Board 8 > In 5 weeks, DC Comics sales are up 37% and Marvel sales are down 18%

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

I actually read a What If story last night where Red Skull was taking over the world and was like "Welcome to the Fourth Reich!"

I'm trying to avoid bringing Red Skull himself into this because I don't think it goes anywhere.

Also that's the Fourth Reich! Totally different from the Third Reich. Must not be a Nazi.
---

Kenri posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I actually read a What If story last night where Red Skull was taking over the world and was like "Welcome to the Fourth Reich!"

I'm trying to avoid bringing Red Skull himself into this because I don't think it goes anywhere.

Also that's the Fourth Reich! Totally different from the Third Reich. Must not be a Nazi.

Look, you're going to get nowhere with me, because you reduce characters and concepts to large stereotyped groups of individuals. It's pretty recidivist and it's exactly the problem that is perpetuated by people like Trump. Let fiction have nuance. Let fiction be cool. Don't assume that because things have superficial similarities, that they are the same.
---

Kenri posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

It's fair to characterize them as Nazis if you want to be ignorant of the nuances of the comics is what I'm getting act. You are doing yourself a disservice to dumb down the concept. HYDRA is better at the game than the Nazis because HYDRA used the Nazis until it wasn't profitable then cut and ran.

Again though, you're not winning someone over who doesn't appreciate the idea of Captain America, the most anti-fascist, anti-nazi character in popular culture, being retconned into a fascist who is "better at the game than the Nazis". It doesn't matter Hydra isn't part of ONE PARTICULAR group of Nazis. You're still describing a group who are written as Nazis in a general sense.

I think its better understood in this context - those complaints are WHY THIS STORY WORKS.

Like if seeing Cap fighting for Hydra didn't on some deep level disturb the audience then its just some standard villain on villain intrigue in his book.
---

Like the argument scarlet is making is only worth making insofar as fending off accusation of antisemitic sentiment on thr page which i assure you isn't there.
---

So what exactly IS the "Cap is HYDRA" storyline? I remember reading the first issue and thinking it was just some gotcha thing with mind control or something that would be over in a few issues, but it sounds like its still going? I lapsed out of comics around that time so I know I should probably just read it, but I'm lazy.

Also...is it actually any good? Or just a shock value storyline?
---

Eddv posted...

Like the argument scarlet is making is only worth making insofar as fending off accusation of antisemitic sentiment on thr page which i assure you isn't there.

That's the main reason I'm making it.
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So what exactly IS the "Cap is HYDRA" storyline? I remember reading the first issue and thinking it was just some gotcha thing with mind control or something that would be over in a few issues, but it sounds like its still going? I lapsed out of comics around that time so I know I should probably just read it, but I'm lazy.

Also...is it actually any good? Or just a shock value storyline?

Its like....better than most of marvels current output but thats not sayin much.

Its gonna be the basis for their next big event so YMWV
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So what exactly IS the "Cap is HYDRA" storyline? I remember reading the first issue and thinking it was just some gotcha thing with mind control or something that would be over in a few issues, but it sounds like its still going? I lapsed out of comics around that time so I know I should probably just read it, but I'm lazy.

Also...is it actually any good? Or just a shock value storyline?

It does involve mind control. It's okay. It's not the best writing in the world. It's better than all of the X-Books.
---

Scarlet, not to say you're WRONG, but whether being HYDRA TECHNICALLY doesn't make Cap a Nazi doesn't really matter. HYDRA is associated with Nazi's, and to the general public and casual fan there is no difference, no matter how much "writer" Nick Spencer tries to spin it. Until Cap being HYRDA is retconned away, people are still going to be calling him a Nazi. The temperature of the room of social media is pretty unanimously referring to Spencer as a "Nazi fetishest", and HYDRA Cap being able to lift Mjolnir while non-HYDRA Cap could not has really....hammered that into people's minds.

The way Nick Spencer acts about it on social media hasn't helped one bit. He certainly does not have the chips to handle the weight of the story he's trying to tell here compared to some of the other modern legends....which he very much is not one of.

He's been trying to ride that Morning Glories cred for far too long.
---

It's weird to me how much real world history still happens in the Marvel Universe

Like, after fucking Galactus almost ate the planet, would we still be screwing around with things like US involvement in Vietnam?

Very appreciative of how Watchmen handles the historical existence of Dr Manhattan
---

Well my response for that is that I don't follow social media at all when it comes to comic books so I only base my opinions on comic books.

HYDRA is HYDRA to me. Nick Spencer is a guy who writes comics, not a guy who posts on social media.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Look, you're going to get nowhere with me, because you reduce characters and concepts to large stereotyped groups of individuals. It's pretty recidivist and it's exactly the problem that is perpetuated by people like Trump. Let fiction have nuance. Let fiction be cool. Don't assume that because things have superficial similarities, that they are the same.

I mean, you're the one taking fiction at face value instead of analyzing its connections to real life events and groups. Superficial similarities aren't superficial in fiction -- fiction conserves detail, so something "superficial" was purposely done with authorial intent behind it.

It's like when a story gives the US a black president whose last name is Omaha. Yeah, you can say that in-universe he's a clearly distinct individual with his own history and everything. But also, you know exactly who that's supposed to be, right?
---

Jakyl25 posted...

It's weird to me how much real world history still happens in the Marvel Universe

Like, after fucking Galactus almost ate the planet, would we still be screwing around with things like US involvement in Vietnam?

Very appreciative of how Watchmen handles the historical existence of Dr Manhattan

Planetary tackles this really well by having the main character rail against the villains (who are based on the Fantastic Four). He tells them that with the technology they create, the world should be at a place of progress far beyond where it is now.

It's a fair point. Mister Fantastic can cure diseases, create machines that heal injuries quickly without any real cost aside from powering a machine, build flying cars, create portals to other dimensions, etc.

What is J. Jonah Jameson doing daily? Driving to work in a regular car, ending up in the hospital for weeks on end due to injuries at times, living the same life as everyone else.

Fuck Mister Fantastic.
---

Kenri posted...

It's like when a story gives the US a black president whose last name is Omaha. Yeah, you can say that in-universe he's a clearly distinct individual with his own history and everything. But also, you know exactly who that's supposed to be, right?

"HYDRA are Nazi allegories"
"They can't be because there are also actual Nazis"

Is basically the volley of this argument
---

Eddv posted...

Its gonna be the basis for their next big event so YMWV

Ignoring the last 3 years I haven't followed, I haven't thought a Marvel event book was good since....fucking Necrosha, and even that might not be as good as I remember.

I mean, I'm the guy who hates Civil War and thinks Mark Millar post Grant Morrison ghost writing is a worthless hack, so take that as you will.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

It's a fair point. Mister Fantastic can cure diseases, create machines that heal injuries quickly without any real cost aside from powering a machine, build flying cars, create portals to other dimensions, etc.

What is J. Jonah Jameson doing daily? Driving to work in a regular car, ending up in the hospital for weeks on end due to injuries at times, living the same life as everyone else.

f*** Mister Fantastic.

I feel like this is the basis of so many modern takes on Doctor Doom
---

Jakyl25 posted...

"HYDRA are Nazi allegories"
"They can't be because there are also actual Nazis"

Is basically the volley of this argument

Which is super weird to me because like... there are literally multiple groups of Nazis in the world right now, in 2017?? They haven't gone away and they've never been homogeneous...
---

I'm actually mad at Hickman for making me like Fantastic Four.

Because fuck the Fantastic Four.
---

Kenri posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Look, you're going to get nowhere with me, because you reduce characters and concepts to large stereotyped groups of individuals. It's pretty recidivist and it's exactly the problem that is perpetuated by people like Trump. Let fiction have nuance. Let fiction be cool. Don't assume that because things have superficial similarities, that they are the same.

I mean, you're the one taking fiction at face value instead of analyzing its connections to real life events and groups. Superficial similarities aren't superficial in fiction -- fiction conserves detail, so something "superficial" was purposely done with authorial intent behind it.

It's like when a story gives the US a black president whose last name is Omaha. Yeah, you can say that in-universe he's a clearly distinct individual with his own history and everything. But also, you know exactly who that's supposed to be, right?

Okay the difference is that HYDRA was not created to serve as a Nazi analogue. It was created to serve as a shadowy organization that had some ties to the Nazis in order to provoke a reaction from fans. Yes, there are connections to real life events in comics, but we're talking about the in-universe origins of the HYDRA organization. And they started in ancient Egypt. And they existed in feudal Japan. Those sound like connecting HYDRA to the real world Nazis!

What Nick Spencer wants to convey is none of my interest. My interest is in comics as a historian of that continuity. And there are Nazis that are positioned differently than HYDRA in those selfsame comics.

So, my question is, why are you against me attempt to bring nuance to the part of the comics that will matter later - the continuity? Because, in the end, that's all that matters at Marvel.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

It's weird to me how much real world history still happens in the Marvel Universe

Like, after fucking Galactus almost ate the planet, would we still be screwing around with things like US involvement in Vietnam?

Very appreciative of how Watchmen handles the historical existence of Dr Manhattan

The problem is both DC and Marvel try to have these crazy universes that are also grounded in reality. But at least DC reboots enough so they don't have to deal with the fact that this one time, they gave Adolf Hitler the Spear of Destiny so that Superman couldn't go punch him during WW2.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Kenri posted...

It's like when a story gives the US a black president whose last name is Omaha. Yeah, you can say that in-universe he's a clearly distinct individual with his own history and everything. But also, you know exactly who that's supposed to be, right?

"HYDRA are Nazi allegories"
"They can't be because there are also actual Nazis"

Is basically the volley of this argument

The basic volley of my argument is that Captain America fucking murdered Red Skull because he was NOT a Nazi and he WAS a member of HYDRA. He was trying to protect HYDRA from the Nazis.
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It's weird to me how much real world history still happens in the Marvel Universe

Like, after fucking Galactus almost ate the planet, would we still be screwing around with things like US involvement in Vietnam?

Very appreciative of how Watchmen handles the historical existence of Dr Manhattan

The problem is both DC and Marvel try to have these crazy universes that are also grounded in reality. But at least DC reboots enough so they don't have to deal with the fact that this one time, they gave Adolf Hitler the Spear of Destiny so that Superman couldn't go punch him during WW2.

Actually, this was part of a very beloved series that did a great job streamlining the history of Earth-2. All-Star Squadron is pretty well-regarded for how it made continuity make sense.
---

Also, Kenri, you and I must come from different points of view, because I believe in New Criticism as a theory for reading, which means that any authorial intent is irrelevant to my understanding of a narrative.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

The basic volley of my argument is that Captain America f***ing murdered Red Skull because he was NOT a Nazi and he WAS a member of HYDRA. He was trying to protect HYDRA from the Nazis.

Not really relevant to Kenri's argument now. And what he's arguing really isn't relevant on your level.

The argument was basically done I think at "Yes, HYDRA are fascists."

That should have satisfied things at both levels.

I think what Kenri is missing is that fascism is a wider concept than specific groups with their own unique bigotries. It doesn't matter if HYDRA are specifically copy/paste Nazi analogues or not, because the role they DO serve (and the role that Nazis should historically serve in the real world) is the fallacy of that way of thought.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Also, Kenri, you and I must come from different points of view, because I believe in New Criticism as a theory for reading, which means that any authorial intent is irrelevant to my understanding of a narrative.

It's irrelevant to my analysis of the narrative, hence why I'm saying they're Nazis even when the text (and therefore, presumably, the author intent) says they're not. But it's still relevant in the sense that it exists, i.e. fiction does not just "happen", it's created by someone.

Jakyl25 posted...

I think what Kenri is missing is that fascism is a wider concept than specific groups with their own unique bigotries.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here? Like yeah it's a wider concept, but also we only have a handful of "true" examples of it, all of them from Europe in the 1930s and 40s. It's hard to talk about fascism without just talking about specific groups, which were often at odds with each other nonetheless.

scarletspeed7 posted...

So, my question is, why are you against me attempt to bring nuance to the part of the comics that will matter later - the continuity? Because, in the end, that's all that matters at Marvel.

If I'm understanding you right, I'm not against it - it's your interest, have fun with it, why would I be against it? - but it's also completely irrelevant to what I'm arguing.
---

Kenri posted...

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here? Like yeah it's a wider concept, but also we only have a handful of "true" examples of it, all of them from Europe in the 1930s and 40s. It's hard to talk about fascism without just talking about specific groups, which were often at odds with each other nonetheless.

I'm attempting to say that HYDRA can be a Nazi analogue, in the sense that they're all fascists, but it's not specifically a Nazi analogue
---

Kenri posted...

It's irrelevant to my analysis of the narrative, hence why I'm saying they're Nazis even when the text (and therefore, presumably, the author intent) says they're not. But it's still relevant in the sense that it exists, i.e. fiction does not just "happen", it's created by someone.

New Criticism would say that if the text says they are not Nazis, you have to take it at face value. That's not authorial intent. Authorial intent is to look at what the author has said about his work and disregard it. But, if in the text, they have Captain America murder a Nazi in order to protect HYDRA from Nazi interference, that is enough to qualify HYDRA as sufficiently different from Nazis.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Kenri posted...

It's like when a story gives the US a black president whose last name is Omaha. Yeah, you can say that in-universe he's a clearly distinct individual with his own history and everything. But also, you know exactly who that's supposed to be, right?

"HYDRA are Nazi allegories"
"They can't be because there are also actual Nazis"

Is basically the volley of this argument

The basic volley of my argument is that Captain America fucking murdered Red Skull because he was NOT a Nazi and he WAS a member of HYDRA. He was trying to protect HYDRA from the Nazis.

Stalin had Trotsky killed but they were both still Soviets so I don't know what you think your point is here.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

New Criticism would say that if the text says they are not Nazis, you have to take it at face value.

That doesn't sound like criticism at all. That just sounds like reading.

But hey at least we both don't give a shit what Nick Spencer says! Common ground!
---

Kenri posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

New Criticism would say that if the text says they are not Nazis, you have to take it at face value.

That doesn't sound like criticism at all. That just sounds like reading.

But hey at least we both don't give a shit what Nick Spencer says! Common ground!

And yet, you're not.
---

For what it's worth as a dirty casual whose experience with Captain America is 90% MCU + Captain America and the Avengers for the NES + Marvel vs Capcom, I never really thought of Hydra as Nazis. Just kinda thought they were generally evil dudes out for world domination who were fine with co-operating with Nazis if they served their purposes. They're about as much Nazis as the non-Germany Axis powers were.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I'm attempting to say that HYDRA can be a Nazi analogue, in the sense that they're all fascists, but it's not specifically a Nazi analogue

Ah I get it. It seems like splitting hairs to me since the Venn diagram of neo-Nazis and wannabe fascists in 2017 is basically just a circle, but your point is well-taken, especially if you just mean specifically German National Socialists.
---

I have to agree with the sentiment that this is argument seems less about HYRDA being Nazis but more about people wanting to call all fascists Nazis.
---

Now all that being said correct me if I'm wrong but I think this argument stemmed from

"It's stupid there's a storyline where Captain America is working with Nazis"
and we were corrected by
"It's HYDRA he's working with not Nazis"

Which frankly doesn't really make a difference on the "wtf is this" scale to me. On paper either one kinda seems like it's something Cap shouldn't have done no matter what the circumstances, even if mind control or whatever is involved, it kinda just taints the image of Cap more than it should be. There are just certain things certain characters shouldn't do ever no matter how far you twist the narrative to reach that point and be "justified" in doing so.
---

I dunno man, there's a pretty good comic about Superman being the leader of the USSR. Not technically main continuity, which is probably what actually made the problem worse for Cap, but it helps too that the writing is good thanks to Grant Morrison
---

Eh Superman's moral code isn't really as much at odds with that kinda thing imo. Superman isn't like, "FREEDOM above all else" he's just trying to be a good guy.

It'd be more like if you had Superman murder Lois Lane or something.
---

Superman's also had a long history of being a potential villain (even a potential dictator), hasn't he?
---

Between out-of-continuity stories and obvious knockoff characters, I've had enough "what if Superman turned evil?" storylines to last several lifetimes.
---

Lopen posted...

Eh Superman's moral code isn't really as much at odds with that kinda thing imo. Superman isn't like, "FREEDOM above all else" he's just trying to be a good guy.

It'd be more like if you had Superman murder Lois Lane or something.

Which is the entire premise of the Injustice Video Games!
---

Well screw the injustice games then. Though also as Hero said non-canon spinoff status makes pretty much any stupid idea more forgivable
---

UltimaterializerX posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

There were no SJW stereotypes.

Go on Google and search "SJW Marvel". 647,000 results

Go on google and search "Earth is flat". 128,000,000 results.

https://www.google.com.br/search?q=earth+is+flat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gws_rd=cr&ei=MmsCWaDMAsqIwgS94bLABA

Proof that the Earth is flat.
---

Eddv posted...

Lopen posted...

Eh Superman's moral code isn't really as much at odds with that kinda thing imo. Superman isn't like, "FREEDOM above all else" he's just trying to be a good guy.

It'd be more like if you had Superman murder Lois Lane or something.

Which is the entire premise of the Injustice Video Games!

He didn't know it was Lois because he had been gassed and was hallucinating Doomsday I think. Her death also caused a nuke to destroy metropolis sending Supes down his dark path. It is a little different than ret conning captain America to the point where he was always a secret member of hydra working against shield.
---

Yeah I just read a bit of the injustice plot summary. That's actually way different in that he's basically tricked into doing it. Also more acceptable because it turns Superman into Dark Superman which splinters into an alternate universe kinda thing, and Superman going dark and fundamentally changing and being traumatized after that actually makes sense.

I mean it's stupid sure but given the premise is "Superman turns evil" I'm actually fairly okay with the execution there.

If say, he'd been mind controlled and ordered to kill Lois that'd have been less acceptable as he should just deus ex machina his way out of it I think rather than doing it. If he'd willingly done it in any circumstance, which is more akin to Cap's thing as I understand it, it'd be even worse to the point I'd argue if you're going main universe no spinoffs you've basically ruined Superman beyond repair without some sorta retcon at that point.
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I dunno man, there's a pretty good comic about Superman being the leader of the USSR. Not technically main continuity, which is probably what actually made the problem worse for Cap, but it helps too that the writing is good thanks to Grant Morrison

Whaaaaat naaaaaaw that was totally Millar by himself.
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I dunno man, there's a pretty good comic about Superman being the leader of the USSR. Not technically main continuity, which is probably what actually made the problem worse for Cap, but it helps too that the writing is good thanks to Grant Morrison

It isn't by Morrison

Morrison and Millar weren't even talking to each other at that point
---

Injustice's story still really sucks.

Just like Injustice's art direction and gameplay.

(I do not like Injustice)
---

I think you're doing the game an injustice.
---

I think the game IS an injustice
---

I think it's just an average game honestly. But if you want to do an alternate DC timeline, there are cooler ways to do it.
---

Really? Morrison's gone on record saying he gave Millar the ending. I've always assumed they were still fairly close at the time.

I know the rest of the book was Millar but ever since I read some of his other works, RS felt like he was being reigned in. I will be the first to admit I'm biased against the guy, though.
---