Board 8 > In 5 weeks, DC Comics sales are up 37% and Marvel sales are down 18%

(+) Yeah! (+)

This is, of course, at the comic shop I'm managing.

Just to show how much of a corrupting influence I am on the shop I run.

Of course, Magic and (ugh) Yu-Gi-Oh outsell comics like crazy here, but I'm working on narrowing the gap.

I also want to point out that we sold 4 copies of X-Men Gold #1. And all four of them were after the art controversy. Here's a cool comparison. We sold 8 copies of Cave Carson has a Cybernetic Eye. The most recent issue. EIGHT. It's in the bottom five sellers from DC for us. And it doubled the sales of the new flagship X-Men title. Marvel sales are just tumbling at my shop and apparently have been well-before I started there. Meanwhile, DC sales were on a major climb. I did a special discount event during the pre-release for the most recent Magic set where, if you pre-ordered for the actual release you also got a 20% discount off of a comic. What was telling that most of those sales went to DC titles and not to indies and CERTAINLY not to Marvel.

Most of my Marvel sales are for the "goofy" and "offbeat" titles like the Unreadable Girl Squirrel and Gwenpool. I can't push regular Avengers and X-Men titles to save my life.

Is this interesting to anyone here? I don't know. But some people read comics and might be interested.
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Speculative explanation from someone who hasn't read comics in like 15 years and as such has no idea of current quality levels:

You can get your Marvel fix with the MCU

You have any hope for good DC stuff you have to read the comics.

Whether or not that actually is a factor I'll leave to the experts but I'm sticking to that theory for now.
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That's pretty much completely unrelated.

Comics sales have only once in history spiked for a movie or dipped for a movie. They are entirely independent.

Think of it this way: A comic reader is a superhero movie watcher, but a superhero movie watcher is not a comic reader. Comic readers break into two categories: those who follow properties and those who follow creators. There are no longer any casual readers that filter in from the entertainment side of these companies.
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Is Marvel Unlimited a factor? I feel like I'll never have to buy a Marvel comic again. I don't mind being a few months behind.

I know Marvel themselves have said that making their comics more diverse hasn't paid off in sales. Has the shift away from that started already or no?
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From what I understand, DC is in a huge renaissance of talent and bringing back all of the retconned classic stories and erasing New52 stuff, while Marvel literally turned Captain America into a straight up Nazi, so I'm not too surprised.

Even having no ears to the ground with comics right now, both of these things are everywhere for me.
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Well let me tell ya as a filthy casual it's totally a factor for me. If I were to ever get into comics again it'd be Batman 100% when it used to be more of a mix.

Then again filthy casual comic book readers probably don't exist anymore and probably haven't for a long time.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Is Marvel Unlimited a factor? I feel like I'll never have to buy a Marvel comic again. I don't mind being a few months behind.

I know Marvel themselves have said that making their comics more diverse hasn't paid off in sales. Has the shift away from that started already or no?

Unlimited may be a factor, but I haven't had anyone say why they were ending their subscriptions at the store due to that, and I've not heard of that before. What I do hear is that people like actually being caught up and the only way to do that is to read physical comics. I also a hear a lot of people who want physical copies of what they read that they enjoy.

Marvel's diversity movement is what has bombed. It has nothing to do with diversity and everything to do with the fact that even these minority writers they brought in to write minority characters make their characters still sound like middle-aged white guys. Except these are middle-aged white guy voices attached to characters who still don't know how to be heroes, and quite frankly no one wants to read the story of a hero learning to be a hero anymore.
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LapisLazuli posted...

From what I understand, DC is in a huge renaissance of talent and bringing back all of the retconned classic stories and erasing New52 stuff, while Marvel literally turned Captain America into a straight up Nazi, so I'm not too surprised.

Even having no ears to the ground with comics right now, both of these things are everywhere for me.

There's a pretty big element of truth to the first part, and the second part is being softened up.

Lopen posted...

Well let me tell ya as a filthy casual it's totally a factor for me. If I were to ever get into comics again it'd be Batman 100% when it used to be more of a mix.

Then again filthy casual comic book readers probably don't exist anymore and probably haven't for a long time.

A casual reader really doesn't exist. At least not where comic shops are concerned. I get NEW readers, but they quickly become regulars. The five new subscribers I've created have all immediately started to make weekly trips to the store (which is fantastic).

Let me amend by saying that it may be a factor for YOU, but it isn't at all a factor for a large enough segment of the population to be o fnote. It honestly sounds like an oddball reason to not read a comic since neither company writes comics that are much like their film counterparts.
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Right but my question was, has the Marvel course correction started yet?
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I have another question as a former comic shop customer

What is even the point of being open on non-Wednesdays <_<
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Jakyl25 posted...

Right but my question was, has the Marvel course correction started yet?

Maybe? We have to see what is happening with this Alex Ross-related mini-series that's coming soon. It looks like it's going to put the old characters back in place with the new ones alongside of them.
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Jakyl25 posted...

I have another question as a former comic shop customer

What is even the point of being open on non-Wednesdays <_<

Well for us we host events of all sorts throughout the week for our card game customers as well as D&D groups who like to play at the shop, and of course we have customers coming in looking for specific comics, new customers, customers looking for cards or just who like to hang out. I'm pretty entertaining and I know some customers come in just to chat really (and they end up spending a few bucks by the time they leave).
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Oh, yeah, I wasn't trying to say "it's a factor for me" as an actual argument. I accept I'm an anomaly.

Just saying that I got the theory from my personal feelings on it, I guess. The more available good content for comic book universes that exist that aren't comic book based there are, the less likely I am to buy comic books. That's just the way of it for me.
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Lopen posted...

Oh, yeah, I wasn't trying to say "it's a factor for me" as an actual argument. I accept I'm an anomaly.

Just saying that I got the theory from my personal feelings on it, I guess. The more available good content for comic book universes that exist that aren't comic book based there are, the less likely I am to buy comic books. That's just the way of it for me.

That's certainly a unique reason, but I've seen worse.

Legitimately though, since you mentioned Batman, there are so many great Batman stories in the last 10 years that you would have no problem finding good stuff to read in the franchise.
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How is All New Wolverine doing? Compared to other Marvel titles and overall?
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I have another question as a former comic shop customer

What is even the point of being open on non-Wednesdays <_<

Well for us we host events of all sorts throughout the week for our card game customers as well as D&D groups who like to play at the shop, and of course we have customers coming in looking for specific comics, new customers, customers looking for cards or just who like to hang out. I'm pretty entertaining and I know some customers come in just to chat really (and they end up spending a few bucks by the time they leave).

Yeah that's a good response.

I've seen independent video game stores add dedicated nights for CCG and tabletop gaming to stay afloat

Those CCG people can be big spenders!
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Like I think I was at my strongest with comic books in the late 90s/early 00s and the early 90s.

Really liked the X-Men and Batman cartoons as a kid so they sorta sated me then (strangely I mostly read the archie Sonic comics while these were going). Then for a while, we had a golden age of Marvel movies + the two great Nolan Batman movies (screw Rises) and I was like "hell yeah"

Now I'm sorta getting an itch cause Batman hasn't had anything worthwhile in quite some time. Marvel movies still as good as ever but yeah.
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redrocket_pub posted...

How is All New Wolverine doing? Compared to other Marvel titles and overall?

Compared to other Marvel titles, average. It started strong (as did most #1s), and dropped precipitously by issue 4. Then it leveled off with a low teens in sales. This seems to be the trend for most of the mainline Marvel titles. The unique stuff always sells better.
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@UltiXX

Don't miss your chance to explain how this is due to SJWs!
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scarletspeed7 posted...

redrocket_pub posted...

How is All New Wolverine doing? Compared to other Marvel titles and overall?

Compared to other Marvel titles, average. It started strong (as did most #1s), and dropped precipitously by issue 4. Then it leveled off with a low teens in sales. This seems to be the trend for most of the mainline Marvel titles. The unique stuff always sells better.

How good or bad is low teens?
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Lopen posted...

Now I'm sorta getting an itch cause Batman hasn't had anything worthwhile in quite some time. Marvel movies still as good as ever but yeah.

Well, if you have a chance, pick up one of the Scott Snyder Batman stories. The feel of his writing is so far outside of the scope of normal Batman writing. Grant Morrison also did a great run starting around 2007-ish. But Snyder has pretty much become THE premiere DC writer with his work on the Batman titles. I never get complaints about his work.
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redrocket_pub posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

redrocket_pub posted...

How is All New Wolverine doing? Compared to other Marvel titles and overall?

Compared to other Marvel titles, average. It started strong (as did most #1s), and dropped precipitously by issue 4. Then it leveled off with a low teens in sales. This seems to be the trend for most of the mainline Marvel titles. The unique stuff always sells better.

How good or bad is low teens?

So Justice League and Batman are my top selling regulars at 92 and 86 per issue on average respectively.

My current highest seller, Frank Miller's Dark Knight III, sits sometimes as high as 100. We sell 20 of the deluxe versions with the hardcovers alone.

But in terms of Marvel, my top seller, Spider-Gwen, is at 33.
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I'm also going to take this chance to plug Grayson. It's not Batman, but it's Bat-family, and was also incredible. Everyone loves Dick.

And if we're going back to 2007, Paul Dini had a good run on Detective Comics around then.
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Scarlet, is Geoff Johns doing anything right now? :/
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LapisLazuli posted...

Scarlet, is Geoff Johns doing anything right now? :/

He's the CCO. He's behind the scenes now; honestly it works better. We've got a lot of great, fresh voices in DC. Either new to DC or new to comics.
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Did you sell any X-Men Blues?

As for X-Men Gold sales stinker. Maybe it's because Kitty is the leader. She's the same annoying person she was back in All-New X-Men volume 1.
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My current highest seller, Frank Miller's Dark Knight III, sits sometimes as high as 100. We sell 20 of the deluxe versions with the hardcovers alone.

Is that...actually good? After The Dark Knight Rides Again and some other questionable titles, I thought Miller had been mostly dismissed as falling hard down to the joke tier of comic writers...
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OH god, Miller did a DK3??

Is it...as "Miller" as you'd expect at this point?
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psaltery posted...

Did you sell any X-Men Blues?

As for X-Men Gold sales stinker. Maybe it's because Kitty is the leader. She's the same annoying person she was back in All-New X-Men volume 1.

X-Men Blue sold 10 copies at issue one.

I can't quite quantify the look on the faces of my Marvel readers whenever they talk about upcoming news. They just... don't care anymore. Whereas DC fans groan about some stuff but still have a smile and still say they'll pick up a copy.
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What exactly is Marvel doing wrong?
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redrocket_pub posted...

My current highest seller, Frank Miller's Dark Knight III, sits sometimes as high as 100. We sell 20 of the deluxe versions with the hardcovers alone.

Is that...actually good? After The Dark Knight Rides Again and some other questionable titles, I thought Miller had been mostly dismissed as falling hard down to the joke tier of comic writers...

Jakyl25 posted...

OH god, Miller did a DK3??

Is it...as "Miller" as you'd expect at this point?

It's better than DK2. It just feels like an action comic without that much social commentary. Really, it's devoid of most of it. It's pretty... light is probably word I'm looking for? Light in terms of deeper content. It's still Miller visceral.
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I go to a small shop where his marvel sales have slid into nothingness.

The constant rebooting gives people too many jump-off points he says. Every time they reboot the avengers he loses 2 or 3 subscribers.(this is a very small shop)

His strongest sellers are Young Animal Stuff, Batman fam, and the small smattering of Image he gets in.

Meanwhile he sold exactly 3 copies of the newest X Men stuff and the rest just sit there.
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redrocket_pub posted...

What exactly is Marvel doing wrong?

The writing is just bad. That's the biggest problem. That's what I hear first and foremost every time. The writing is bad. New characters all sound the same. Old characters all act the same. Villains all act the same. Even the quirky books all have the same sense of quirk. There's no difference between Deadpool and Gwenpool. Everything is just so middle-of-the-road melodramatic and boring to people now. Nothing feels like it matters. No real stakes. No real emotional investment.

Now, some people will tell you that the campaign to diversify the Marvel Universe led to this. It did. But not because of the diversity. It was because of bad writing and shoehorning new characters into established roles.

The reason people liked the new Blue Beetle was because there was a development to the character. The reason people liked John Stewart was because his introduction wasn't at the expense of Hal Jordan. The reason no one has ever complained about diversity in comics until now is because the diversity wasn't at the expense of the legacy of pre-established characters.

When you try to replace Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, etc. all at the same time, you're going to lose readers who are loyal to the characters - once they realize that the new writing is bad.
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A Dark Knight book without social commentary feels off-brand
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Eddv posted...

I go to a small shop where his marvel sales have slid into nothingness.

The constant rebooting gives people too many jump-off points he says. Every time they reboot the avengers he loses 2 or 3 subscribers.(this is a very small shop)

His strongest sellers are Young Animal Stuff, Batman fam, and the small smattering of Image he gets in.

Meanwhile he sold exactly 3 copies of the newest X Men stuff and the rest just sit there.

This is what I greatly fear is going to happen, which is why I've lowered my Diamond shipments of Marvel by 30%.
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Jakyl25 posted...

A Dark Knight book without social commentary feels off-brand

It is, and yet it is much better than the alternative with Miller being the Miller he is now.
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Eddv posted...

I go to a small shop where his marvel sales have slid into nothingness.

The constant rebooting gives people too many jump-off points he says. Every time they reboot the avengers he loses 2 or 3 subscribers.(this is a very small shop)

Why are they constantly rebooting now? They come across like a junkie chasing that Issue #1 high
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Jakyl25 posted...

Eddv posted...

I go to a small shop where his marvel sales have slid into nothingness.

The constant rebooting gives people too many jump-off points he says. Every time they reboot the avengers he loses 2 or 3 subscribers.(this is a very small shop)

Why are they constantly rebooting now? They come across like a junkie chasing that Issue #1 high

Honestly you answered your own question.

Let me give you an example of a comic I got in this week. Nick Fury #1. This is, of course, a new Nick Fury, based on the MCU one, but introduced as the son of the original Nick Fury.

Here are the comments I got about the book:

"It'll just get cancelled in 5 issues. They don't publish anyone who isn't one of the big names for more than a few months."

"Can't wait for him to be rebooted as an Asian lesbian next month."

"It'll get rebooted in 5 issues. They'll abandon ship by the time a new event comic comes out."

"If they wanted to diversify, why didn't they use the Ultimate Nick Fury that already WAS black and was actually popular?"

"Wait... where is the real Nick Fury again?"

"Nick Fury is getting a comic? For real?"

This is the state of Marvel.
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This is just a guess based off of interviews, but maybe it's because of the shorter term contracts they offer their writers and artists? If a new creative team comes along to replace the old, they seem to pick their preferred set of characters to work with instead of working with the same set the previous creative team used.
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psaltery posted...

This is just a guess based off of interviews, but maybe it's because of the shorter term contracts they offer their writers and artists? If a new creative team comes along to replace the old, they seem to pick their preferred set of characters to work with instead of working with the same set the previous creative team used.

This used to happen all the time at DC. What would happen is, you'd see a team roll off of, say, the Flash. Let's, for shits and giggles, pretend Mark Waid was leaving. And then he was being replaced by, for shits and giggles, Geoff Johns. Well Geoff wants to write with different villains and supporting characters. You know what he does? He picks up the numbering Mark left off, and HE STARTS FUCKING WRITING.

Consequently, your sales numbers stay at a higher overall number, rather than spiking with a #1 and dropping below previous sales.

Here's the scarier part: Marvel sales don't spike for #1 anymore. They drop now.
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marvel should hire me
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Imagine if each of these reboots got their own ongoing universe like the Ultimate comics did!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Imagine if each of these reboots got their own ongoing universe like the Ultimate comics did!

The worst part is that the Ultimate Universe got a reboot once. THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE. GOT. A REBOOT.

Marvel is so clueless.
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MariaTaylor posted...

marvel should hire me

I mean, they could even hire me and it'd be an improvement, since I would delegate the tough decisions to scarlet. >_>
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You'd think given their histories, DC would be tougher for a newbie to penetrate.

I was really hoping Secret Wars was the end to the Marvel madness.
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JDPizza posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

marvel should hire me

I mean, they could even hire me and it'd be a improvement, since I would delegate the tough decisions to scarlet. >_>

If you could pick one Marvel character to write, who do you go for?
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scarletspeed7 posted...

"Can't wait for him to be rebooted as an Asian lesbian next month."

this one makes me laugh because that's how a lot of marvel feels these days.

scarletspeed7 posted...

"If they wanted to diversify, why didn't they use the Ultimate Nick Fury that already WAS black and was actually popular?"

meanwhile this one will never cease to confuse me.



and the issue with the diversity bit isn't just that it was shoving diversity in there for diversity's sake, it was because it repeatedly just kept trying to beat you over the head with it, taking direct shots against fans, against the characters, and being so... bragant about it. which ties back to your claim that the writing is just bad.

though that doesn't explain squirrel girl. the everything of that is bad.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

I go to a small shop where his marvel sales have slid into nothingness.

The constant rebooting gives people too many jump-off points he says. Every time they reboot the avengers he loses 2 or 3 subscribers.(this is a very small shop)

His strongest sellers are Young Animal Stuff, Batman fam, and the small smattering of Image he gets in.

Meanwhile he sold exactly 3 copies of the newest X Men stuff and the rest just sit there.

This is what I greatly fear is going to happen, which is why I've lowered my Diamond shipments of Marvel by 30%.

The most telling part is that i went to order All New Wolverine #19 (because im trying out Weapon X) and was informed he no longer stocks it. And in general he is just aggressively cutting marvel to make space for image.

Meanwhile he has to order extra printinga of the Flintstones and scooby apocalypse and Shade
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Jakyl25 posted...

You'd think given their histories, DC would be tougher for a newbie to penetrate.

I was really hoping Secret Wars was the end to the Marvel madness.

Here's the thing about DC - time has been good to them. Their more niche titles have aged well and gained acclaim more and more over the years. When DC changed their entire structure of publishing and editing, they opened the floodgates to guys like Morrison, Ellis and Moore. When they introduced Wildstorm and Vertigo, they essentially set up companies that were minor league feeders for the major league titles as well as companies to sate certain creative appetites that needed somewhere to play that was a different audience and mindset than DC. Even when DC is at a low point, DC is prepping new talent. Right now, Marvel has no real rising talent. And this situation happens from time to time for Marvel.

The thing about DC, and I'm sure most people here would agree with me, is that they are top and the bottom of the bell curve. They have the highest highs and the lowest lows. And Marvel is the space in between. Marvel takes so few risks because the Marvel Formula was successful for decades. Until it wasn't. And then, when they resuscitated sales by handing superstar writers annual event comics, it became a stopgap measure, and the cracks started to really show. And now, when DC has become very much a land of opportunity, Marvel is stuck because they can't groom new talent OR fallback on really well-established old talent that is still beloved.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

If you could pick one Marvel character to write, who do you go for?

Now you just made me realize I know nothing about Marvel outside of MCU, X-Men, Spider-Man, and Fantastic Four.

Wait, is there any Marvel outside of MCU, X-Men, Spider-Man, and Fantastic Four? >_>
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