Board 8 > Ciel nosurge (in English) - A watchthrough topic *Spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

This final update for Ar nosurge Plus: Ode to an Unborn Star wound up being super long!

It's hard to believe that this is almost over. The journey took two months and a combined 127 hours (59 for Ciel, 68 for Ar). For a solid month and a half I watched an epic saga unfold for an hour a night after getting home from work. Then for two weeks after that I dedicated almost all of my free time to everything Ar nosurge had to offer. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this was an amazing once-in-a-lifetime gaming experience and I'm really glad I did it. Thank you to everyone who contributed to it, too. xp1337 for choosing this game in my ranking topic, black_raen for translating Ciel nosurge, dowolf for watching Ciel as well, Zyxyz for also watching for awhile, and all those beautiful people who posted once near the start of the topic and then never returned. You're all wonderful!

Now I'll try to finalize my thoughts on Ar nosurge. One thing I want to get out of the way quick is the fact that it wasn't perfect. My reasons for that are all petty, but they still exist. There were a lot of missed opportunities to truly link things back to Ciel nosurge in satisfying ways (Ion/Kanon not being surprised to see each other, Ion barely reacting when she learned the fate of Tele-kun, etc) and the gameplay had a few annoying aspects. In particular, finding purification chat topics really should've been streamlined and it was lame to have to keep running from battles when I just wanted to collect ingredients or get to Nay's purification site.

However, those few things are literally the only negative aspects of this entire experience (unless Zill counts, I guess). Everything else was amazing. Ciel nosurge set up a sweeping epic with an interesting setting, amazing characters, and a plot that was always a joy to follow. Ar nosurge took that foundation and carried everything to a satisfying conclusion. Not only that, but it added numerous little things that made the experience all the more enjoyable! The synthesis dances are still my favorite thing ever, the chat topics both during purification and in the field were a welcome chance to see more character interaction, and the combat system was unique and engaging. I also want to take a moment to say that I loved what this game's narrative managed to do with the fact that it was a game. Making me an actual character was surprisingly engaging, Player Two was a unique villain, and it tied in very well with the ideas of different dimensions.

I feel like I could praise Ar nosurge forever but I should probably stop. If anyone following this wants to know what I think about something specific or anything I forgot to mention, feel free to ask! I'm going to be sad when this topic officially ends so I'll welcome anything to stretch it out.

---

Speaking of stretching the topic out, let's do a final character ranking! I'll talk about them in order from best to Zill. Just quick thoughts here, I might come back and say more later if I feel like I forgot anything.

Ion is a saint and has become one of my favorite characters ever. Right from the beginning of Ciel nosurge she was such an earnest, kindhearted person that I wanted to root for her, and that never changed. Her story is tragic but she never let that corrupt her (outside of the occasional genometrics segment, which also served to give her depth). Being able to personally interact with her during Ar nosurge also solidified my love for her.

Renall managed to surpass Kanon even though she didn't show up until late in Ar nosurge. She remained the same awesome person as ever, the woman who always did what she had to. I still love the way she played on the public's fear to save all their lives at the end of Ciel, it was so great, and she did something similar during Ar. Her close relationship with Ion was also a huge plus. Renall is great.
---

Kanon may have slipped to third place because she had a few rough patches in Ar nosurge, but she's still great! A stoic believer with a soft spot for birdies. My main regret from Ar nosurge is that it didn't focus on the relationship she had with Ion. My favorite parts of Ciel was how their friendship grew as they came to relate with each other and rely on one another and I would've liked to see more of that. The crafting storyline touched on it a bit but mostly it dealt with Kanon's guilt and work ethic so it was never a focus. That's a shame, but she's still an amazing character

Nelo just wanted to go home, and I sympathized with her a billion times more than I ever did with Zill. I loved her humanizing moments, too, like her friendship with Cass or the way she honestly mourned Prim at the end. I'm ten thousand years too late, but I'm angry at the people who originally pulled her into the world, using her as a tool and then killing her right after. Everything I've seen shows that Nelo could've been a good person right from the start if she was just treated with kindness, and I'm glad Cass and the others eventually got through to her.

Sarly was great in Ciel, but Ar made her even better. She filled her role as the genius of the group well, but I also appreciated the little moments with her. Her crafting storyline about learning things from Cass was a lot of fun and I hope her relationship with Shirotaka works out. I also loved the contrast of such a serious, logic-over-emotion person being the biggest Nyuroki fangirl in the world. It's hard to believe someone as terrible as Neptool had such an awesome daughter.

Cass was a main character this time around, and that gave her a lot of opportunities to shine. In particular I loved how her relationship with Delta developed. They weren't a standard couple (well, not in real-life terms. I guess they were kind of standard as far as anime tsundere romance goes >_>) but it was always clear that they loved each other deeply and would do anything for each other. Their date and her private chat with me at the end of it were some of the best parts of the game.

Nay fell below Cass in this ranking compared to Ciel, but I want to stress that this was due to Cass rising by virtue of being a main character more than it was due to Nay falling. Nay was amazing in Ar nosurge. Taking over Delta's restaurant was my favorite synthesis plotline because she was such a troll the entire time. She even trolled me at the end by giving recipes out of order! Every item I crafted had hilarious dialogue and Nay always made it work. There's lots of depth to her beyond that, of course. Being the original Ion was an epic reveal in Ciel nosurge and her characterization was easily among the most complex. I think it says a lot about Ciel/Ar that the character I'm ranking seventh would easily be ranked first in a lot of other franchises I can think of.

Undou always did what was right, which gave him an impressive track record of opposing Zill. Anyone who opposes Zill is great as far as I'm concerned, but I liked the added touch that the one person she loved was the person who opposed her the most. Screw you, Zill. Even the love of your life thinks you're a harpy.

Prim was a cute genom who later become truly tragic and interesting in equal measure thanks to the influence of Player Two. Prim was exactly the kind of character to make this effective, too, because she made such a strong early impression. I was angry she was taken and desperately wanted to save her. Sarly or Kanon being taken by Player Two wouldn't have carried the same weight even though they're technically far more important characters.
---

Delta was a lot better than Tabou. Interdimend and how he dealt with it really gave him a lot of depth beyond simply being headstrong. Still, my favorite thing about him has to be the way his relationship with Cass developed. It often made me smile. There was one point in the game where they showed a montage of the couple's happy moments... and three of them featured Cass punching Delta or knocking him out. I loved it, and I hope they enjoy their new life together with a revived Prim!

Shurelia is a new character (to me at least) which puts her at a disadvantage, but I liked her! Being an artificial being is interesting and I liked how childlike she often was, whether it was getting lost while chasing bunnies or following Delta and Cass through the wormhole before it was even confirmed it worked both ways. I'm interested in Ar tonelico now even though I doubt I'll ever get an opportunity to play it, but maybe I'll see her again someday.

Shirotaka didn't change much since Ciel. He's a fun character but even when he was mourning Pram I never got a sense of depth out of him. He just likes moe, and I guess that's all he really aspired to. I did appreciate that it looks like he'll form a relationship with Sarly, though!

Tattoria wasn't bad. I liked the sense of humor in his segments and he filled his role well. There are approximately a zillion greater-than signs between him and Zill. However, as a new character he was at a disadvantage and unlike Shurelia and Prim he wasn't a cute girl. Sorry, Tattoria!

Zill is the worst person ever and I'm happy she's dead

---

I'll leave it at that, but this was such an immense experience that I've almost certainly forgotten something so I might come back with more thoughts later. Thanks again to xp for getting me to play something I likely wouldn't have otherwise, as well as anyone else who followed along! This topic really enhanced the experience and I'm sad it's almost over.
---

Robazoid posted...

If anyone following this wants to know what I think about something specific or anything I forgot to mention, feel free to ask!

Um... favorite song(s)? Ar nosurge OST sooooo good.

Robazoid posted...

let's do a final character ranking!

Nay still way too low! Ion and Nay Top 2. Then Sarly. Then probably Renall/Nelo/Cass.

Robazoid posted...

Thanks again to xp for getting me to play something I likely wouldn't have otherwise, as well as anyone else who followed along! This topic really enhanced the experience and I'm sad it's almost over.

Thanks for agreeing to play it (and watch Ciel)! I felt bad because I felt like I was asking for way too big a thing there but I'm super glad you agreed and even moreso that you enjoyed it! This topic was also a lot of fun for me and I'll miss checking it on it every day to read and comment too. =(
---

Robazoid posted...

I'm interested in Ar tonelico now even though I doubt I'll ever get an opportunity to play it,

The games are PS2 but 2D, so even if you have a weak computer they're easily emulatable. do it do it do it do it do it~

I mean.

To follow up on XP's EXSPHERE_NOSURGE comments, in addition to being a wonderful chaotic fighting dueling punching-violin mess (in the best way), it's also predominantly in REON 4213. Only a few lines are in Japanese; that is to say, only a few lines are expected to be understood by the listener. These are also where the music gets clearer -- where Prim is winning over Player 2, in other words. "For the people I love in the world I love," she sings, "I send a weave of emotions: a protective light!" Then later, "This song is the light!; my prayers, wings as white as snow; emotion, the power overflowing from my heart! The bottomless spring of hope wells up in me; and with my chains severed, I order myself but to sing as mine heart commands." "A weave of emotions" to describe a song is almost cliched at this point, the Exa Pico series uses it so much, but it still sent chills down my spine here.

As for La Ciel Reincarnation, the more operatic final boss song, the eponymous ode to a planet being born (yes they mistranslated the subtitle), I'm not as fond of the lyrics in that one, but it does have one line I've always thought of as sweet: "Though we are hurt, though we fall, the warmth of the hand held out to us will never vanish."

squeeee~
---

xp1337 posted...

Um... favorite song(s)? Ar nosurge OST sooooo good.

Assuming it's all on youtube I'll start listening to them tonight and maybe try to make a top five or something!

xp1337 posted...

Thanks for agreeing to play it (and watch Ciel)! I felt bad because I felt like I was asking for way too big a thing there but I'm super glad you agreed and even moreso that you enjoyed it!

This was actually exactly what I was hoping for when I did that 'recommend a game' thing in my topic. Left to my own devices I never would've played Ar nosurge (and if I ever did I almost certainly wouldn't have watched Ciel nosurge first). However, this was a game you cared deeply about, so you chose it, and now I can see there was a very good reason for it. I assume no one but me cares about spoilers for my ranking of every game I've played in 2017 so once I get home from work I might say where Ar nosurge landed in my top 100 (I still need to finalize its place now that I've beaten it).

Also, speaking of game recommendations, dowolf's recommended game was Half Minute Hero and it's finally on sale on Steam! I might give it a try sometime soon as well.

dowolf posted...

The games are PS2 but 2D, so even if you have a weak computer they're easily emulatable. do it do it do it do it do it~

...Man I just had a moment where I felt old. My first reaction to this was 'pfft you can't emulate the PS2' but then I realized it's 2017 now and it's probably possible. This actually explains some talk I've seen about an Ar tonelico 2 fan retranslation, maybe I'll look into that as well. Are you two fans of Ar tonelico as much as you were Ar nosurge? When/if I get around to it I wouldn't mind making another topic if there's interest.

dowolf posted...

To follow up on XP's EXSPHERE_NOSURGE comments

Those are indeed some great lyrics! I really do need to listen to the OST again. I also wanted to thank you for always posting these neat translations. It'd be nice if I understood Japanese (and REON 4213 I guess) but I failed basic French in tenth grade so learning other languages is beyond me. I did pick up a few words from all of this, though! I'm pretty sure 'sugoi' (my best guess at spelling) means 'amazing'

dowolf posted...

(yes they mistranslated the subtitle)

I was wondering about this at the end there because it had nothing to do with a star. 'Ode to an Unborn World' isn't a bad subtitle, I wonder why they changed it.
---

Roba posted...

...Man I just had a moment where I felt old. My first reaction to this was 'pfft you can't emulate the PS2' but then I realized it's 2017 now and it's probably possible. This actually explains some talk I've seen about an Ar tonelico 2 fan retranslation, maybe I'll look into that as well. Are you two fans of Ar tonelico as much as you were Ar nosurge? When/if I get around to it I wouldn't mind making another topic if there's interest.

Yes yes yes yes yes >_>

Gameplay-wise, AT1 is going to feel like a huge step back from Ar nosurge. The main story's not as great, either. That said, the characterization is just as on-point -- talk topics and cosmopheres (what those games call their genomatrices) are fantastic throughout.

As for emulating: I literally played AT1 on emulator back in 2010. So yeah >_>

Roba posted...

I was wondering about this at the end there because it had nothing to do with a star. 'Ode to an Unborn World' isn't a bad subtitle, I wonder why they changed it.

The word used, "Hoshi," can mean either "star" or "planet." Or any heavenly body that isn't the Sun, the Moon, or an asteroid, for that matter. It usually means "star," but in context here it clearly means "planet."

I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but they messed up so much stuff that no.
---

Robazoid posted...

Are you two fans of Ar tonelico as much as you were Ar nosurge?

Yeah, well.... sorta. The entire reason Ar nosurge jumped to the top of my radar the moment I heard Gust was developing it was its connection/similarity to Ar tonelico.

I say sorta only because I'd say Ar nosurge (and Ciel) are stronger than the Ar tonelico series overall. That said, Ar tonelico II is incredible and a game I'd rank equal to Ar nosurge (if forced to make a ranking, I'd probably put Ar nosurge ahead by a shade, but I could flip the two)

Ar tonelico I would seem like a step back from Ar nosurge probably but it's still a solid game. Ar tonelico II however, is amazing and likely Top 10-15 for me. That said, it does benefit from having played AT1 (not Ciel/Ar levels or anything, but still.) AT3 is something I'm a lot more conflicted with. There's nothing wrong with its story or characters, but Gust turned the unnecessary fanservice dial up to 11 and then broke the dial off for it. Also, it's by far the weakest battle system. >_>

tl;dr: Yeah, although mainly for Ar tonelico II which is amazing. Rest of the series is solid but AT2 too good.
---

I probably wouldn't be able to play AT3 anyway since it's on PS3, but I'm hoping the first two games will be possible! I also haven't listened to the Ar nosurge OST yet but I plan to do that this weekend sometime (plus bumping this a few times while I do that will give me a chance to save things from this topic into a text document).

That said, I can go over where Ar nosurge fell in my top 100 for anyone interested! When considering what factors to rank it on, I lumped my experience with Ciel nosurge into it, which benefits Ar nosurge a lot. Having this watchthrough/playthrough topic also enhanced the whole experience.

Entirely on its own merits, Ar nosurge probably would've fallen in my top 20-25 (likely just ahead of Final Fantasy X-2, since it had a similar fun tone in addition to being a great RPG). However, those other factors easily boosted it into my top 20... which meant I had to seriously consider the order of my entire top 25. Anything in my top 10 are perfect or near-perfect and Ar nosurge didn't quite reach those heights, but it wound up having enough personal appeal to fall comfortably in the top 15. It couldn't quite manage to beat Final Fantasy XIII and its amazing combat system, but it came closer than any other entirely new game I've played since 2016.

Basically here's my top 20 (top 20 rather than top 15 because the aforementioned reconsideration of my top 25 ended up moving Trails in the Sky up like four spots and xp might be happy to see that!)

1. Life is Strange
2. Super Metroid
3. Minecraft
4. Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green
5. Stardew Valley
6. Heroes of Might and Magic III
7. Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War
8. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
9. AI War: Fleet Command
10. Half Life
11. The Sims 2
12. Diablo III
13. Final Fantasy XIII
14. Ar nosurge Plus: Ode to an Unborn Star
15. Highway Blossoms
16. Dynasty Warriors 8
17. Dark Souls III
18. Factorio
19. The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky (+SC)
20. Team Fortress 2
---

Robazoid posted...

the aforementioned reconsideration of my top 25 ended up moving Trails in the Sky up like four spots and xp might be happy to see that!

oh ya

on pace to be #1 in a few years! >_>

Also super happy to see Ar nosurge place that highly!
---

xp1337 posted...

on pace to be #1 in a few years! >_>

You never know! This reconsideration proved to me that my list isn't anywhere near as set-in-stone as I thought. Pokemon moved up eight spots. The game that used to be in 15th place fell to the mid-20s, etc. It's just not very often that a game gets this high to make me reexamine everything, so Ar nosurge was worthwhile for that alone
---

Well I wound up listening to the songs with vocals (at least I hope this playlist on Youtube has them all). I'll glance through the rest of the OST this weekend but it's hard to imagine normal background music standing up to these! I'll list my top four below. Sadly, I really don't know enough about music to explain why I like songs but I can probably explain why I didn't love other ones as much if I'm missing anyone's favorite.

4. Class::XIO_PROCEED;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41p9n2HTdSc

3. Class::EXPAJA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDK7IVEKphA

2. yal fii-ne noh-iar;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ifkNxZJycY

1. ra-ciel reincarnation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQGeEYqrNFU

ra-ciel reincarnation got an emotional reaction from me when I listened to it again! I got to thinking about how I watched Ion destroy that planet and now she brought it back in the most awesome way possible.

HONORABLE MENTIONS: Song magic attacks that aren't long but are still awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Styn8BKgFMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlN0jFrHgCw
---

I've now listened to the rest of the OST. They were all nice songs (Ar nosurge had an awesome soundtrack) but I was right about them not being able to stand up to the epicness of those vocal ones. This was my favorite of the normal background music though!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-0ZsL9qV38

Anyway, unless there's something else to talk about I suppose this is the end of the topic. I'm glad there were at least a few people interested in following along with all of this. I'm still not sure if I'll make another topic for Ar tonelico but I definitely intend to play them someday.
---

Huh. I think you're the first person I've seen who rates yal fii-ne noh-iar that highly. I like it, but I've always been a bigger fan of Origa's other song, em-pyei-n vari-fen jang. It's got a wonderful mix of sorrow and regret and hope that really suits Kanon in that moment. And the countermelody from the flute is just love.

Also, fun fact: both of those songs are predominantly in Russian, because why not?
---

dowolf posted...

Also, fun fact: both of those songs are predominantly in Russian, because why not?

I read on the Ar nosurge tvtropes page that it's meant to symbolize the gap in understanding between the humans and the sharl, which I think is neat. Not understanding either language kind of made me miss that, though >_>

As for em-pyei-n vari-fen jang, it made it into my top ten as I was narrowing them down. Listening to it again now, it is indeed great, but it's more a slow, nice song. yal fii-ne noh-iar is faster and feels more epic which I think works really well for it.
---

Pretty solid list with XIO_PROCEED and EXPAJA! I'm not sure of my own favorites, I used to be, but it keeps changing over time. XIO_PROCEED and EXSPHERE_NOSURGE are usually always up near the top though.

Light of Bonds also a really solid pick for the non vocal songs. I always thought of that one as the closest thing there is to Ion's Theme and it's one of my favorites too. So People Can Be People, Requiem, and The Hourglass Doesn't Fall are also way up there, to just name a few off the top of my head.

Robazoid posted...

I'm still not sure if I'll make another topic for Ar tonelico but I definitely intend to play them someday.

AT2 is where the hype is at anyway tbqh. >_>

Robazoid posted...

Anyway, unless there's something else to talk about I suppose this is the end of the topic.

=(

the end of an era

Thanks for the topic, it's been a blast these last 2+ months!
---

M3sterybumper posted...

Want this bumped?

I think the topic is done, thanks for checking though!
---