Board 8 > Homestuck General Discussion: A dynamic situation with many moving parts.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 10:11:00 AM
#251:


From: tcaz2 | #250
It looks exactly the same as all the other rings without the orbs!


external image

Notice anything?

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 10:19:00 AM
#252:


From: tcaz2 | #250
And no, there's a lot of evidence for pre-destination about everything in Sburb. It would be silly to assume just this one thing wasn't.


Yeah, but since when does Hussie not throw curveballs at us? Aradia having a dream self was a pretty damn big one in a similar manner. Hell, he flat-out had a chart in 5-1 indicating that she didn't have one after Sollux got revived.

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tcaz2
02/18/12 10:25:00 AM
#253:


From: kevwaffles | #251
external image

Notice anything?


That she doesn't have the same ring on she does in the flash? Yep! It's on a totally different finger in the flash.

Even if it wasn't the prototype ring, though, there's still WAY more things suggesting there won't be prototypes before entering the medium than not, though (if indeed there even are any at all).

From: kevwaffles | #252
Yeah, but since when does Hussie not throw curveballs at us? Aradia having a dream self was a pretty damn big one in a similar manner. Hell, he flat-out had a chart in 5-1 indicating that she didn't have one after Sollux got revived.


That's only a curveball if you fail to notice things, just like this. Aradia having a dream self was perfectly logical and foreshadowed because it was shown it was possible to wake up years before starting to play.

EDIT: And I should note, the chart was made from the perspective of the trolls, who just assumed that Aradia didn't have one.

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Altimadark
02/18/12 10:26:00 AM
#254:


Yeah, when I saw Condesce wearing that ring, I initially thought it was her own -- like she was just dressing down to better fit the role of Black Queen, and that the real Queen's Ring had been locked away somewhere.

Now, I'm not so sure...

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 10:40:00 AM
#255:


From: tcaz2 | #253
That she doesn't have the same ring on she does in the flash? Yep! It's on a totally different finger in the flash.


For the love of, you are being way too literal. Is it really that much harder to believe she wouldn't switch what ring the finger was on? Or that Hussie simply didn't plan that minute of a design detail in advance and opted for slight design changes from her very brief appearances in order to make it fit references to previous flashes like he did all throughout this flash?

I'm not saying it's impossible for her to be wearing the prototyping ring, but it's far from set in stone. Besides, if the no prototyping theory is correct, she has even less of a reason to be wearing it. The ring will have absolutely no significance at all.

That's only a curveball if you fail to notice things, just like this. Aradia having a dream self was perfectly logical and foreshadowed because it was shown it was possible to wake up years before starting to play.


That made absolutely no sense in relation to Aradia. How does waking up years in advance mean she has one when he flat out told us she didn't? Also, you're ignoring the bigger point where she didn't even have her own dream tower. There was absolutely no precedence for that at the time.

Even if it wasn't the prototype ring, though, there's still WAY more things suggesting there won't be prototypes before entering the medium than not, though (if indeed there even are any at all).


Can you give me anything we haven't discussed? Anything? I'm honestly curious.

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tcaz2
02/18/12 10:52:00 AM
#256:


From: kevwaffles | #255
For the love of, you are being way too literal. Is it really that much harder to believe she wouldn't switch what ring the finger was on? Or that Hussie simply didn't plan that minute of a design detail in advance and opted for slight design changes from her very brief appearances in order to make it fit references to previous flashes like he did all throughout this flash?


By the laws of storytelling, and Hussie's own admission that he intentionally puts little details like that in so people can notice them numerous times before, yes.

I mean, its not impossible for it to be a mistake, but assuming something is wrong instead of right until proven otherwise is just not a good way to think of a story.

I'm not saying it's impossible for her to be wearing the prototyping ring, but it's far from set in stone. Besides, if the no prototyping theory is correct, she has even less of a reason to be wearing it. The ring will have absolutely no significance at all.


You mean aside from marking her as the leader of Derse, which, you know, they do, and was specifically mentioned they do several times before.

That made absolutely no sense in relation to Aradia. How does waking up years in advance mean she has one when he flat out told us she didn't? Also, you're ignoring the bigger point where she didn't even have her own dream tower. There was absolutely no precedence for that at the time.


The trolls Derse isn't even shown zoomed out enough to see the prototype towers until [S] Wake, and oh man I just checked, guess how many there are??

That's right, 12.

Can you give me anything we haven't discussed? Anything? I'm honestly curious.


No, because there isn't any. There's still more than nothing, however, which is what the 'there will be prototyping!' side has.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 10:56:00 AM
#257:


From: tcaz2 | #256
The trolls Derse isn't even shown zoomed out enough to see the prototype towers until [S] Wake, and oh man I just checked, guess how many there are??

That's right, 12.


12 prototype towers for each. 11 dream towers, 6 for Prospit, 5 for Derse.

external image

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tcaz2
02/18/12 10:56:00 AM
#258:


From: kevwaffles | #257
12 prototype towers. 11 dream towers.


Woops, got caught up in the prototype discussion. You're right on that, there are only 5.

However, it still was never shown zoomed out enough to see them until that flash anyway, and is thus irrelevant.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 11:09:00 AM
#259:


From: tcaz2 | #256
I mean, its not impossible for it to be a mistake, but assuming something is wrong instead of right until proven otherwise is just not a good way to think of a story.


I'm not calling it a mistake, so much as completely unimportant at that point. And I still don't think changing what finger your ring is on is that big of a deal regardless.

Also, you could argue unreliable narrator for most of the images of the ancestors since they don't get viewed in real time, but I'll admit that's a stretch.

From: tcaz2 | #258
However, it still was never shown zoomed out enough to see them until that flash anyway, and is thus irrelevant.


My original point is that he hides twists through exceptions in pre-destination.

No, because there isn't any. There's still more than nothing, however, which is what the 'there will be prototyping!' side has.


So basically I'm arguing that it's inconclusive based on different circumstances from previous sessions (namely when we are seeing Prospit and Derse), and you're just ignoring even the slightest potential that that fact has any significance whatsoever.

I don't even think the no prototyping theory is necessarily wrong. If I were a betting man, which I am not, I'd put my money on this theory. But until Jane enters I still see both possibilities as fairly likely.

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tcaz2
02/18/12 11:20:00 AM
#260:


From: kevwaffles | #259
My original point is that he hides twists through exceptions in pre-destination.


That sentence doesn't even make sense because by definition there isn't any exceptions to pre-destination. Also, Hussie's never done that, even if it DID make sense.

He hides twists by misdirection. Almost all of them are in plain site. Seriously, there's a LOT of precedent for him just outright stating big 'twists' but people not getting it because they don't take it literally or take it differently than a character means.

I mean just look at all the Doc Scratch stuff. Green sun is the mass of two universes, outright stating Vriska will die before the end, etc etc.

So basically I'm arguing that it's inconclusive based on different circumstances from previous sessions (namely when we are seeing Prospit and Derse), and you're just ignoring even the slightest potential that that fact has any significance whatsoever.


It's obviously inconclusive because it's a theory of an event that hasn't happened yet, and thus hasn't been concluded. It's just a theory that is almost assuredly right, based on prior evidence that corroborates it.

Whereas on the other hand, there is no evidence at all that there will be prototypes beforehand. Literally zero. Like, I mean, you can argue all day long that the Condesce doesn't have the prototype ring, and oh no it gets rid of ONE piece of evidence. The scales are still overwhelmingly in favor of one outcome over the other, even still.

Obviously it's not set in stone that it won't because again, it hasn't happened yet, but that doesn't give you a free pass to just ignore what's been shown and said in the series.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 11:26:00 AM
#261:


http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004405

This is what I'm talking about with Aradia, btw.

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JeffreyRaze
02/18/12 11:33:00 AM
#262:


Wouldn't that mean Prospit should have 7 dream towers then? Maybe Sollux doesn't get towers >_>

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 11:33:00 AM
#263:


From: tcaz2 | #260
I mean just look at all the Doc Scratch stuff. Green sun is the mass of two universes, outright stating Vriska will die before the end, etc etc.


And why did basically no one catch on to what was going on with the Green Sun? Because we only payed attention to what was being told and shown to us, without considering what wasn't being said. We didn't properly consider the significance of the things Doc Scratch didn't bother to clarify.

(Also, I was slightly wrong. Troll Prospit had 7 dream towers. Forgot to count Sollux twice.)

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 11:34:00 AM
#264:


From: JeffreyRaze | #262
Wouldn't that mean Prospit should have 7 dream towers then? Maybe Sollux doesn't get towers >_>


Yeah, I realized my mistake after looking that page up.

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HeroDelTiempo17
02/18/12 11:35:00 AM
#265:


One thing that's kind of unclear is that the first time we saw Prospit was from Jade's perspective, and it definitely had the prototyping towers at that point. But because of shenanigans in the way the story was told, that could actually have been before John actually entered the game.

Something to consider.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 11:37:00 AM
#266:


From: HeroDelTiempo17 | #265
One thing that's kind of unclear is that the first time we saw Prospit was from Jade's perspective, and it definitely had the prototyping towers at that point. But because of shenanigans in the way the story was told, that could actually have been before John actually entered the game.

Something to consider.


Oh, hell. You might be right here. Finding that page now.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 12:06:00 PM
#267:


http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002973

I assume you're referring to this flash. Despite John participating in the conversation before he travels to the Medium, relative to the Medium's timeline it happens after he goes to sleep in the Medium.

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002551

Edit: You probably meant this: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002926

Actually, I guess this could have happened slightly before. But that would be quite a lot of time elapsed between those 2 flashes for that to be the case. And if you go through the pages, they seem to happen pretty close in sequence, especially since it's within the same dream sequence for Jade.

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Takfloyd_mkII__
02/18/12 12:13:00 PM
#268:


I think someone needs to mention that time on Earth means nothing on Derse. It's a completely separate timeline. So I'm pretty sure "the game hasn't started yet" is a moot concept, and there would always have been 4 prototyping towers if 4 players were going to prototype.

So either they aren't going to, or the Condesce destroyed the towers for some reason, maybe to ensure the game would be unwinnable. But that's just stupid speculation.
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Nogoodnamesnow
02/18/12 12:18:00 PM
#269:


kevwaffles posted...

Actually, I guess this could have happened slightly before. But that would be quite a lot of time elapsed between those 2 flashes for that to be the case. And if you go through the pages, they seem to happen pretty close in sequence, especially since it's within the same dream sequence for Jade.


They're definitely before. It's just shown as fast as it is in the flash for brevity's sake. While the Medium being in a timeless expanse does make certain hijinks like this more likely, remember that Jade's robot is the one typing things on her computer for John to read, and that is limited to Earth's time.

And this is the flash that has the prototyping towers in it:

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002926

It takes place before any of the conversations in that flash.

I mean, I have a hard time saying something will absolutely definitely not happen, because it's Homestuck. But at the very least it seems unlikely

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 12:19:00 PM
#270:


From: Takfloyd_mkII__ | #268
I think someone needs to mention that time on Earth means nothing on Derse. It's a completely separate timeline. So I'm pretty sure "the game hasn't started yet" is a moot concept, and there would always have been 4 prototyping towers if 4 players were going to prototype.


The timeline of any Universe relative to itself still has meaning, though. And the game still has not started relative to the Medium's own timeline. And we only know that to be the case for the dream towers, not the prototyping towers. It's not like there isn't precedence for much more massive landscape and planet creation upon a player's entry.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 12:21:00 PM
#271:


From: Nogoodnamesnow | #269
And this is the flash that has the prototyping towers in it:

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002926


Yeah, I mentioned that...

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 12:27:00 PM
#272:


From: Nogoodnamesnow | #269
While the Medium being in a timeless expanse does make certain hijinks like this more likely


The Medium is not timeless. It's never been timeless. Otherwise the countdowns to the reckonings and the scratch would have been pointless.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 12:29:00 PM
#273:


I have a much easier way to settle this. Does anyone know where to find the timeline Hussie released before Cascade?

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HeroDelTiempo17
02/18/12 12:29:00 PM
#274:


From: Takfloyd_mkII__ | #268
I think someone needs to mention that time on Earth means nothing on Derse. It's a completely separate timeline. So I'm pretty sure "the game hasn't started yet" is a moot concept, and there would always have been 4 prototyping towers if 4 players were going to prototype.


This is true, but even though the timelines are different, they're still "linked" in a way that time flow passes evenly or at a similar rate between the Medium and the Universe. That why when John enters the game from Earth, he appears in the Medium at the "same" time, and why the other entries also sync up. Or for a more complex example, how all the crazy shenanigans in Cascade happened concurrently.

Scratch explained it once, as "circumstantially simultaneous."

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HeroDelTiempo17
02/18/12 12:35:00 PM
#275:


From: kevwaffles | #273
I have a much easier way to settle this. Does anyone know where to find the timeline Hussie released before Cascade?


oh uh good idea

external image

John enters the Incipisphere...before Jade places a package, or something.

Also, remembering right, the actual prototyping of the towers doesn't happen until the Kernelsprite also enters the Incipisphere, but who knows about the actual towers.

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yoius2
02/18/12 12:37:00 PM
#276:


kevwaffles posted...
From: Nogoodnamesnow | #269
And this is the flash that has the prototyping towers in it:

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002926
Yeah, I mentioned that...


Oh, whoops. I think that link wasn't there when I first read the post. Oh well. And I didn't mean that the medium was literally without time, I was referring to it in the way it has been mentioned in the comic several times.
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Nogoodnamesnow
02/18/12 12:41:00 PM
#277:


yoius2 posted...
kevwaffles posted...
From: Nogoodnamesnow | #269
And this is the flash that has the prototyping towers in it:

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=002926
Yeah, I mentioned that...

Oh, whoops. I think that link wasn't there when I first read the post. Oh well. And I didn't mean that the medium was literally without time, I was referring to it in the way it has been mentioned in the comic several times.


Double whoops, wrong account. Jesus, I've never even USED that account. My brain is not working right, so I'll post later.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 12:41:00 PM
#278:


From: yoius2 | #276
Oh, whoops. I think that link wasn't there when I first read the post. Oh well. And I didn't mean that the medium was literally without time, I was referring to it in the way it has been mentioned in the comic several times.


Technically it was because you quoted part of my edit, but since I put it in the line above I'd understand missing it anyways.

And fair enough on what you meant there. It's not like discussing timelines for Homestuck isn't confusing enough as it is.

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SunnyX
02/18/12 1:07:00 PM
#279:


I see it as process of elimination. We've seen every combination of prototypings possible up to this point, excluding the two that rely on not prototyping before entering and I guess not prototyping at all. This is most likely our last chance to see anything new in regards to prototyping. I just don't think Hussie will pass up on the chance.

The question I'm left with is what this does to their session, and I can't even begin to fathom an answer.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 1:26:00 PM
#280:


From: SunnyX | #279
I see it as process of elimination. We've seen every combination of prototypings possible up to this point, excluding the two that rely on not prototyping before entering and I guess not prototyping at all. This is most likely our last chance to see anything new in regards to prototyping. I just don't think Hussie will pass up on the chance.


Unless it does something besides what Rose described to Jane, I'm not sure what there is to gain from this. But I can't say that for certain. Besides, since when did I start taking all of Rose's assumptions from that point in the story to be 100% correct again?

Also, on an earlier note, I'm going to rescind my opinion on the Condesce wearing the Queen's ring, for the sole basis that it's probably a symbol of royalty to the Dersites (and Prospitians). Thus wearing it would have meaning. Of course, that would mean that for the no-prototyping towers to be a misdirect, the ring has to change as well, but I see that as no more unlikely than the towers forming, at the very least.

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HanOfTheNekos
02/18/12 2:27:00 PM
#281:


When PM was given the ring, she was considered the new queen.

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kevwaffles
02/18/12 4:32:00 PM
#282:


From: HanOfTheNekos | #281
When PM was given the ring, she was considered the new queen.


A very good point.

(Does anyone else basically forget to consider everything that happened to the Exiles on Earth after WQ showed up, excluding Cascade of course? They stopped all their wacky hijinks at that point and got kind of boring.)

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Some_Character
02/18/12 4:35:00 PM
#283:


Aw nuts.

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Paratroopa1
02/18/12 4:36:00 PM
#284:


I basically never paid attention to the Exiles at all and I still don't. They feel bizarrely out of place with the rest of Homestuck's narrative and I can't really bring myself to give a s***.
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Paratroopa1
02/18/12 4:44:00 PM
#285:


I like how he keeps bringing back the butler island joke.
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tereziWright
02/18/12 5:36:00 PM
#286:


So I guess this means Jake is religious

/Tumblr

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Natwaf_akidna
02/18/12 5:40:00 PM
#287:


Buttwhoopin'

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Takfloyd_mkII__
02/18/12 5:42:00 PM
#288:


I stand by my position that the AR is being a creepy evil AI, either ironically or not.
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HeroDelTiempo17
02/18/12 6:24:00 PM
#289:


From: tereziWright | #286
So I guess this means Jake is religious

/Tumblr


Well someone's going to be disappointed.

Loving omnipotent father figure?

NOPE

SPACE FROGS

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tereziWright
02/18/12 7:19:00 PM
#290:


Man, these zip hoodies are NICE.

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tereziWright
02/18/12 10:30:00 PM
#291:


whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT

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Paratroopa1
02/18/12 10:34:00 PM
#292:


uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Sceptilesolarbeam
02/18/12 10:36:00 PM
#293:


Hello, uh, nerd Vriska?

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Viktor Vaughn
02/18/12 10:36:00 PM
#294:


loll

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Paratroopa1
02/18/12 10:36:00 PM
#295:


I think it's pre-scratch Mindfang, but like, what the f***? why?
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Viktor Vaughn
02/18/12 10:36:00 PM
#296:


mindfang.

it's mindfang

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tereziWright
02/18/12 10:39:00 PM
#297:


i just don't

i can't

i

can't

i

i

iiiiiiii

AND IT DON'T STOP

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Not_an_Owl
02/18/12 10:40:00 PM
#298:


Apparently Vriska isn't totally out of the story after all? I'm okay with this.

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tereziWright
02/18/12 10:43:00 PM
#299:


Get ready.

http://ib.skaia.net/

The race is on.

*F5*

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tereziWright
02/18/12 10:48:00 PM
#300:


Guys.

Guys.

Her hair.

It's a combination of John and Vriskas.

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