Board 8 > In 5 weeks, DC Comics sales are up 37% and Marvel sales are down 18%

(+) Yeah! (+)

Oh I do remember my very first collected edition I bought

Kingdom Come

Best purchase ever? Close

Looking back now, I'm not sure how I became a fan of Superman. The only series I read was my friend's aforementioned Death of Superman, and when I had a choice of going for Batman the Animated Series comics or Supes's, I went with Supes. Not sure why I skipped Bats and went with the big blue
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

Yeah my first comics were also the death of superman and the Reign of the Supermen.

I have an unusually high affinity for Superboy as a result.

Yeah whatever happened to the good Superboy :(

For what its worth i actually do like Jon - but thats me desperately wanting to still like SOMETHING about the superman comics after they stripped everything i like about the character out of him with rebirth.
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Do I really need to explain why this is SJW related? Marvel went full liberal and replaced all their main characters with SJW archetypes, and when you pair that with shitty writing you get bad sales. This isn't hard to figure out.

Literally everything that goes full leftist loses a potion of their audience. People aren't reading comic books for a political opinion.

I wish I could afford comics still. It's too expensive of a hobby, which is sad.

Anyway, was the fact that Marvel doesn't have a major event going on attribute to their decrease in sales? Civil War 2 just ended, right?
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As a rookie comic reader at the time, I definitely didn't "get" Kingdom Come beyond the amazing art.
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UltiXX posted...

People aren't reading comic books for a political opinion.

Yeah no one likes stuff like Watchmen
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scarletspeed7 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

My first comics I ever read were The Technisis Imperitive and the Titans volume it spawned, and Identity Crisis.

I recognize now both are terrible. They are still 5/5 top tier comics to me regardless.

Technis Imperative was a fuckton of fun and I loved the art. Identity Crisis is divisive but it was pretty damn beloved by a lot of readers and drew in tons of readers at the time.

Oh, I'm specifically talking about the melodramatic dead baby soap opera Titans volume it spawned. TI itself is solid even today. Still made me fall in love with Tempest.....which only lead to more pain....

Identity Crisis is a comic that, had I read it when I DID know about these characters, I would have loathed. Since I DIDN'T, and hadn't read comics in general, it was fucking awesooooooooooome. And even going back, even knowing now, it's too late. Still awesooooooome.
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UltiXX posted...

Do I really need to explain why this is SJW related? Marvel went full liberal and replaced all their main characters with SJW archetypes, and when you pair that with shitty writing you get bad sales. This isn't hard to figure out.

Literally everything that goes full leftist loses a potion of their audience. People aren't reading comic books for a political opinion.

Scarlet more or less acknowledged this in post 7, actually. Even the fiercest SJW probably wouldn't deny this fully.
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PLEASE everyone ignore that post, don't let him ruin the topic.

scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

Yeah my first comics were also the death of superman and the Reign of the Supermen.

I have an unusually high affinity for Superboy as a result.

Yeah whatever happened to the good Superboy :(

Johns/Manapul's book was to die for.
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Lopen posted...

UltiXX posted...

Do I really need to explain why this is SJW related? Marvel went full liberal and replaced all their main characters with SJW archetypes, and when you pair that with shitty writing you get bad sales. This isn't hard to figure out.

Literally everything that goes full leftist loses a potion of their audience. People aren't reading comic books for a political opinion.

Scarlet more or less acknowledged this in post 7, actually. Even the fiercest SJW probably wouldn't deny this fully.

Hey I just got back from class and saw I was tagged.

UltiXX posted...

Do I really need to explain why this is SJW related? Marvel went full liberal and replaced all their main characters with SJW archetypes, and when you pair that with shitty writing you get bad sales. This isn't hard to figure out.

Literally everything that goes full leftist loses a potion of their audience. People aren't reading comic books for a political opinion.

Yeah no one read Frank Miller's works. Or Alan Moore's works. Or Warren Ellis' works. Or, to an even simpler extent, Judd Winick's works.

Ulti, you are so heavily outclassed here on knowledge of this industry and its readership that I am going to allow you to bow out and not post in this topic again and pretend you didn't do a wrong on the proverbial carpet.
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And then he does deny it now. Strange! Agreeing with Ulti is hard I guess.
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Man whatever happened to Judd Winick
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Lopen posted...

And then he does deny it now. Strange! Agreeing with Ulti is hard I guess.

I was denying his final statement because it is wrong. I didn't respond to his first statement because it was mischaracterized and also wrong.

There were no stereotypes in the writing. I pointed this out very explictly once. The so-called SJW characters, minority characters written by minority writers, were written EXACTLY like middle-aged white guys that they replaced. The only difference is that they were all inexperienced and the writing itself was sub-par. So Ulti is, in fact, wrong. There were no SJW stereotypes. There were only bad characters.
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Eddv posted...

Man whatever happened to Judd Winick

Speedy AIDS
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Eddv posted...

Man whatever happened to Judd Winick

I mean, he SAID he was leaving comics to focus on other stuff, but I really like to pretend that didn't happen.

I think we might be the only Winnick fanboys on the board, though.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Eddv posted...

Man whatever happened to Judd Winick

I mean, he SAID he was leaving comics to focus on other stuff, but I really like to pretend that didn't happen.

I think we might be the only Winnick fanboys on the board, though.

Winick's Exiles, in my opinion, was the last good X-run ever.
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I think you disagree with some of the nuance of what he's saying while still agreeing with the overall idea that the diversity movement was forced and damaging, but would rather pretend you disagree with him completely, which is fine, but I'll still point out you're being silly here.
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Please ignore Lopen's comments, he also will not let it go.

scarletspeed7 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

Eddv posted...

Man whatever happened to Judd Winick

I mean, he SAID he was leaving comics to focus on other stuff, but I really like to pretend that didn't happen.

I think we might be the only Winnick fanboys on the board, though.

Winick's Exiles, in my opinion, was the last good X-run ever.

Are we not including Remender's X-Force?

Because, I mean......Remender's X-Force.
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Probably more the tone than the nuance.

Ultis way sounds hateful whereas scarlets is more regretful.
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Lopen posted...

I think you disagree with some of the nuance of what he's saying while still agreeing with the overall idea that the diversity movement was forced and damaging, but would rather pretend you disagree with him completely, which is fine, but I'll still point out you're being silly here.

It's fair for you to have that point of view, but I think my point and his point are at odds. His point is that the movement itself is bad. Ulti has no idea about the quality of the comics. He saw that someone said they were bad but he will never read them himself so he is perpetuating a belief of which he has no knowledge. My argument is that Ulti is a fool to think he can insert an opinion into the conversation because he knows nothing about it because the details don't jibe with his narrative.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Are we not including Remender's X-Force?

Because, I mean......Remender's X-Force.

Remender's X-Force is good. I guess I would amend my statement to say "great". Exiles was truly great in many respects, unique and original. Remender just told good stories. Not amazing or anything. But compared to the years before and after in the franchise, I would be hard-pressed to say X-Force isn't head and shoulders above the rest.
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this topic is so confusing.

- what's the context? are these sales YOY or month-to month? what's the scale? are we talking units or dollars? Marvel pushed a $10 Spider-Man comic out in March and it was the #1 book in both units and dollars overall, so taking that off the books will naturally lead to some decline if we are talking $ over month-to month. and how does your store compare to the industry at large? it sounds fairly atypical for comic stores, judging from some of the examples you provide. All New Wolverine and Harley Quinn sell a comparable amount of issues, yet are vastly different at your store.
- "bad writing doesn't sell" my dude this is comics we're talking about, if this was a real issue the industry would be dead many times over
- "diversity doesn't sell" this is a strange argument that takes Marvel at their word without analyzing their business model. eddv made two great points earlier, one a likely cause for ever declining numbers from Marvel's relaunch strategy, and the cataclysmic effect that has on what should be bankable books. it also ignores the areas this isn't true and what's driving comic sales growth, like indie books. so, I dunno, I think a more comprehensive analysis is required
- "women don't read or buy as many comic books, to a large degree" this isn't true of reading in general (women read/buy more books than men), and market research into assumed male dominated geeky genres like games or comics or w/e reveal a gender split of anywhere from 35-45% female, so I don't know why we should take your word on it??
- the digital comics industry, sans subscription services like Marvel Unlimited, is on par with the trade paperback industry. this is kind of a big deal. the existence of the TPB market was a huge boon to non-Superhero, indie, and less traditional books in general.

edit: oh i was preparing a meal before posting this and something else happened i see
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iiicon posted...

what's the context?

scarletspeed7 posted...

This is, of course, at the comic shop I'm managing.

Just to show how much of a corrupting influence I am on the shop I run.

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Well disagreeing with the tone is a given as it's an Ulti post.

Anyway yeah I'm not saying he should necessarily feel justified in trying to assess the state of marvel nowadays-- sounds like it could very well be a broken clock thing I was just pointing out that he was closer to agreeing with you than not which I thought was funny-- doubly so given your reaction to the post.
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I read marvel myself I don't read dc

Lopen posted...

Well disagreeing with the tone is a given as it's an Ulti post.

Anyway yeah I'm not saying he should necessarily feel justified in trying to assess the state of marvel nowadays-- sounds like it could very well be a broken clock thing I was just pointing out that he was closer to agreeing with you than not which I thought was funny-- doubly so given your reaction to the post.

Generally speaking I'm going to argue the shit out of anything I even marginally disagree with when it comes to comics because comics are something I actually have a passionate interest in, unlike say politics or Warcraft III (Ulti's normal haunts). And I hope you don't think my natural argumentative nature is reflection of dislike for you or anything. I just like to debate and discuss.
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Yeah I can respect that. Like I kinda do the same thing to Ulti when he tries to gloat about being right about Mario beating Samus when I was the main one on the board who was actually right in the right way about it. (he had Mario just barely winning I had him clobbering her 60-40 and had like pie chartz and crap explaining why) Or Marvel. Or Warcraft. Or whatever else I feel I have a decent amount of knowledge above him on. But at the same time I do like pointing out when Ulti isn't entirely offbase, particularly when you've got a band of guys trying to immediately rebuke him.

Also I don't know if you realize who you're talking to, but I'm a man who likes to argue and I don't take it personally in the least. Nor should you if I come off as a jerk once in a while when discussing something with you. And for the record I actually enjoy your posts for the most part!

... unless said posts are trying in a farcical matter to say I shouldn't complain about something Smackdown! Live did, cause screw those posts. I'll complain about what I bloody well please.
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Lopen posted...

Also I don't know if you realize who you're talking to, but I'm a man who likes to argue and I don't take it personally in the least. Nor should you if I come off as a jerk once in a while when discussing something with you. And for the record I actually enjoy your posts for the most part!

... unless said posts are trying in a farcical matter to say I shouldn't complain about something Smackdown! Live did, cause screw those posts. I'll complain about what I bloody well please.

That's cool, I mainly said it just because I didn't want for someone who I thought was providing a lot of great discussion to get the wrong impression.

Also, lol sorry about the Smackdown posts. Sometimes I'm unpredictable in the wrestling chat. You never know what you'll get.
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You fuckers think that just because a guy reads comics he can't start some shit?!
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Yeah. I don't really have a lot to contribute to comic book discussion topics unless we're talking about Spider Man's clone saga/maximum carnage or Wolverine & Gambit: Victims (...what?) since as said filthy casual but hey that doesn't stop me from reading and posting cause the medium has always interested me more than my readership would indicate.

But maybe I will in fact read a Snyder saga from Bats in its entirety soon just so I have something relevant from the past 10 years to discuss. You never know.
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You really should if you have any interest, it's very good.
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If I may recommend a personal favorite it's GEOFF JOHNS' JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA.
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It's mostly finding the time.

For the record what issues specifically and order would you recommend reading this stuff in. Googling "snyder Batman reading order" has lead to some mixed opinions and also I'm not sure opinions are phrased for someone who hasn't read anything Batman since the early 90s.
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The reading order is pretty simple - just read the batman trades.
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Oh yeah I kinda forgot those compilations were a thing, despite the clone saga spidey thing being read in that form

So like just google the trade or trades written by Snyder and go on my way then
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Lopen posted...

So like just google the trade or trades written by Snyder and go on my way then

Yeah, it's the simplest way. His whole run is complete in trades so far.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

There were no SJW stereotypes.

Go on Google and search "SJW Marvel". 647,000 results, many of which are articles where Marvel themselves admits they have to scale back the propaganda due to rapidly declining sales.

I might be outclassed in comic knowledge (nor do I care), but no one here outclasses me in political trends.

You aren't reading correctly. They said there were SJW stereotypes. There ended up being none. Don't go and search SJW Marvel. Go read a fucking comic.
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So since we're talking about our first comics...

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/0/77/893496-3281_4_220.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/0/4/50102-2870-65558-1-spectacular-spider-m.jpg

My first comic of any kind, and my first superhero comic. Both purchased from random newsstands to keep me occupied while my parents had stuff to do. It's a shame they're not readily available for kids like that anymore, though I guess with smartphones now they might not move copies even if they were. Certainly not at $4-$5 an issue. But that was my comics-buying experience for many years, just buying a couple issues for a few months in a row of whatever looked good at the newsstand.

What really made me a diehard Marvel guy for decades though was the 1990 series Marvel Trading Cards. I didn't have access to back issues but reading all the information on these cards, I felt like I was familiar with all of them so I wasn't put off by any comic I might pick up. No matter what it was I knew who the major characters were, what their powers were, what they were like, where they came from. What should have been the DC equivalent, all their TV properties (Batman TAS, Adam West, Super Friends, etc), just reinforced the idea that DC comics were not for me because anytime I tried to read an issue it was completely different in tone and content. I think that's a big part of why Rebirth worked for me, it feels like there was a real effort to make things accessible for people like me who were only familiar with DC through stuff like the animated movies and the CW shows, or just a general awareness of the major characters.
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One of the earliest comics I remember reading is the Death of Superman arc. One of my relatives (not sure which) had a collection and while he wasn't actively buying and hadn't for a few years he did go out and buy that.

He also had Simonson's Thor which was probably the first thing I actively read, coming off of the episode of The Incredible Hulk (my favorite at the time) with Thor.
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Also I think that episode of TIH might have actually been one of the movies.
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Murphiroth posted...

One of the earliest comics I remember reading is the Death of Superman arc. One of my relatives (not sure which) had a collection and while he wasn't actively buying and hadn't for a few years he did go out and buy that.

That was the story that got me into comics in the first place. Had bought it for someone as a present, started flipping through it, and then got hooked.

Eddv posted...

The reading order is pretty simple - just read the batman trades.

It's all in the New 52 trades EXCEPT Black Mirror which was a post-Crisis run on Detective Comics. Don't forget about it! It's not related to the rest of his stuff but it's good.
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Super late to this topic, but I'm actually one of those people mentioned in the first few posts who transitioned from watching the movies to becoming a regular comics reader.

This was about 3-4 years ago, and I initially was more interested in reading Marvel because of the MCU, until I realized how non-newbie friendly comics were in general. I'm the type of person who likes to start things from the beginning, and while that obviously wasn't feasible with comics, I seen that DC had the New52, and that I could essentially get in on a "beginning", with the flagship titles being approximately 30 issues in, and stuff like Deathstroke and Harley Quinn just launching.

The first comics I ever bought were the first 6-7 New52 Harley Quinn issues, New52 Deathstroke #1, and The Court Of Owls trade.

By the time I had caught up in everything I was following, and wanted to branch out into Marvel, they had already begun the process of the constant reboots, which turned me off completely. I wasn't interested in having to start over from #1 constantly, and also wasn't interested in new takes on characters. Female Thor can be cool, but as someone who wanted to get into it, that wasn't the take on the character that I was looking for.

So yeah, despite being first interested in Marvel, I now only read DC. I'm currently pulling 11 runs and most of the event stuff so I've got some general knowledge on current DC, although I'm about a month behind on actually reading everything.

I've been working on catching up on some of the most iconic Batman stories as well, and just got started on Morrison's run with Batman & Son/The Black Glove.
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Also this topic has been a great read as someone who has become extremely interested in the behind the scenes of comic shops and how the numbers work.
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davidponte posted...

I've been working on catching up on some of the most iconic Batman stories as well, and just got started on Morrison's run with Batman & Son/The Black Glove.

Cool to see how your comics interest has developed, everyone is so different. If you're ever looking for recommendations I've actually read every single issue of Batman and Detective Comics as well as most of the other Bat-titles out there and I'd be happy to give some stories if you ever want them.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

One of those buddies claims to have the first edition of Superman, which he says is a big deal but it's been opened and read. He says he lost 3 million dollars by opening it but he would never have sold it anyway. That seems ridiculous to me but what do I know?

I highly doubt he has a first edition of Superman unopened because those don't exist. They literally don't. They were sold directly to newstands back then. It can't not have weathering. Also 3 million is high for a Superman #1. He might mean Action Comics #1 which STILL seems high for a price drop.
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