Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 165: CANE HUGHIE

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 11:52:00 AM
#451:


Ziggler had better fundamentals than Punk tbh. <_<

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Rad Link 5
01/22/12 11:56:00 AM
#452:


Well depending on who you're asking, yes. Obviously younger people are going to have no idea who Dean is and think Punk and Ziggler are the bee's knees. I think most people who've been watching for a couple decades now and really really care about the in-ring work will pick Malenko over either, but that could be just as biased of an opinion since he never had any charisma to distract from his ring work; the only thing anyone is ever going to remember Dean for is how good he was in the ring, whereas Punk's ability on the mic manages to overshadow his ring work pretty soundly.

Like you said earlier, it's highly subjective. I'm not sure you'd get a clear winner if you asked people who've seen both Malenko and Punk/Ziggler, although I do believe Malenko would have the edge.

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:01:00 PM
#453:


I think of Punk as more of a Shawn Michaels type, in that neither one is an elite fundamentally sound technical wrestler, but the showmanship aspect of their work overwhelms some occasional sloppiness.

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voltch
01/22/12 12:03:00 PM
#454:


Yeah, but a lot of the people here who think Punk and Ziggler are the bee's knees were attitude era fans. It's why Jericho, Stone Cold, The Rock and Shawn Michaels are incredibly popular. But while I myself like Punk and Ziggler more because like you said Malenko was a blockhead when it comes to charisma. It doesn't mean that Dean isn't probably a better wrestler in the ring.

Dunno man just been seeing a little more of his stuff on Dailymotion because I found him kinda intriguing and what I see is a skillful guy.

Like say Dean Malenko had a tragic high profile accident, would he be mentioned earlier in debates over skill?

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:05:00 PM
#455:


From: voltch | #454
Like say Dean Malenko had a tragic high profile accident, would he be mentioned earlier in debates over skill?


Here's his '80s analog: Bob Backlund.

I don't think death is gonna elevate Backlund's status any.

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voltch
01/22/12 12:07:00 PM
#456:


Even if he had died in the ring on PPV?

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:07:00 PM
#457:


In fact, I think that Backlund is probably MORE REMEMBERED for his brief '90s run where he played a great character than he is for his six-year world title reign.

That's how far pure in-ring skills gets you. <_<

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voltch
01/22/12 12:09:00 PM
#458:


Couldn't you make a case for Bret Hart being that as well to Cenation kids? They've never seen Bret Hart matches.

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:09:00 PM
#459:


I dunno, I'm struggling to think of a wrestler who was elevated above his previous station long-term after death.

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:11:00 PM
#460:


From: voltch | #458
Couldn't you make a case for Bret Hart being that as well to Cenation kids? They've never seen Bret Hart matches.


Nah, it's more a pre-Hogan/post-Hogan thing.

Everything post-Hogan is always gonna be more remembered than pre-Hogan due to the explosion of the business and the increase in video archival technology.

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Chronic1000
01/22/12 12:12:00 PM
#461:


I just think that people simply don't remember Dean Malenko, except as the guy that Jericho berated for months when he turned heel in WCW, or as the Radicalz member that didn't die, kill his family, or disappear for years >_>.

Also since we're talking about Dean Malenko (and I've always wanted an excuse to do this) Here's two matches of his from WCW!

Dean Malenko(c) vs. Rey Mysterio Jr for the WCW Cruiserweight Championship - July 8th 1996 Nitro (the day after Bash at the Beach)



Chris Benoit vs. Dean Malenko - Hog Wild 1996
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6n1ig_dean-malenko-vs-chris-benoit-hog-wi_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6n21e_dean-malenko-vs-chris-benoit-hog-wi_sport


It is matches like that that make me miss my doing the Nitro watchthrough.

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voltch
01/22/12 12:15:00 PM
#462:


This is the most Dean Malenko talk to have happened in years. But didn't we have a debate over Eddie Vs. Shawn and Shawn sorta edged Eddie due to having more high profile matches?

Well if you go on just the matches with in ring quality, Malenko's got no shortage of those!

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:18:00 PM
#463:


And one thing that sucks for Malenko as generations pass will be that a large chunk of his best work was in ECW, and ECW has (unfairly) already cemented its reputation as the home for hardcore wrestling and hardcore wrestling and more hardcore wrestling.

Like, I'm sure there must have been a lot of great stuff in World Class Championship Wrestling beyond the Von Erichs and the Freebirds, but that's the sole legacy the company carries today. No one except the staunchest historians is gonna seek out great technical wrestling in ECW's library.

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Rad Link 5
01/22/12 12:21:00 PM
#464:


I typed out a thing about how Shawn Michaels was a good technical wrestler, if perhaps not up in that upper "elite" echelon, and how he still had amazing match after amazing match due to his incredible psychology and ability to feel and manipulate the pulse of the crowd.

And how he can sell like nobody else:


But then GameWeasel didn't store the message properly.

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GTM
01/22/12 12:22:00 PM
#465:


as a (horrible) person who only knows stuff from 2002-onward, this conversation only reminds me of this



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voltch
01/22/12 12:23:00 PM
#466:


That does indeed suck. Like there's a few uncharismatic blockheads I saw in the WWF like Doug Furnas they are very incidental.

But when i was still doing the Puro watchnights we saw a guy who was years ahead of his time in japan.



that match was very well received by all those who saw it, but yeah looks like as the years go by Malenko might slip into that whole irrelevant status.

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Rad Link 5
01/22/12 12:28:00 PM
#467:


Eh. Everyone becomes irrelevant eventually. The name Hogan means next to nothing to the Cenation kids, I think, and probably won't even be recognizable to the generation after them. We'll get old and die one day, and then people won't even remember The Rock.

For guys like Malenko, it just happens a bit sooner. At the very least, I still see a few guys from the pre-Hogan era mentioned in "Top Technical Wrestler" lists somehow, so if there's hope for them, there's hope for him.

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:28:00 PM
#468:


From: GTM | #465
as a (horrible) person who only knows stuff from 2002-onward, this conversation only reminds me of this


Man, talk about an underrated gimmick. He would have been a star in the New Generation.

I would pay to see Simon Dean trying to get Brodus Clay on the Simon System.

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voltch
01/22/12 12:30:00 PM
#469:


Harder to forget when there's plenty of high quality video footage of your career on display.

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the icon ownz all
01/22/12 12:32:00 PM
#470:


From: JaKyL25 | #468
Man, talk about an underrated gimmick. He would have been a star in the New Generation.


He would have been a tag champ managed by Sunny!


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TheKoolAidShoto
01/22/12 12:32:00 PM
#471:


Chronic1000 posted...


Dean Malenko(c) vs. Rey Mysterio Jr for the WCW Cruiserweight Championship - July 8th 1996 Nitro (the day after Bash at the Beach)




This one's great, but I like the HH96 one more

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6i1d1_rey-mysterio-vs-dean-malenko-27-10_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6i1ct_rey-mysterio-vs-dean-malenko-27-10_sport

As for Dean-o the Machine-O vs Punk, Dean's a better in-ring wrestler, but I would build my company around Punk before even thinking about Melanko.

In fact, its time for the impromptu TEN WRESTLERS YOU WOULD BUILD YOUR FANTASY COMPANY AROUND. Any era or company, doesn't matter

1. Ric Flair (’89 version)

2. Shawn Michaels (’93-’96 version)

3. Steve Austin (pre-neck injury Attitude era)

4. Chris Jericho (’99 version)

5. Bruiser Brody (1984 Japan version)

6. Bret Hart (1994-1996 version)

7. Randy Savage (early ’80s Memphis version)

8. Ricky Steamboat (’87-’89 version)

9. Cactus Jack (ECW version)

10. CM Punk (current WWE era)

and for a tag-team, give me the 86 Midnight Express and a bunch of jobbers for them to squash EVERY WEEK

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:34:00 PM
#472:


From: Rad Link 5 | #467
Eh. Everyone becomes irrelevant eventually. The name Hogan means next to nothing to the Cenation kids, I think, and probably won't even be recognizable to the generation after them. We'll get old and die one day, and then people won't even remember The Rock.


Well sure, I mean if you extrapolate out exponentially the Ozymandias effect hits everything that was ever created.

I think we're talking more about that "smarter" level of fan that understands wrestling history, like us.

There are probably TONS of great technical wrestlers throughout the last century that even we are just clueless about.

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voltch
01/22/12 12:34:00 PM
#473:


Which climate are we building our feds around? Are we in a booming economy? The present, who's our audience?

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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:37:00 PM
#474:


From: TheKoolAidShoto | #471
1. Ric Flair (’89 version)

2. Shawn Michaels (’93-’96 version)

3. Steve Austin (pre-neck injury Attitude era)

4. Chris Jericho (’99 version)

5. Bruiser Brody (1984 Japan version)

6. Bret Hart (1994-1996 version)

7. Randy Savage (early ’80s Memphis version)

8. Ricky Steamboat (’87-’89 version)

9. Cactus Jack (ECW version)

10. CM Punk (current WWE era)




Chris Jericho is gonna be jobbing out SO HARD on this roster.

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TheKoolAidShoto
01/22/12 12:38:00 PM
#475:


assume no PPVs and no large events to build to, and you only have so many workers so they all have to work with each other and mix it up to keep it fresh

And keeping that in mind, Bruiser Brody is limited in who he can work with. Replace him with Kurt Angle, 2002 edition

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Rad Link 5
01/22/12 12:43:00 PM
#476:


From: JaKyL25 | #472
I think we're talking more about that "smarter" level of fan that understands wrestling history, like us.

There are probably TONS of great technical wrestlers throughout the last century that even we are just clueless about.


Oh. Well I'm pretty sure "smarter" fans will always know about Malenko just because the new "smarter" fans will hear the older "smarter" fans posting links to his best matches like we are right now.

I'm pretty sure "smarter" fans will have a pretty high retention rate for wrestlers who worked from the mid-90s onward thanks to the abundance of frequently shared YouTube/Dailymotion footage. Maybe I'm just delusional in that respect, but I still think the hardcore fans will have seen some Malenko matches ten/twenty years from now.

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edwardsdv
01/22/12 12:45:00 PM
#477:


From: GTM | #465
as a (horrible) person who only knows stuff from 2002-onward, this conversation only reminds me of this




I really do think we need more of this.

5 years from now, will anyone remember Tyson Kidd, presuming he goes nowhere?

What about Drew McIntyre? Yoshi Tatsu? Does anyone remember Sim Snuka? Duke Droese? Joey Mercury? Billy Kidman? Paul London?

Would anyone still remember Eric Escobar if not for his strange name pronunciation? Would anyone who only knew him from WWF remember Perry Saturn if not for Moppy?

Yet we're able to recall guys who were midcarders or even jobbers based on their memorable gimmicks, like Al Snow, Mr. Ass Eugene, Repo Man, the Fabulous Rougeau Brothers, hell on the WCW side of things Hugh Morrus, Glacier, Mortis, etc.

Even guys like Mordecai who were all gimmick and around for like a second still get brought up by people who watched at that point.

Point is for guys who were never gonna be the next Cena, I dont see what a crazy gimmck can hurt. And for the truly special guys (Ziggler, Austin, Cody Rhodes) you can overcome the crazy gimmick eventually. For everyone else, it gives the audience a chance to care about you even a little and hell maybe even move a little merchandise based on some crazy thing you said.

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TheKoolAidShoto
01/22/12 12:47:00 PM
#478:


That's why I'm so behind the Funkasarus thing. He could have been another generic monster heel #4823, but instead, he's got a funny memorable gimmick. We got too many generic guys in black tights nowadays.

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voltch
01/22/12 12:49:00 PM
#479:


Everybody wants to be the next Goldberg, Rock, Austin and Triple H with dem black tights.

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the icon ownz all
01/22/12 12:52:00 PM
#480:


From: TheKoolAidShoto | #471
In fact, its time for the impromptu TEN WRESTLERS YOU WOULD BUILD YOUR FANTASY COMPANY AROUND. Any era or company, doesn't matter

1. Ric Flair (’89 version)

2. Shawn Michaels (’93-’96 version)

3. Steve Austin (pre-neck injury Attitude era)

4. Chris Jericho (’99 version)

5. Bruiser Brody (1984 Japan version)

6. Bret Hart (1994-1996 version)

7. Randy Savage (early ’80s Memphis version)

8. Ricky Steamboat (’87-’89 version)

9. Cactus Jack (ECW version)

10. CM Punk (current WWE era)

and for a tag-team, give me the 86 Midnight Express and a bunch of jobbers for them to squash EVERY WEEK


It's an impromptu list if you steal if from a wrestling journalist:

http://www.rspwfaq.com/2011/03/31/but-who-would-be-the-money-mark/


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JaKyL25
01/22/12 12:54:00 PM
#481:


From: edwardsdv | #477
I really do think we need more of this.


I agree totally. You can even look at the career of ONE MAN to confirm this.

People remember Papa Shango. People remember The Godfather. No one except voltch remembers Kama.

All the same guy!

Shows the importance of memorable gimmicks.

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Wanglicious
01/22/12 12:58:00 PM
#482:


10 guys to build a company around?

1) Steve Austin (Attitude Era)
2) The Rock (Attitude Era)
3) Chris Jericho (Y2J)
4) CM Punk (Summer of Punk *1* version)
5) Kurt Angle (whatever it was when he gave his "I hate the black people" promo)
6) Austin Aries (2nd ROH title run)
7) Bryan Danielson (ROH)
8) Tozawa (Dragon Gate, current)
9) Stevie Williams (All Japan Pro Wrestling)
10) Eddie Guerrero (am honestly not sure which is the best era for him)


pretty sure that'd work on every level as a base to work with. needed a top notch latino wrestler who could work a mic in both languages. list was cut down hard, and got cut harder when "also a relatively safe guy" gets added to the mix.

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Rad Link 5
01/22/12 12:58:00 PM
#483:


I happen to remember all of them (Joey Mercury, Paul London, etc.).

But gimmicks are definitely a good thing. At worst, you never make it past jobbing and people remember your gimmick/buy your merchandise. At good, you outgrow your gimmick and become a main eventer. At best, your gimmick is so over that you actually incorporate a toned down version of your gimmick into your main event character. Or maybe it's not toned down at all. Maybe you're Mankind and still win the WWE Championship.

Speaking of Mankind, I was thinking about this the other day: could you ever picture a guy who looks like Mick Foley ever even being signed by WWE? Let alone being the top champion?

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voltch
01/22/12 12:59:00 PM
#484:


How dare people not remember the Supreme fighting machine!

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Wanglicious
01/22/12 1:00:00 PM
#485:


...man icon. called him out on it like 10 minutes in. did you steal jakyl's powers or something.

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Wanglicious
01/22/12 1:01:00 PM
#486:


could you ever picture a guy who looks like Mick Foley ever even being signed by WWE? Let alone being the top champion?

i can picture kevin steen in WWE, yes.

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the icon ownz all
01/22/12 1:08:00 PM
#487:


no, koolaid is a plagiarist. the majority of his posts come from neogaf, but occasionally they come from other sources.

edit: i did not say chronological what are you talking about


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edwardsdv
01/22/12 1:08:00 PM
#488:


1.) Hulk Hogan WM 3- no one was more over and sold more seats, EVER. He's the draw.

2.) Ric Flair '88- Horsemen are in their prime, Flair's stuff is all fresh and exciting, and his promo ability is STILL off the charts.

3.) Dusty Rhodes (HARD TIMES edition)- Dusty has never been the best worker, but at that time, with that gimmick watching a guy who looks like the slobs you work with get the best of the big muscleheads is just really relatable I think -- incidentally they need to rebrand Husky Harris that way stat!

4.) Steve Austin- pre-neck injury attitude- top 5 worker, top 5 promo artist, dedicated to his craft

5.) Psycho Sid Vicious (early WCW version where he could still leap frog 6 foot tall dudes) - Any roster featuring Hogan NEEDS a giant for him to fight so yeah.

6.) Ricky Steamboat- 86-88 feuding with Flair version

7.) Bret Hart any pre-stroke version

8.) Shawn Michaels first World champ run version

9.) Dolph Ziggler- current-3 years from now version- I like him a lot and hes only gonna get better

10.) Kurt Angle 2002 version- the man was unstoppable on all fronts

Tag Division-

Rock and Roll Express
Cryme Tyme
Rougeau brother
Midnight Express
Steiner Brothers
Doug Furnas and Phil LaFar

Oh yeah and the horsemen- Tully, Arn and Windham to freebird

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Rad Link 5
01/22/12 1:10:00 PM
#489:


From: Wanglicious | #486
i can picture kevin steen in WWE, yes.


Eh. Even Kevin Steen looks more strong and intimidating than Foley in Foley's prime.

From: the icon ownz all | #487
koolaid is a chronological plagiarist.


He plagiarizes in sequential order of time?

Don't you ninja me damn it.

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voltch
01/22/12 1:10:00 PM
#490:


I want ten big black guys.

Gotta corner my market kinda like how Fox News corners theirs.

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edwardsdv
01/22/12 1:11:00 PM
#491:


From: voltch | #479
Everybody wants to be the next Goldberg, Rock, Austin and Triple H with dem black tights.


Doldberg and Rock aside,

Austin and Trips had pretty ridiculous gimmicks at one point!

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Wanglicious
01/22/12 1:13:00 PM
#492:


if you settle for a small flippy one you can get Rich Swann, who between now and the next 10 years of his life is going to be a star.

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voltch
01/22/12 1:13:00 PM
#493:


Well at the very least Trips had a different outfit during his ridiculous gimmick.

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GTM
01/22/12 1:20:00 PM
#494:


Pirate Paul Burchill was the biggest dropped ball ever

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edwardsdv
01/22/12 1:22:00 PM
#495:


From: Rad Link 5 | #483
I happen to remember all of them (Joey Mercury, Paul London, etc.).


You remeber Duke Droese? Because I just pulled him from the Alumni page not knowing who he was!

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GTM
01/22/12 1:23:00 PM
#496:


based on his name, I assume its Droz who used to write articles on the old WWE.com >___>

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GTM
01/22/12 1:24:00 PM
#497:


I googled it, looks like I'm wrong!

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the icon ownz all
01/22/12 1:25:00 PM
#498:


my only memory of duke the dumpster droese is him defeating someone on a free for all to earn entry into the royal rumble


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voltch
01/22/12 1:28:00 PM
#499:


Go Dean!

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voltch
01/22/12 1:29:00 PM
#500:


From: the icon ownz all | #498
my only memory of duke the dumpster droese is him defeating someone on a free for all to earn entry into the royal rumble


Triple H!

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