Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 411: Presidential Election MMXX Rebirth

(+) Yeah! (+)

it's our job to be perpetually unsatisfied or else people would settle for less even more than they already do

Paratroopa1 posted...

zzzz it's a fuckin speech

It's an annually important speech that gets a lot of press. I don't give a shit about it either but it IS noteworthy.

ivysnow posted...

it's our job to be perpetually unsatisfied or else people would settle for less even more than they already do

Nah at this point it's just the kind of enemy-of-good-because-not-perfect disatisfaction that is indistinguishable from bad faith arguments by GOP plants. I have no tolerance for it anymore.

I'm very happy with any public appearances that make Biden look good. He and Trump probably won't have any debates, so hopefully Biden's team keep him in a bubble and as shielded as possible from disastrous moments.

I'd be willing to settle for a combo of 1) not genocidal and 2) I get to live long enough to see 2030. Sorry if that's too picky for y'all

Biden looked good, Katie Britt looked and seemed unhinged.

AriaOfBolo posted...

I'd be willing to settle for a combo of 1) not genocidal and 2) I get to live long enough to see 2030. Sorry if that's too picky for y'all

1. You're not going to get a president that supports Palestine within the next 30 years. Disagreeing with what's happening is good. Making it a point of contention in your voting is ill-advised when the Republican alternative would do far worse than Biden's policies toward the situation.

2. Then I would recommend not sowing dissent within the party that doesn't want to murder trans people? I do not get the logic here.

Important update: my wife fell asleep with the speech on double speed

KamikazePotato posted...

the Republican alternative would do far worse

I think we're kinda out of room for anybody to do "far worse." Legitimately, what can he do that Biden and the Dems aren't doing?

KamikazePotato posted...

he party that doesn't want to murder trans people?

You say this like the Dems are trustworthy and dedicated allies. They aren't trying to kill us, but they're not doing a whole lot to stop the other guys, either. It can be worse on this front, but its already pretty shit, on their watch.

Biden gives you the chance to elect better candidates that will eventually lead you to where you want to go.

You arent ever getting that chance with the alternative.

I'd like to believe we'll get better candidates someday. I don't think I do. It's another in the category of, the other sides worse but how much are we gonna put up with?

AriaOfBolo posted...

I think we're kinda out of room for anybody to do "far worse." Legitimately, what can he do that Biden and the Dems aren't doing?

Send troops to Palestine, for one thing. I don't doubt for a second that Trump wouldn't do it if someone paid him to.

You say this like the Dems are trustworthy and dedicated allies. They aren't trying to kill us, but they're not doing a whole lot to stop the other guys, either. It can be worse on this front, but its already pretty shit, on their watch.

Okay. And? This isn't about whether or not Democrats are perfect allies. They don't need to be perfect, or even great, to be infinitely better than the alternative. That's the problem I have here. Every time that fact gets pointed out, the response is "Well yeah, but-" and there shouldn't be a but. The stakes are too high. This is a choice between slow recovery/progress and a hellscape. Everyone opposing Trump should be throwing almost full support against Not Trump, and they aren't.

Does that still leave some room for pointing out issue and problems? Sure. But leftist complaining has long since ascended from 'pointing out problems with the Democratic party' to 'virtually indistinguishable from a GOP plant making bad faith arguments'. I actually do a double-take on half your posts because I read them, look at the name, and have to remind myself that you probably aren't someone who secretly supports Trump.

Tonight is a microcosm of that. It is apparently impossible to just say: hey, I'm glad the speech was well-received because that helps re-election chances. You don't have to give a shit about it. I don't. I didn't watch it. I take it for what it is - good optics. We always need good optics. That's something the left generally doesn't understand.

AriaOfBolo posted...

the liberals are into it, the leftists refuse to be placated

I mean this with all due respect, regardless of your beliefs and who is giving it, if a SotU address is enough to placate you, you are not a serious person with any actual concerns.

AriaOfBolo posted...

It's another in the category of, the other sides worse but how much are we gonna put up with?

"The GOP Doesnt Want to Punish Trans PeopleIt Wants to Eradicate Them"
https://apnews.com/article/lgbtq-transgender-republicans-trump-christian-conservatives-election-83becc009d8123d96a75c2e4940ab339

If you want to purity test yourself into tacitly supporting that, I guess I can't stop you.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I mean this with all due respect, regardless of your beliefs and who is giving it, if a SotU address is enough to placate you, you are not a serious person with any actual concerns.

You know who watches stuff like the State of the Union? Older people - the largest voting block. It being a good speech is, in fact, a good thing. It moves the needle by just that little bit more. In close elections, that can mean the difference between victory and defeat. Especially when there's rhetoric floating around about Biden's inability to speak. This helps counter that.

KamikazePotato posted...

You know who watches stuff like the State of the Union? Older people - the largest voting block. It being a good speech is, in fact, a good thing. It moves the needle by just that little bit more. In close elections, that can mean the difference between victory and defeat. Especially when there's rhetoric floating around about Biden's inability to speak. This helps counter that.

That just proves my point, doesn't it? Old retirees who vote consistently are basically the least serious group with the lowest amount of problems. Even if Social Security gets gutted, for example, even the most hardcore psycho has said people getting their SS would continue to get it.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

That just proves my point, doesn't it? Old retirees who vote consistently are basically the least serious group with the lowest amount of problems. Even if Social Security gets gutted, for example, even the most hardcore psycho has said people getting their SS would continue to get it.

We're having two different conversations here. You're arguing about the credibility of voters swayed by a state of the union, which honestly, I don't care about. Even if you're right, it doesn't matter. Non-credible voters vote in significantly larger blocks than informed voters. I'm just glad for good optics.

KamikazePotato posted...

"The GOP Doesnt Want to Punish Trans PeopleIt Wants to Eradicate Them"
https://apnews.com/article/lgbtq-transgender-republicans-trump-christian-conservatives-election-83becc009d8123d96a75c2e4940ab339

If you want to purity test yourself into tacitly supporting that, I guess I can't stop you.

Do you really think I need to be told what half the country thinks of me

I'm responding to a post in this topic to the people in this topic.

I think the state of the union was fine. That said, I barely paid attention to it while I was playing videogames, so, priorities.

AriaOfBolo posted...

Do you really think I need to be told what half the country thinks of me

Based on how often you post about not wanting to vote for Democrats, and how it would be great if 3rd party was an option, and how hard it is to 'put up with' being on this side? You tell me. If I were in your position, voting against the GOP would be the easiest choice in the world, regardless of reservations about...almost anything, really. And even if I was extremely dissatisfied with what I consider to be a necessary evil, I certainly wouldn't be trying to convince other people not to vote Democrat.

Can you perhaps understand why I'm looking for a bit better than lip service in the face of that? Can you maybe grasp that I might be upset that they're generally just ... Letting them? People are dying and if you really need me to stop and stay trump bad for the millionth time in eight years then sure. Trump bad. But don't tell me to be thrilled about four more years of your slower, nicer descent into a hellscape. I'll root for Biden on election night. I might even hold my nose and vote for him, especially if my vote somehow was going to matter. But you don't get to tell me to like him and you damn sure don't get to call me a trump supporter.

i think it's cool how bullishly aggressive you're being for someone not falling in party lockstep

i vote straight ticket dem every election, vote in every primary, i do what i can when i can to keep republicans out of office. but somehow i'm indistinguishable for gop plants because i think more can be done. it fucking sucks and it's this shitheel attitude that makes liberals fucking insufferable to discuss anything with

AriaOfBolo posted...

But you don't get to tell me to like him

Of course.

and you damn sure don't get to call me a trump supporter...I might even hold my nose and vote for Biden

If you don't vote for Biden over Trump, then yeah, I do. Or at least someone not willing to actively oppose Trump. Personal feelings don't matter anywhere near as much as how a person votes. This topic constantly clowns on people who act horrified about Trump but end up not voting against him anyway - why should the leftist equivalent be considered any different?

AriaOfBolo posted...

slower, nicer descent into a hellscape.

The GOP is causing that descent. Like, if anything bad policy-wise ever happens in the US, 95% of the time it's because a Republican got elected somewhere. Democrats could be trying harder but I also think you severely underestimate how difficult it is to make progress in general. Destroying things is much easier than building them, and the GOP right now is hellbent on destroying basically everything for some reason.

Progressives are, as usual, going about everything backwards, looking for a shortcut. We need to learn to control the narrative, and that's something we've failed at miserably, and it's part of why we're where we are. Win the hearts and minds of the people first, THEN the politicians. You can't go after the politicians first, and demand to have your way first. It just doesn't work like that.

"But the people support a ceasefire!"

Yeah, they do. In general. At about the same level as Joe Biden does. Much like they also support universal healthcare until it comes time to talk about funding it.

Believe it or not, you have to win over people. Yes, even on genocide. You can't just shame them into it. And progressives haven't done enough to endear themselves to the more moderate democrats whose minds can be changed. And every time you say you're going to take your ball and go home, you push the democrats further to the right, rather than dragging them to the left. Because if they aren't getting your vote, they have to find someone else's vote they will get.

Progressives really need to learn how to play politics. Because I don't think many of them get it. When you take your ball and go home, you're telling women that it's okay to have their reproductive rights taken away. Letting Republicans win only enables them to do even worse shit. Because they know they can get away with it. We've let them get away with it for too long because we refuse to support the lesser of two evils. It's also why we have two evils. You have to starve off the worse of two evils to drag them into the modern day. There's some truly awful people in the United States who would get off on seeing dead Palestinian Children. You're not teaching anyone a lesson letting the worse evil win. Or at least not the lesson you want them to learn. You don't tolerate the greater evil to teach the lesser evil a lesson. Especially not when people will suffer even more, and particularly the people who are actually voting between said candidates.

You don't have to like voting for Joe Biden. I know I didn't. But I do it because the alternative is just so much worse. And I know that if I want to push people toward supporting a ceasfire and a two state solution, I need people who will actually listen, even if they don't change their mind. Because then it changes the conversation. With Donald Trump, there's no chance you're going to get him to change his mind. He's going to do what he wants, and nobody's going to stop him. There will be no adults in the room this time. You can't shame Republicans into not supporting destroying Gaza. Their DREAM is to have Israel take over, and usher in the end times. And Trump will never listen to Democrats. And the conversation will stall.

Sometimes you have to make the less bad choice. Otherwise, we end up with even worse choices. Because if you think Trump is bad, just wait until the right brings out whoever comes next. Think it can't get worse? Think again. I thought W. was as bad as it gets. Turns out, he's a lightweight.

ivysnow posted...

i vote straight ticket dem every election, vote in every primary, i do what i can when i can to keep republicans out of office.

Cool, that's what I care about, thanks for doing your part.

You can feel how you want but the statement 'how can it get far worse' is divorced from reality tbh. I have no love for the democratic establishment but the gop is full of hateful psychos.

For example on what happens when hateful psychos get power see Israel. Imagine the US's full military might with the type of government Israel has. We wouldn't be doing a bad job in getting an ally to stop being aggressive we would be committing the genocide ourselves.

But this is also a relatively safe space to scream into the void. My issue is health care reform so yeah that's painful.

I don't think this is an issue for progressives tbh. I know I am very progressive (us standards anyway) and I believe those things. But also the us political system has been basically traumatizing us for our entire life so I have empathy for people who are fed up

SirChris posted...

My issue is health care reform so yeah that's painful.

I do think the Democrats would be more likely to try and reform health care in a way that matters these days. They tried the meet-both-sides thing with Obamacare and have mentioned how pissed they were that the GOP was never satisfied with concessions. Maybe I'm wrong and they wouldn't do anything even with a supermajority, but yeah.

The main issue is votes. Nothing can be done without enough votes in the Senate and House.

KamikazePotato posted...

I do think the Democrats would be more likely to try and reform health care in a way that matters these days. They tried the meet-both-sides thing with Obamacare and have mentioned how pissed they were that the GOP was never satisfied with concessions. Maybe I'm wrong and they wouldn't do anything even with a supermajority, but yeah.

The main issue is votes. Nothing can be done without enough votes in the Senate and House.

They have sucked at trying tbh. Like. A complete failure. Their messaging sucks. It is horrific tbh.

But they are my only hope. Sad times lol

They suck at trying but there's at least one news article every week with the copy-paste headline of: "Democrats propose good change, Republicans shoot it down". Shit's like clockwork. There's no point in proposing a bill to reform health care right now when there's a 0% chance it would pass.

Agreed on awful messaging though. They should be laying the groundwork for it at least and they're doing a bad job of that.

KamikazePotato posted...

They suck at trying but there's at least one news article every week with the copy-paste headline of: "Democrats propose good change, Republicans shoot it down". Shit's like clockwork. There's no point in proposing a bill to reform health care right now when there's a 0% chance it would pass.

Agreed on awful messaging though. They should be laying the groundwork for it at least and they're doing a bad job of that.

The leopard ate my face party doing its usual thing lol

my (biggest) issue with the dems is that they seem dead set on giving up nearly as soon as they meet right-wing resistance on anything

ivysnow posted...

my (biggest) issue with the dems is that they seem dead set on giving up nearly as soon as they meet right-wing resistance on anything

Eh. One thing I will say is I disagree with this. For example Republicans hate student loan forgiveness but Biden has managed to keep getting people's loans forgiven in small chunks several times. It's been a good play

ivysnow posted...

my (biggest) issue with the dems is that they seem dead set on giving up nearly as soon as they meet right-wing resistance on anything

I think it depends. You can't Try Harder when it comes to votes. That's a resistance that is insurmountable until they win more elections. Unless you just ignore the laws like some GOP politicians have successfully done in certain places, but Democratic voters (and the media) probably wouldn't let Dem politicians get away with that.

Messaging, yes. I would very much like to see Democrats get angry about the GOPs' fuckery. They do it more often but not enough. They aren't as passionate about progress as the GOP is about dismantling the country...or even if they are passionate, they're clinging to notions of political politeness that no longer exist, so their passion doesn't come out.

Even with all that, there have been some good change that they've managed to push through in the past few years. Chris' student loan example is one.

Dems definitely aren't proactive enough. We should've codified Roe V Wade during Obama's administration. But part of the problem is that the Democratic party is a big tent, and we welcome people like Joe Manchin because nobody else stands a snowballs chance in hell at being a Democratic Senator from the state of West Virginia. I really can't explain Sinema, other than that she's a fraud on the level of George Santos.

Make things better for people, win elections. It should be simple. And it's why it's not. Because Republicans don't want to make people's lives better. They just want them to be better than someone else's, and they want to do it by making life worse for someone else. Then they take credit for the things we do! Even when they voted against it. And people are too stupid and think "This guy's in charge? I voted him in. Something good happened. I'm sure he's the reason it happened!"

KamikazePotato posted...

I certainly wouldn't be trying to convince other people not to vote Democrat.

man it's a good thing I have never done that, I haven't even convinced myself of that yet! I also like how you remember the two times I have expressed displeasure with the Dems, and not the active anti-trans stuff being advanced by the Republicans, which I talk about a lot more but get responded to a lot less.

Sarcasm (and, to the extent possible, anger) aside, my stance has been and continues to be that both third party and Biden are pretty crummy choices. I can't super fault anybody for choosing one or the other, but you'd better vote, and it'd better not be R. I don't know why that's not coming across, I've said both times that I might myself wind up voting Biden. We have covered that the Republicans are pretty pure evil. For about 9 years now. The horse is chunky salsa. I'm extremely frustrated that the best they're willing to give us as an alternative is a guy with softer versions of the same policies and more professional demeanor. I'm doubly frustrated that I can't express that frustration without being called a GOP psyop. Four years ago I shared your optimism, and your faith in the Dems, and your willingness to settle. I have, since then, seen a Biden administration. I've seen all the stuff he ran against happen anyway, without much effort to change it. It's better than the alternative. It's not nearly good enough. You're talking about "perfect as the enemy of good" but from where I'm standing, I'm begging this country to give me "halfway decent" and not seeing any signs of getting it. I'm trying to figure out how to flee the country and you're telling me to vote harder. I'm watching states get ticked off the list of "can I travel through here without getting shot or charged with sex crimes" and you're telling me (factually) "well it could be worse!" I'm watching my country gleefully chip in on ethnic cleansing and I'm told I'm not having a good enough attitude about it.

anyway I'll try to be a bit more pleasant in the future about the utter despair I feel about this country and the terror I feel about the next ten years, gotta send them positive thoughts and prayers to the NICE ethnic cleansing guy! he's gonna actually do something about fascism any day now

The saga of Manchin and Sinema was like a slow-cooked nightmare. Just constant updates of "we maybe have the votes but which way have the coin-flip assholes landed this week?"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-state-of-the-union-immigration-border-bill-marjorie-taylor-greene-laken-riley/

I looked up the context of the quote I heard before. It's cringy as hell and that specific quote is probably (hopefully) just him f***ing up, but I think he played it ok by actually responding to the heckling.

The ugly goofy ass Speaker Johnson frowning and shaking his head the whole time was so f***ing annoying and distracting. God that man just LOOKS insufferable.

AriaOfBolo posted...

man it's a good thing I have never done that, I haven't even convinced myself of that yet!

I have been accused of (and blocked for this thing they're making up in their heads) actually wanting and supporting Trump a dozen times.

Back when Right wing B8ers used to post in this topic series they would constantly call it a hivemind and complain (erroneously) that we all agreed completely, and I think some people got so trained by THAT to read dissent as "this person is a reactionary".

KamikazePotato posted...

Personal feelings don't matter anywhere near as much as how a person votes.

my vote doesn't mean shit. i do not live in a swing state. there are people you could make this argument against but I am not one of them. I will vote, but Biden's not gonna move left even if I scrunch up my face real good as I extend his lead in Illinois to 500,001. (and, no, De La Cruz is not going to win, either. hell, I could actually vote for Trump and it's not going to matter. I won't, since you seem unsure of that point. But my point is my vote is not actually going to matter more than my "feelings") There's a difference between "man this election sucks" and "I'm not voting and you shouldn't either." It seems lost on a lot of liberals.

KamikazePotato posted...

Or at least someone not willing to actively oppose Trump

who do you think I'm proposing as an alternative? this is not 2016 bolo who threw a vote to mcconnell, this is 2024 bolo who is only going to be considering third parties that are farther left. just because I'm outside of the Overton window doesn't mean I'm a fan of the guys on the far end of it.

KamikazePotato posted...

Like, if anything bad policy-wise ever happens in the US, 95% of the time it's because a Republican got elected somewhere.

like California? and NYC? and Chicago? and all the purple states? and Biden's foreign policy?

SirChris posted...

They have sucked at trying tbh. Like. A complete failure. Their messaging sucks. It is horrific tbh.

But they are my only hope. Sad times lol

as usual Chris has made my point, but better

AriaOfBolo posted...

both third party and Biden are pretty crummy choices. I can't super fault anybody for choosing one or the other, but you'd better vote

I do, and I think this is something we're just going to fundamentally disagree on. I don't consider third-party votes to be a valid option for anyone legitimately concerned with a potential Trump presidency. If everyone who 3rd-party protest-voted against Hillary Clinton just...voted for Clinton, Trump might have been dead in the water eight years ago. For this particular topic, what you consider just expressing displeasure against the Dems, is to me harmful rhetoric that some more neutral onlookers will be tempted to follow. Maybe not on B8 (although we already have 3rd-party voters here...), but in other places you have discussions.

AriaOfBolo posted...

I have, since then, seen a Biden administration. I've seen all the stuff he ran against happen anyway, without much effort to change it. It's better than the alternative. It's not nearly good enough. You're talking about "perfect as the enemy of good" but from where I'm standing, I'm begging this country to give me "halfway decent" and not seeing any signs of getting it.

And the biggest reason for this is because of the GOP. The GOP blocks progress. The GOP tears things down. None of that will change unless Democrats win more elections and get a supermajority. They could be doing much better, but you are partially conflating issues caused the enemy as being the Democrats' fault. Real question: what can actually be done in states where GOP votes outnumber left-wing voters 2 to 1? What can actually be done to affect national policy until Democrats have a decisive lead in the Senate and House? I don't think the answers to those questions are very satisfying.

AriaOfBolo posted...

anyway I'll try to be a bit more pleasant in the future about the utter despair I feel about this country and the terror I feel about the next ten years, gotta send them positive thoughts and prayers to the NICE ethnic cleansing guy! he's gonna actually do something about fascism any day now

I'm not trying to minimize your pain, but I still have to disagree with your (potential) voting patterns and the way you handle rhetoric. I consider those to be extremely important things - they're basically the only way that we, the little guy, can actively influence the outcome of elections. Besides donating to various causes.

Over the past few years I've just grown very tired with the way that the left handles optics and rhetoric as a whole. It feels like watching them constantly shoot themselves in the foot. I'm probably taking some of that frustration out on you, and for that I apologize.

AriaOfBolo posted...

my vote doesn't mean shit. i do not live in a swing state. there are people you could make this argument against but I am not one of them.

I mean...sure, I guess.

AriaOfBolo posted...

There's a difference between "man this election sucks" and "I'm not voting and you shouldn't either." It seems lost on a lot of liberals.

That's the thing. It IS lost on tons of liberals. That's why I push back when people say it, and why it's currently the most successful tactic that the GOPs uses to disincentive voters. Most of the people who listen to 'man this election sucks' and stop voting are the people who lean left.

AriaOfBolo posted...

like California? and NYC? and Chicago? and all the purple states? and Biden's foreign policy?

Foreign policy - I'm assuming your talking about Israel/Palestine, and yeah that's very bad but the entire government is in on that shitshow. That doesn't make it better but I'm also not going to allocate emotional bandwidth to something that can't possibly be changed.

For the other stuff you're going to have to be more specific. I'm sure you have stuff in mind but I don't know what exactly you're referring to just by naming states.

KamikazePotato posted...

Maybe not on B8 (although we already have 3rd-party voters here...), but in other places you have discussions.

b8 is probably the most centrist place I talk politics >_> I'm vaguely aware that there are somehow people out there for whom Biden/Trump (only two options, gun to your head) is not a settled issue, but I sure don't interact with many of em.

KamikazePotato posted...

Real question: what can actually be done in states where GOP votes outnumber left-wing voters 2 to 1?

Not much! I sure do wish Biden would do something about TX and FL, but I understand it's a bit more complicated than "do something about it." I will begrudgingly extend him some grace there. My issue comes in where the Dems DO have power, and are either refusing to use that power for good or actively using it for bad. I think our conflict boils down to you being much more okay with the status quo they represent than I am. They had their chance to show me they are the force that will stop Trump. I'm not even that convinced they WANT to.

KamikazePotato posted...

Over the past few years I've just grown very tired with the way that the left handles optics and rhetoric as a whole. It feels like watching them constantly shoot themselves in the foot.

Fair.

AriaOfBolo posted...

I think our conflict boils down to you being much more okay with the status quo they represent than I am. They had their chance to show me they are the force that will stop Trump. I'm not even that convinced they WANT to.

If the Dems take a supermajority and do the bare minimum with it despite supposedly learning their lesson from the Obama administration, I will freely admit I'm wrong (and get super depressed again wooo). I just also feel like there's a ton of near-insurmountable hurdles that don't get acknowledged. Media being one of the biggest ones. The Dems suck at messaging, but it would be easier if the vast majority of news outlets weren't right-leaning.

KamikazePotato posted...

Most of the people who listen to 'man this election sucks' and stop voting are the people who lean left.

Go yell at those guys then!

KamikazePotato posted...

the entire government is in on that s***show

that's....that's my point.

KamikazePotato posted...

For the other stuff you're going to have to be more specific.

Chicago and NYC are very big fans of the police, including, as I recall, in the middle of the George Floyd protests. NYC, specifically, just called in the national guard so they can have ARMED searched of "random" commuters on the subway. Lots of states are pushing anti-trans legislation through, not just the deep red ones. KOSA has Biden's backing, and a lot of the Dems in Congress. California has had a couple things, but the only one I can remember three hours after my bedtime is a local thing from a red area, so I'll temporarily retract that.

KamikazePotato posted...

I'm also not going to allocate emotional bandwidth to something that can't possibly be changed.

I find this difficult for genocide-level events. This is not intended as a value judgment, part of me thinks you're the smarter one on this point.

AriaOfBolo posted...

Chicago and NYC are very big fans of the police, including, as I recall, in the middle of the George Floyd protests. NYC, specifically, just called in the national guard so they can have ARMED searched of "random" commuters on the subway. Lots of states are pushing anti-trans legislation through, not just the deep red ones. KOSA has Biden's backing, and a lot of the Dems in Congress. California has had a couple things, but the only one I can remember three hours after my bedtime is a local thing from a red area, so I'll temporarily retract that.

Those are fair points, thank you for giving examples.

I find this difficult for genocide-level events. This is not intended as a value judgment, part of me thinks you're the smarter one on this point.

I meant that we can't do anything. Protesting genocide is objectively a good thing to do, but if the entire government is pretty much okay with it, I unfortunately don't think protests will make an actionable difference. Especially not during an election year when Dems are scared of putting off swing voters. The only way to fix that is just elect a bunch of people who aren't okay with it, and that will take...a while.

Maybe I'm just fatalistic about different things than you are!

Also I completely misread your last point, whoops. Maybe I need to sleep too.

KamikazePotato posted...

The only way to fix that is just elect a bunch of people who aren't okay with it, and that will take...a while.

and in the meantime, my (idealist) response is to get a little mad about that. I'm not sure what's "better" between that and your more pragmatic angle.

Anyway, I didn't actually watch it, but a friend texted me to ask if I saw him calling out "thousands of illegals killing people" and said people cross the border because they know it will be 6 years before they go to court? That sounds like Trump s***, someone tell me the context pls.

My amateur understanding is that the 6 years part is at least founded in truth? It's something like: if you enter the U.S. and claim that you're seeking asylum in the U.S., because staying in your home country would be dangerous for you, then by law the U.S. must give you a hearing in court to formally adjudicate your claim. And those courts have an enormous backlog. Trump got around that law by declaring a state of emergency (over COVID), but COVID is no longer an emergency, so it's up to Congress to actually change the law.

I'm pretty sure that both the House and Senate border proposals include revisions to the asylum laws, as well as more funding for the court systems that handle asylum cases. But the House bill made no attempt to be a compromise that Democrats would accept, so it was always doomed in the Senate. Meanwhile, the bipartisan Senate bill attracted the ire of Trump (it would be an election year win for someone that isn't him) so, not only is it presumably doomed in the House, it can't even get out of the Senate.

AriaOfBolo posted...

I'm not sure what's "better" between that and your more pragmatic angle.

which, to bring it full circle, is the conflict I have been trying to express every time this has come up. Do I stick to my principles and waste a vote on a third party? Or do I compromise those principles in the name of harm reduction? I'm idealistic enough that that's a hard choice for me, even though I know damn well Biden is the best option out of the two we're being given. It'd be easier if I saw a bigger gap between D and R, and I'm mad that there's not.

AriaOfBolo posted...

It'd be easier if I saw a bigger gap between D and R, and I'm mad that there's not.

Yeah I think that's something we can super agree on.