Board 8 > Thirty years of video games -- a transience retrospective.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Not having played an appreciable amount of Banjo-Kazooie, I did play a lot of Tooie. One of the things I really appreciate about it is that the player gets to start with all of the original game's abilities.
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transcience posted...

I agree with Okami and Darksiders. KH I dunno.

KH doesn't distinctly rip off Zelda or feel like Zelda, but I remember back in 2002 a 3D action game with a lock on system was definitely an OoT invention. They're only 4 years apart!

There's probably countless others that qualify under that banner. Even having a context sensitive icon that told you what your A button would do when you pressed it was something we take for granted now that Zelda popularized IIRC.
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The very next semi-notable game that Baldur's Gate influenced was Planescape Torment. It had the same basic combat system, isometric view, and fantasy type of setting. Then it made things way weirder and thought-provoking. Planescape didn't influence things a ton but I think it's notable because a lot of people consider it the golden standard of video game writing. It's universally respected by people who know it and while it never became mainstream, it's legacy had grown over the years.

There was also stuff like Neverwinter Nights but those have mostly faded.
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I bought Planescape: Torment a few years ago, desperately wanting to play something of narrative quality. Never bothered installing it for whatever reason.

Does it still play okay?
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You ever play one of the old isometric games? If so you'll be fine. If not it takes some getting used to. Combat kinda sucks but you can talk your way out of 97% of it so it's not a big deal. The main 'gameplay' is just how you interact through dialogue trees and pick your choices. It's very light on traditional gameplay stuff.

Also to get the best experience you need to pick mage, dump all stats on Int/Wis/Cha, and turn on always-sprint.

Tl;Dr - very playable but old and not a traditional game.
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pjbasis posted...

transcience posted...

I agree with Okami and Darksiders. KH I dunno.

KH doesn't distinctly rip off Zelda or feel like Zelda, but I remember back in 2002 a 3D action game with a lock on system was definitely an OoT invention. They're only 4 years apart!

There's probably countless others that qualify under that banner. Even having a context sensitive icon that told you what your A button would do when you pressed it was something we take for granted now that Zelda popularized IIRC.

just to be clear - Ocarina is clearly a monster game. it's probably in the top 10 most important games of the 90s. it's just that 1998 is a killer year. Half-Life changed FPS campaigns forever. Starcraft singlehandedly propelled RTS campaigns to relevance and had a huge multiplayer push. Pokemon is obvious. Metal Gear Solid has several significant touch points. I put Ocarina slightly below those.
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Some of those games were pioneers, others perfected a formula, others introduced elements to the mainstream. I guess your definition of "importance" factors into that.

In terms of sheer influence on other games, I'd probably rank MGS as number one. That set the template for pretty much every AAA action game for at least a generation.

Most "important" game of that era though is Mario 64, and I don't think it's even close.
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transience posted...

The genre existed prior to 1998 but it felt nonexistent; maybe there were games on the PC (Thief also came out in '98) but nothing like this, nothing with this much flash, and certainly nothing on the consoles. The closest thing to stealth was survival horror.

Tenchu beat MGS to the market by a few months, but it's not like either influenced the other so point still basically stands.

Here's my take on SM64 vs BK:

BK is better on a first playthrough
SM64 is infinitely more replayable
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Huh you know I never really realized how Xenogears was the first RPG to do that kinda stuff with the camera. It's one of those things where it's going on but you never actually realize that it's a new thing. Probably still shouldn't be remotely in the running on any sort of influential list (no slight against Xenogears that's just a fierce year) but you know, neat.
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I think tran's fanboyism is showing a bit. There were definitely cinematic angles and camerawork before Xenogears--FFVII stands out in particular.
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Well I knew FFVII did but I thought it was exclusively through cutscenes-- Xenogears did it in the gameplay more.

That being said on a second thought I don't think that's exactly accurate.
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maybe true - I think it's a list of 9 major games and one thrown in to make an even 10 - but FF7 didn't really have camera angles to play with because everything was so pre rendered. Xenogears was not and it shows.
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Grandia definitely did the camera stuff, though that was only a few months before 'gears, and even that that was only in Japan. Grandia came out in the US after Xenogears.
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Lopen posted...

Well I knew FFVII did but I thought it was exclusively through cutscenes-- Xenogears did it in the gameplay more.

While Xenogears definitely had more of an arthouse feel to it, I still think FFVII had those nicely polished angles to add to the atmosphere in a lot of locations. I'm not disputing that Xenogears was influential, but FFVII certainly had breakthrough cinematography a year before it was released.
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I dunno, you just said it was my fanboyism!

here's an example of it - https://youtu.be/3Vkr0LYeDsk?t=112

though really, I think we're taking this one thing out of context a little. Xenogears was notable for its scale and its content. I've always thought it was on another level scope-wise from other RPGs released around the time. it's even impressive by today's standards.. well, up until it stops being a game.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afuKSfF1rHg

You can point to a dozen examples in FFVII too. Regardless, I think both games pushed the limits of what video games were... In fact, those were the two games that probably had the greatest impact on me from the perspectives of "games as art" when I was a kid. I just didn't know it at the time.
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I thought I was done with Xenogears 50-60 hours in where I thought for sure I was at the final boss and then there was still another 30 after that
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ninkendo posted...

I thought I was done with Xenogears 50-60 hours in where I thought for sure I was at the final boss and then there was still another 30 after that

I love this game
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I guess I played Xenogears too late.
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Someone like neon will probably tell me that this belongs a lot higher (or maybe he thinks it's just a byproduct of the great Ultima IV?)

Telengard is the most important game of all time!!!

PC RPGs are just fun to follow because there is a lot of direct "I played this 3/10 rat hole in 1983 and one of the gameplay elements was so good that I made the Diablo series based on it" stories. A lot of gameplay elements being passed around, emphasized, standardized, etc. Then you have some very good games that went on to inspire Dragon Quest (Ultima).

By the time Baldur's Gate comes out, I don't know what the influences are. Does Dragon Age need Baldur's Gate? I guess at that point I don't know. and maybe it's right there in the Wikipedia but I stopped following a lot of lines of influence around the time the DS/WoW came out, because it felt like game development was a different animal at that point. I have no idea what game started F2P or P2W types of games but getting PC games into that realm was very important.
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Ugh, Xenogears. I started that game under the impression that I had to beat it. I got as far as the point where all the end-game sidequests came up and I just said, forget it, I don't like this game and I've wasted enough time. I've been much more willing to abandon games ever since.

Final Fantasy Tactics: I was having an OK time of this one, except that I never really took to the systems and when I tried to switch things up I hit one of the games' "superboss" fights (the one with all the monks wearing Gaia Gear, ouch). I stopped playing after that. I picked it up again on the PS3, but I didn't get very far before I traded the PS3 in for my PS4.

Metal Gear Solid was a revelation in what video games could do. I made my friends sit through the helicopter scene near the beginning so they could feel how the Dual Shock went along with the scene. It's much harder to sit through now because Kojima does like to chat, but it did so much that we now take for granted.

Resident Evil 2 was considerably better than the first game, especially the voice acting. I no longer cringed whenever somebody opened their mouths. It also marks the first especially jarring jump scare for me: during the second run, Mr. X bursts through a wall the moment you finish a puzzle. Once you reach the hallway to escape, he bursts through another wall. I dropped my controller in shock when that first one happened.

1999
https://i.imgur.com/tNCxReS.jpg

Notable Games:

Donkey Kong 64
Everquest
Final Fantasy 8
Gran Turismo 2
Koudelka
Legend of Dragoon
Lunar: Silver Star Story
Ogre Battle 64
Planescape: Torment
Quake 3
Resident Evil 3
Sonic Adventure
Soul Calibur
Star Ocean 2
Suikoden 2
Super Smash Bros.
System Shock 2
The Next Tetris
Tony Hawk Pro Skater
Unreal Tournament
Vandal Hearts 2

transience's take:

1 - Suikoden 2
2 - Vandal Hearts 2
3 - Soul Calibur
4 - The Next Tetris
5 - Final Fantasy VIII

Overall: 30th

Gamerankings Top 5:

1 - Soul Calibur
2 - Tony Hawk's Pro Skater
3 - Unreal Tournament
4 - Gran Turismo 2
5 - System Shock 2

GameFAQs:

1 - Final Fantasy VIII
2 - Soul Calibur
3 - WWF Wrestlemania 2000 (???)

WHAT HAPPENED? 1998 is the god tier year; 1999 is... where the hell did all the games go?! There is seriously not a single game that I legitimately like in 1999. Suikoden 2 is my #1 game and, due to divine intervention, I haven't even come close to beating it. I have Final Fantasy VIII on this list and I hate Final Fantasy VIII. It's like this black hole of quality video games descended upon us. It's baffling! 1999 is the only year where you could just throw every video game released in a black hole and I wouldn't notice it at all. At all!

Okay, 1999 isn't horrifically bad for most people. It's just me. It had some notable video games, especially in the PC space. Everquest is a major milestone for the world of MMOs. It still gets new expansions today! I just looked it up and it's on its 23rd expansion. Impressive! I've never totally understood what made Everquest tick when others did not. It's something I'd like to understand just from a history lesson perspective someday. Everquest was big amongst my circle of friends in the late 90s/early 2000s.

Unreal Tournament was big. You were either a UT guy or a Quake guy if you were doing multiplayer FPS's on PC. Of course, CS would be coming soon - technically I think CS launched in 1999 as a mod before it became its own thing next year. Quake 3 came out in 1999 too and is I think the go-to game for most Quake fans today. While not an FPS, System Shock 2 was a groundbreaking cyberpunk first person game by famed (and now defunct) developer Irrational Games. It's largely seen as the predecessor to Bioshock. PlaneScape: Torment is an isometric choice-driven RPG that's praised for its narrative while also being kind of awful to actually play.

The Playstation had its share of B-tier RPGs thanks to Square only really putting out one game. They had multiple in 98 and 2000 but 99 really only had FF8. I won't talk too in-depth about FF8 just because I'm way too biased against it. Suikoden 2 gets a lot of praise for expanding the formula of the original and adding a compelling antagonist and story. People like Lunar for some reason. Same with Legend of Dragoon, Legend of Legaia, Star Ocean 2, Koudelka.. yeah, others could sing the praises of these games but I'm lumping them together as lower-tier RPGs. The FF7 boom had its strengths but also its weaknesses. Come at me!

The Nintendo 64 was light on content. It was really just DK64 and Super Smash Bros. I've never played SSB but I bet 30 minutes with it and it's suddenly my 1999 GOTY. Ogre Battle 64 also came out in '99 - a game I should really give a look given my affinity for Tactics Ogre. I feel like I should say more about Smash Bros but I'm not really sure what - it's the logical follow-up to Mario Kart and Goldeneye. The N64 was all about four player games.
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The real highlight of 1999 is probably the release of the Dreamcast. 9-9-99 was a great advertising slogan. The Saturn bombed here so Sega gave it one more look with the Saturn. Sonic Adventure came out and it was pretty good compared to what hit on the Saturn. Soul Calibur was a mindblowing port. The Dreamcast was kind of a half-step between the N64 and the PS2, but for that short period of time it was pretty crazy. Here was Soul Calibur, a new arcade game, running god damn perfectly. Soul Calibur still resides in the top 10 all-time on gamerankings. That game sold a console much like Tekken 3 did on the PS1 and SF2 on the SNES.

I shouldn't end this writeup without talking Tony Hawk's Pro Skater on the PS1. The Tony Hawk series is one of the highest rated series' in video game history. Looking back, it's kind of.. surprising. It's kinda funny to watch video of this game now - it's so incredibly late 90s with its style and music. It makes me want to watch the x-games and listen to reel big fish. Anyway, this game doesn't deserve to be trashed. The skate game genre had a big boom with things like SSX, Jet Set Radio, etc, and is still visible today with games like Skate 3.

Man, 1999. I'm sorry to be so negative but man.
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Wrestlemania 2000 is awesome
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Which reminds me you left WCW NWO World Tour and Revenge off your lists for the year I can't trust your lists now
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I will freely admit to being totally ignorant to n64 wrestling games
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Those are usually the first things I think of when I think of multiplayer games on N64

But specifically the AKI games not the hot garbage acclaim put out
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1999: Final Fantasy VIII >> Super Smash Bros. > Wrestlemania 2000 > Sonic Adventure >> Donkey Kong 64
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No mercy has yet to be topped in terms of fun factor for wrestling video games
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WWE ALL-Stars came close though
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Legend of Dragoon and Gran Turismo 2 are great games!
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And maybe Def Jam Vendetta
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Sonic Adventure was pretty solid

I think the Dreamcast was actually my first console! I'm not positive because I know I finally got my mom to relent on her no video games policy to get me a GBC and Pokémon for Christmas 1999, but I'm pretty certain I got the dreamcast shortly after launch as a gift from my uncle. Apparently he had also bought me a SNES years earlier, but my parents had returned it and used the money to buy me and my brother other gifts...
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No Mercy is the best, yeah, but All-Stars was awesome, too.
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Sonic Adventure was a pretty good game. It's just too bad that the first real 3D Sonic was also the last good 3D Sonic for more than a decade.
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Yeah, I enjoyed SA1 despite the fact that it's technically a mess. I don't know if I could play it again now though!
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I'll always be on the SA2 > SA1 train but I also didn't play either of them until GameCube since I never owned a Dreamcast
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obligatory Worms Armageddon mention
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THQ's N64-wrestling games were really an outstanding genre of their own. That grapple-based engine is missed!

WCW/nWo Revenge was where they started to really find their formula, then WWF No Mercy came along in 2000 and became the pinnacle of a now-lost genre. Where's the Kickstarter to bring this gameplay back with some modern thinking?!
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1999 Top SHINE 5

Final Fantasy VIII - Hey Leon! FF8 was my first foray into 3D Final Fantasy so I may be biased when I say I like it more than FF7 or FF9. My friend and I were both obsessed with this game and I remember spending most of 8th grade gym class not actually doing gym stuff but instead talking with my friend about ways to break the junction system

Super Smash Bros - IGN64 had a petition for this game to bring it out in english that I signed. I like to think that help with his game coming over here. Kirby for life! This was the game that he was best in.

Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber - Oh man this game. I thought March of the Black Queen was okay but this one trumped it in every category. Graphics, Story, Music, Gameplay it had it all. I remember preordering it and the dude at Gamestop staring at me with a confused look on his face. Also I think this was 2000 game in North America because I remember it coming out close to Majora's Mask

Wrestlemania 2000 - I was so excited that the AKI system was moving from WCW to WWF because I was always a WWF fan. I no longer had to deal with games like WWF Attitude with their mortal kombat style combos and special moves which just doesn't work for wrestling games. The grapple based system is and always will be the best

Donkey Kong 64 - Look....I don't know why this is on here. I like to collect things okay. It's an addiction.
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you're right, it is 2000! another strike against 1999
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FFVIII all 1999 needs anyway
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just saw that Street Fighter Alpha 3 came out in 1998 too

that could be the one that puts it over the top

GO FOR BROKE
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Soul Calibur is the best 3D fighter ever made though
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i enjoyed donkey kong 64 a lot. i guess the hate is for the repetition in the collecting and minigames? because the worlds themselves i always found fantastic.
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Hey I like DK64 too.
It's polished, plays good, looks great on a technical level, and is pretty packed with content and overall hugeness.

There are a lot of problems it has though, especially when compared to it's direct inspiration in Banjo-Kazooie. And on a higher creative level it's a shame that a new Donkey Kong game had to be a ripoff of another series/genre and not tried to be an actual Donkey Kong game.
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Ogre Battle 64, DK64 and the N64 wrestling games are all top tier
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DK64 is a great game when it isn't making you re-do tons of stuff for arbitrary reasons
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Also the best N64 Rare game is Jet Force Gemini
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I..... might actually concede that I like 1999 more than 1998 looking at that list. Ogre battle 64, Resident Evil 3, Suikoden II, Lunar, DK64.... damn. The memories.

Final fantasy VIII can go to hell though
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