Well I don't think ANYONE is saying that they don't want to see Cena vs. The Rock itself.
We're doing 2 things:
A.) Hating on the angle for really doing the worst possible job they could be doing about making us care (thus far) and B.) Explaining why we'll be rooting for Cena during the match itself, just like how we'll be rooting for Punk against Jericho.
I want to see the match a lot! I love watching Rock wrestle! By no means am I hating on the idea that this match is going to happen.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
And if anyone IS actually hating on the fact that this match is happening then I think they need to stop and simplify their thoughts. It's a dream match of the highest caliber!
It's just sad that until Cena's promo this last Monday they've basically given us no genuine push to REALLY get hyped about this match since the day after WM 27, to the point where we've spent months arguing over the semantics of things to explain our frustrations.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: TheRock1525 | #143 Common sense to me says that when The Rock said that, he meant that he was going to be a part of wrestling again. Not for one second did I think it meant he was going to become a regular competitor, and not once did I feel "betrayed" when he left again. To me, this seemed obvious, but apparently to other people they thought something else. And that's what frustrates me: why would anyone think otherwise? Why would someone think that The Rock, WHO WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF FILMING A NEW MOVIE, would suddenly drop everything to wrestle on a regular basis?
I don't get why it's so bloody hard for people to get that if Rock can't be around, he shouldn't say "I'm never leaving". Never leaving does not mean "I'm leaving for six months after my birthday and coming back for a few weeks before leaving again for X months/years". The fault lies solely on him for saying something that he clearly does not mean, and that leads in to what Cena's entire argument is anyway (and honestly I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they planned it like this, it seems likely that both guys are deliberately using some shaky material specifically to give each other something to work with), which is that Rock claiming to never leave and be the people's champion and love the WWE above all else is clear hypocrisy when he's not sticking around, prioritizes his Hollywood career and only cares to be the "people's champ" on occasions when the show is set up as a giant love letter to himself (in contrast to Cena who works his other commitments around wrestling and tries to give people something to get excited about regardless of the event and whether the people there love him or want to see him get killed).
It isn't about whether Dwayne will drop his movie career or not, that's irrelevant and people are reading too much into the out of kayfabe aspects of things. It's about The Rock, the character, being disingenuous about his priorities and loyalty by making empty promises and not really doing anything besides blowing hot air.
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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
Well, hopefully you understand why I'm firmly in The Rock's corner and it has nothing to do with my natural bias here. Cena has come off as completely whiny and nothing that The Rock has done has made me feel he's in the wrong.
Of course, I think that it's more important that the match is exciting more than anything. But I think people are overestimating the lasting effect of the results of this match. If Cena goes over, the crowds gonna be pissed and a lot of people are going to be upset about it. I'd say more than people upset with The Rock going over. And I don't think people will suddenly think better of the product just cause Cena went over The Rock. The fact that in the past year so many wrestlers have come in and taken a s*** all over the product (Rock, Punk, Jericho) shows that there's some huge fundamental problems with the WWE that need to be corrected. I mean, you and Smuffin are advocating TNA as the better program right now! I find that quite troubling.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
But I do still like WWE. I critique it but my overall opinion of the product is still a positive one. Just less positive than TNA.
Panthera, I posed that question before, about whether WWE might be INTENTIONALLY withholding Rock from doing more appearances/promos just to give Cena more ammo. SMuffin called me crazy. <_<
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: JaKyL25 | #155 Panthera, I posed that question before, about whether WWE might be INTENTIONALLY withholding Rock from doing more appearances/promos just to give Cena more ammo. SMuffin called me crazy. <_<
I don't suppose they're deliberately having him not show up, but I think it's probably intentional that Rock is always just repeating the same few cliches about loving the business and never addressing the points Cena raises, while Cena repeats himself endlessly and beats around the bush. They did it a bit during the Punk/HHH thing too, where both guys raised points against each other and then instead of responding (even though they had fairly obvious responses to use) they just repeated their original points in new words. I think both are cases of the guys deliberately giving each other ammo and never going for the throat because one strong enough promo might turn the crowd enough that they'd just ignore the response, no matter how good it was.
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We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
Heck, come to think of it, even Triple H and Undertaker are backhandedly burying everyone else with their feud.
Up and down the card, WWE is saying "Hey buy WM where you can see all the people that really matter make their annual appearance, and then 4 weeks later be sure to buy Extreme Rules featuring none of those guys!"
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
JaKyL25 posted... But I do still like WWE. I critique it but my overall opinion of the product is still a positive one. Just less positive than TNA.
See, this is probably the biggest problem right now: I have an overwhelmingly negative view of the product. Between Raw and Smackdown, I can count the number of wrestlers I actually enjoy watching on one hand.
I hate watching some of my favorite current guys (Punk and Bryan) feuding with incredibly dull and boring people (Ace and Show). I hate that Dolph Ziggler is stuck in this perpetual upper midcard no chance at a world title run heel spot. I hate that the Kane/Cena feud's end result was an Eve heel turn. Not to mention the two PPV matches they had suck because Kane is too old to go at this point (much like Show) and Cena isn't exactly Shawn Michaels when it comes to carrying someone. I hate that we have a farting gimmick. I hate that no one gives a s*** about the tag-team titles (though that seems to be a regular occurrence at this point). I hate that they finally gave Zack Ryder a chance, then after one bad ME rating said "Nope, time to bury you for Cena's sake."
There's just so much I dislike about the current product, it's hard for me to care when someone comes in an says "This sucks." It's why I was so excited for Punk when he did his famous shoot back in June. And it's why I'll probably stop being interested in wrestling again. And I know I keep reiterating that and I hope people don't see it as a slight against current wrestling fans. If you enjoy the current product, there's nothing wrong with that. I've openly said a couple times that maybe I'm the problem. That I just don't "get" the current WWE. But it's just I look at the current product, and I look at my favorite years of wrestling, and it just seems like it's no contest. And it feels like I have to sift through so much crap just to get to enjoyable parts of the WWE nowadays that I'm not sure I want to be a part of that anymore.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
I definitely don't see why you'd interpret Rock saying "he's never leaving again" to mean... whatever the heck TheRock1525 is saying it means, without going meta and saying to yourself "well Rock is doing a movie right now so he's obviously being metaphorical or something." Which to me is sorta like taking John Cena kissing Eve to be meaningless in kayfabe because he has a wife, and thusly say "hey Zack shouldn't be mad at Cena because Cena obviously has a wife so he clearly wasn't out to betray him" or to say "Jericho isn't actually a dick look at him on Dancing With The Stars." Rock seems like an exception there for the way people typically think, for whatever reason.
If you take the words as actually meaning something close to what they mean on paper though it's pretty damn hard to take Rock's current level of activity to mean anything near "I'm never leaving again."
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Look TNA is currently better because theyre booking better. Frankly thats all the B company ever has in its favor.
Most of the big boys go to WWE. Only a small handful of guys choose to live out their whole careers with TNA. But TNA can intelligently book and build guys properly and has actually succeeded in establishing two HBKs out of Beer Money. There are midcard angles that are real wrestlecrap but you also get stuff like 30 minutes of Kazarian vs. Styles and the X division for really good high workrate stuff.
WWE is currently sitting at a C+ for me overall. Good, but not living up to its potential. With all of the pieces they have in place it should be TRIVIAL for them to put together the best wrestling product on the planet. Yet they choke each and every time with only slashes of showing they can be what they so so SO should be.
TNA is hanging at a B/B+ because theyre booking well and getting all they can out of what they have at any given moment. If TNA didnt need guys like Hogan on the program for drawing purposes and if Daniels/Kazarian/Styles made a little more sense I'd rate them at an A- or A right now.
As a sidenote, i will be SHOCKED if Ziggler doesnt start getting bigger and bigger programs. If for no other reason than- You see that guy, WE MADE HIM. He showed up at OVW with no previous experience and is now one of our biggest names-- kinda similar to The Miz.
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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?
From: Lopen | #161 I definitely don't see why you'd interpret Rock saying "he's never leaving again" to mean... whatever the heck TheRock1525 is saying it means, without going meta and saying to yourself "well Rock is doing a movie right now so he's obviously being metaphorical or something." Which to me is sorta like taking John Cena kissing Eve to be meaningless in kayfabe because he has a wife, and thusly say "hey Zack shouldn't be mad at Cena because Cena obviously has a wife so he clearly wasn't out to betray him" or to say "Jericho isn't actually a dick look at him on Dancing With The Stars." Rock seems like an exception there for the way people typically think, for whatever reason.
If you take the words as actually meaning something close to what they mean on paper though it's pretty damn hard to take Rock's current level of activity to mean anything near "I'm never leaving again."
Yeah this argument quickly gets cyclical almost entirely because Rock the character and Rock the Man are actively being conflated by the WWE, let alone the average fan.
Rock the MAN meant it in one way. Rock the CHARACTER meant it another.
We are booing rock and cheering Cena at mania because , in character, we all feel Cena is right. If you disagree fine whatever I guss this is till technically face/face. What this doesn't mean is that all of us are mad Rock is around and "stealing some ones spot.." The match will be good, we're glad Rock is doing it. But we also hate the Rock for doing it. The work and the reality are VERY tightly tied together here, thats why it COULD turn out to be really good...provided Rock gives us SOMETHING to work with.
On the OTHER hand, if youre arguing "Rock being on the card is good for business because hes such a huge draw" well it doesnt take a genius to say "what about survivor series?'
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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?
You mean the Survivor Series that drew more PPV buys than least year's Survivor Series? One of the few PPVs that actually did better in terms of buyrates compared to the previous year?
Yes, it wasn't as successful as people hoped, but then again it was still better than the previous year. And part of me wonders how much worse the buyrates would be without The Rock (maybe sub 200,000?). Like someone pointed out, the only PPVs to improve were The Rock, The Rock's leftovers, CM Punk, and The Rock.
I definitely don't see why you'd interpret Rock saying "he's never leaving again" to mean... whatever the heck TheRock1525 is saying it means, without going meta and saying to yourself "well Rock is doing a movie right now so he's obviously being metaphorical or something." Which to me is sorta like taking John Cena kissing Eve to be meaningless in kayfabe because he has a wife, and thusly say "hey Zack shouldn't be mad at Cena because Cena obviously has a wife so he clearly wasn't out to betray him" or to say "Jericho isn't actually a dick look at him on Dancing With The Stars." Rock seems like an exception there for the way people typically think, for whatever reason.
Because the WWE is full of hyperbole. The Rock says he's never leaving, Jericho says the world is going to end, Kane is going to drag people to Hell, Undertaker is undead, the Cobra is a legit finisher, etc.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
While we're talking about "The Rock's leftovers", why on earth did they put the title on Cena at Extreme Rules? Don't they get that a decent portion of people turned off because of Cena? >_>
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Oops! I'm breaking the fourth wall! http://imgon.net/di-CFMD.gif
The problem with saying it's hyperbole like those things is that those are all catchphrases or gimmicks that build on the character, and they all get backed up to some extent. Kane may not literally drag people to hell but he does open up flaming pits in the ring. COBRAAA being a legit finisher is kinda ridiculous but he actually does win matches against weaker guys with it. And so on.
It's not really the same thing, unless you're trying to say that The Rock saying he's never leaving and then leaving for 8 months is some sorta gimmick that's meant to sell him as a character.
There's a difference between hyperbole and something that is patently untrue, I guess is what I mean to say.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Lopen posted... The problem with saying it's hyperbole like those things is that those are all catchphrases or gimmicks that build on the character, and they all get backed up to some extent. Kane may not literally drag people to hell but he does open up flaming pits in the ring. COBRAAA being a legit finisher is kinda ridiculous but he actually does win matches against weaker guys with it. And so on.
It's not really the same thing, unless you're trying to say that The Rock saying he's never leaving and then leaving for 8 months is some sorta gimmick that's meant to sell him as a character.
There's a difference between hyperbole and something that is patently untrue, I guess is what I mean to say.
At this point I DO think that's an integral part of rocks character. His lack of presence defines his2012 self.
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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?
Like to me "I'm never leaving again" is a hyperbolic statement on its own, you don't actually need to directly contradict it for it to be hyperbole because someone's always going to leave at some point, because they retire or because they quit or get injured or whatever.
The hyperbolic thing to say for what Rock is doing right now is something along the lines of "tune in because I could show up at any time" or "I'm going to show up a lot more often." Once exaggerations reach a certain point they're typically called lies rather than exaggerations.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
XIII_rocks posted... While we're talking about "The Rock's leftovers", why on earth did they put the title on Cena at Extreme Rules? Don't they get that a decent portion of people turned off because of Cena? >_>
In retrospect, we can safely.say it was a rejection of the mix as champ.
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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?
From: edwardsdv | #167 At this point I DO think that's an integral part of rocks character. His lack of presence defines his2012 self.
It kinda does, and if his character is meant to be written as a hypocrite that's actually kinda cool. (which would be the only real use for it being a character building thing)
That's not quite the same thing that Rock1525 is talking about though, as I'm pretty sure he's trying to argue that his actions are consistent with his words.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
From: TheRock1525 | #118 I think it's because he's super frustrated with the roster.
You know that point where you get so pissed that you can't properly focus your anger?
No, Dave Meltzer is just really poor at speaking clearly. Even when he's not angry he speaks like that.
From: JaKyL25 | #151 Well I don't think ANYONE is saying that they don't want to see Cena vs. The Rock itself.
You are right that I didn't say that, no, but I do kind of feel that. The Rock can make for a very entertaining match with the right person, but I don't really think John Cena is that kind of person. Combined they have a smaller moveset than most guys. I suppose they can just brawl it out for twenty minutes, but brawl matches don't really work unless there's been a really strong build-up to make you care about the two of them punching the crap out of each other. If they can make me forget that this has literally been going on for a year and make me really, really care about the feud in the next uh... four weeks, is it? Then it's got the potential to be a good match. But otherwise, I'm honestly a lot more hyped for the Wrestlemania Undercard with Punk, Jericho, and Byran all in World Title matches. Although I'm concerned that they'll get short matches with how much time is inevitably going to go to the two big matches and filler.
From: XIII_rocks | #165 While we're talking about "The Rock's leftovers", why on earth did they put the title on Cena at Extreme Rules? Don't they get that a decent portion of people turned off because of Cena? >_>
Well they have always and probably still do think that John Cena + Title = Ratings. But in that case, I think at the time they really thought they'd have Cena hold on to the title all the way to his Wrestlemania match with The Rock to make the match bigger. And then they immediately realized that they had eleven months of time to fill.
-- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://i54.tinypic.com/mha5o9.gif
Jericho is doing the exact same thing. The first real promo he did when he came back was s***ing all over the current roster and inserting himself into the ME of Wrestlemania, JUST like The Rock is doing.
Where's all the Jericho rage?
Except RIGHT AFTER THAT Jericho said "and now I have returned to set things right" and followed it up with ACTUALLY SHOWING UP LIVE AND WRESTLING EVERY WEEK.
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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/
A.) Hating on the angle for really doing the worst possible job they could be doing about making us care (thus far) and B.) Explaining why we'll be rooting for Cena during the match itself, just like how we'll be rooting for Punk against Jericho.
Actually, I'm NOT doing A. By presenting a clearly superior choice that half the audience seems to not recognize as superior, they're making ME care especially well. As you might have noticed, I'm not exactly opposed to having to be a crusader for unpopular but obvious opinions!
As far as B goes, I'm actually somewhat neutral in Punk/Jericho, because, as I just pointed out, unlike The Rock, Jericho actually is offering an alternative. Rock "returned" a year ago, Jericho "returned" two months ago, and Jericho has ALREADY wrestled more than Rock has. Even if they both leave right after WM, at least Jericho was around and actually on the roster for a little while.
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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/
I think the reason I'm Team Bring It is that all this "well he left and he doesn't love us as much as he loves movies" thing....doesn't bother me. At all. Like I don't see that as an issue in any way, shape or form. It's just like "...So?"
I think another part of it too is the general sense for some (including myself) that the Cena hate is undeserved, so there's some sympathy there for a guy that busts his ass and has a library of great work and does whatever the company needs getting verbally slammed by someone who abandoned the company when they needed him.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
Yeah, but John Cena as a character is somebody who I never want to see again, because everything that follows him is terrible storylines and unentertaining segments.
That is why I will root for The Rock. Because I don't want to see the Cena character any longer. There's literally nothing more to do with him outside of this. And he's just whined about The Rock and failed to do anything interesting in this feud.
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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!
Even if you believe that they're both terrible wrestlers (although that BOGGLES MY MIND), look at Rock vs. Hogan. Not a great match by any means on a technical level, but such an incredible event. This should be similar, with Rock as Hogan and Cena as Rock.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
Also, I don't really want to see Cena vs The Rock. Because I know Cena is going to win. And Cena is just annoyingly stale at this point. And The Rock isn't having a feud with anyone else who could be even remotely interesting. I'm not that interested in their match at all, and I'd really prefer anything else on the Wrestlemania card. I've just come to terms with it since it's been a year in the making.
I mean, imagine if you had ANYONE interesting in the Cena vs Kane feud replacing Cena. You could, and pretty much everyone DID, predict everything that happened in it. Because Cena is so stale, so boring, and there is literally nowhere for the character to go in the least. He just puts on his angry face and usually forgets that he hates the guy when he needs to the most.
Cena sucks.
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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!
It's only an incredible event if you care about at least one of them though. Instead it's just a bunch of people I don't care about wasting time.
Although I've never seen Hogan/Rock, but there's another match between two guys I couldn't care less about. I can't imagine why I would possibly care about any of it.
-- SuperNiceDog may be the Guru Champion... But SuperBowlGiants are the NFL Champions!
From: PrivateBiscuit1 | #178 And he's just whined about The Rock and failed to do anything interesting in this feud.
I won't dispute any of the rest of your post because those are all valid opinions, but I'm just curious as to what Rock has done in this feud that's interesting. <_<
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: Dauntless Hunter | #181 It's only an incredible event if you care about at least one of them though. Instead it's just a bunch of people I don't care about wasting time.
Although I've never seen Hogan/Rock, but there's another match between two guys I couldn't care less about. I can't imagine why I would possibly care about any of it.
How about Hogan vs. Andre? Ever seen that? Same sort of deal.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: JaKyL25 | #182 I won't dispute any of the rest of your post because those are all valid opinions, but I'm just curious as to what Rock has done in this feud that's interesting. <_<
Nothing!
That's why this feud sucks!
But they've tried to depend on Cena trying to carry the feud using only his whining, and that doesn't work either! It's just The Rock getting the one up on Cena a few times and him going "Well, I guess I don't like The Rock for screwing me a few times, but I guess I respect him." But then suddenly, out of the blue, on RAW when the match gets closer "GRRR THE ROCK MAKES ME SO ANGRY I DON'T LIKE HIM I'M SO LOYAL GUYS YOU SHOULD LOVE ME INSTEAD!"
If Cena weren't so vanilla stale, maybe, just maybe, I could get into the feud. But he's literally been so passive this entire time that it's just like "Why am I supposed to root for this guy again? Because he has been trying to take a moral high ground over stuff he should be much more legitimately pissed off about and should have tried doing something about before this instead of whining?"
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Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1 Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!
From: JaKyL25 | #183 How about Hogan vs. Andre? Ever seen that? Same sort of deal.
I'm not sure. I've seen clips of it but I can't recall if I've ever seen the whole thing.
I'm really bad at caring about these supposed "big" matches. Especially when they're non-title and with no other consequences on the line. I just don't care about whether Cena wins or Rock wins, because either way nothing changes. Rock wins, he leaves again and Cena moves on to his next feud, probably going for the title again sooner rather than later. Cena wins and... the exact same thing happens? Who cares!
-- SuperNiceDog may be the Guru Champion... But SuperBowlGiants are the NFL Champions!
I guess when it comes down to it, I am extremely interested purely in the idea of The Rock wrestling John Cena 1-on-1 to find out who's better. All the garbage they've done to promote the match has added nothing, and does distract from that ultimate goal, but none of it changes the fact that at the end of it all, I get to see that dream matchup.
Others apparently couldn't care less about seeing them wrestle and need better build and firmer stakes. Two things which would definitely HELP the match, that I cannot deny.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
I'd be super excited if this was just some unannounced thing on Raw one night, because then I wouldn't have a chance to build expectations. Or hell, even if it had been an impromptu match to settle things after Cena vs Miz last year. That would have had me excited. But when you announce a match a year in advance, I tend to want a good build and perhaps some firm stakes, yeah.
-- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z430/RadLink5/valdez.gif
That's not announcing a match, that's announcing a concept!
I mean, we kinda know that at Royal Rumble 2013 there will be a Royal Rumble match, and that's not a problem, but announcing all 30 guys today would be silly.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
(If they ever do decide to unify the titles that would be a great way to do it though. It would give them genuine meaning throughout the interim year. I think maybe announcing it after Summerslam might be better though; a year might be too much time.)
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg