Current Events > Israel/Palestina War 12: Attacking the worlds biggest refugee camp

(+) Yeah! (+)

Latest numbers (Feb 9)

Gaza

• Killed: at least 27,947 people, including more than:
• 12,150 children
• 8,300 women
• Injured: more than 67,459, including at least:
• 8,663 children
• 6,327 women
• Missing: more than 7,000

Occupied West Bank

• Killed: at least 390 people, including more than:
• 102 children
• Injured: more than 4,450

Israel plans to attack Rafah, which got over 2 million refugees.
They claim to have a plan to evacuate civilians. Earlier evacuations have been Israel telling them to walk into zones that they have shelled.

Foppe posted...

They claim to have a plan to evacuate civilians

evacuate is word for end life :(.

gawd damnit.

Israel sniped a Palestina woman outside the Nasser Medical Complex in Khan Younis in the south of the Gaza Strip, then started shelling the building.

Israeli soldiers posting videos of injured detainees being humiliated.

BBC News - Israeli soldier videos from Gaza could breach international law, experts say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68249962

For reasonable conversation we should block flyeaglesfly

kingdrake2 posted...

evacuate is word for end life :(.

gawd damnit.

Evacuate to the afterlife

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68239320
Gaza residents surviving off animal feed and rice as food dwindles
People living in the isolated north of Gaza have told the BBC that children are going without food for days, as aid convoys are increasingly denied permits to enter. Some residents have resorted to grinding animal feed into flour to survive, but even stocks of those grains are now dwindling, they say.

fuck all the assholes doing this god damn it this is depressing to see how these people are being slowly killed like this

A spokesman for the Israeli military agency tasked with coordinating aid access in Gaza said in a briefing last month that there was "no starvation in Gaza. Period." The agency, Cogat, has repeatedly said it does not limit the amount of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza.

Rather than stinking up the board with a new topic

DnDer posted...

You don't have to put any trust in Hamas. They become as toothless and untenable as libertarians, with effectively no power in the new post-two-state structure.

They'll be as neutered as a Republican House. Let them caw all they want, but they won't have the mandate to succeed at their previous goals. So, even if they're "in power," they won't have any.

They don't even have the power to Project 2025 right now, and that's dependent on someone like them being in power. I don't think they have the capacity to set up the road blocks you predict once there's a free Gaza.

Then, you have a legitimate election as soon as possible, and watch them become even more vanishingly scarce.

I don't think you need to worry about hamas working in good faith because they don't even work anymore once you liberate the land from Israel. No Israel means no more Israeli backing, and no more Israeli backing means no more hamas, just for starters.

Their financial power disappears. Their soft power disappears. Their political reason for existing disappears.

I feel like you are completely missing the point.

You continue to talk about what will happen once Gaza is 100% free and I dont disagree if that were to happen Hamas would lose their support. We dont disagree with that at all.

Where we disagree and the point you seem to keep avoiding is that I dont see a roadmap for peace with Hamas still in place.

Ill make it simple.

I believe Hamas will sabotage any attempts for peace.

Thats not to say Netanyahu wont take advantage of even the smallest of scuffles to continue his campaign or even try and provoke Hamas.

He's part of the problem as well.

Tag

BBC News - Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

A six-year-old girl who went missing in Gaza City last month has been found dead, along with several of her relatives and two paramedics who tried to save her.
Hind Rajab was fleeing the city with her aunt, uncle and three cousins when the car they were travelling in appears to have come face to face with Israeli tanks, and come under fire.
Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.
Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

ai123 posted...

BBC News - Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

A six-year-old girl who went missing in Gaza City last month has been found dead, along with several of her relatives and two paramedics who tried to save her.
Hind Rajab was fleeing the city with her aunt, uncle and three cousins when the car they were travelling in appears to have come face to face with Israeli tanks, and come under fire.
Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.
Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

Don't you know BBC is pro-Hamas?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/middleeast/hind-rajab-death-israel-gaza-intl/index.html

Gotta cover your bases with these posts so people don't try to cover it up with distractions. Btw not a single word about this on r/worldnews, as if that sub has a bias.

Zoks posted...

Don't you know BBC is pro-Hamas?

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/middleeast/hind-rajab-death-israel-gaza-intl/index.html

Gotta cover your bases with these posts so people don't try to cover it up with distractions. Btw not a single word about this on r/worldnews, as if that sub has a bias.

Usually, the BBC is described as pro-Israel.

All of these war crimes the IDF are committing are absolutely intentional, and there is absolutely zero chance that anyone will ever be held accountable. Those facts will drive more and more people into Hamas, not away.

It also serves to drive people away from supporting Israel unconditionally, and as the older generation that has always done so dies off, younger people who have watched this ethnic cleansing as it happened will take their place. Israel will find itself weakened, isolated, and without allies. It will have no one to blame but itself.

ai123 posted...

Usually, the BBC is described as pro-Israel.

Oh you don't know it's dismissed as a pro-Hamas rag now by the Pro-Israeli supporters?

ai123 posted...

Usually, the BBC is described as pro-Israel.

you what how the fuck is it

savage end for the little 6 year old that's been missing for 12 days. her family are shot in the car by the IDF. her 15 year old cousin sounds like she is shot while on the phone to the emergency services telling them the car is being shot and there is a tank nearby. when they ring back the little 6 year old is left on her own surrounded by her dead relatives begging to be saved. it took 3 hours to get permission from the IDF to send an ambulance to get her. when it finally gets there the ambulance is bombed and the paramedics killed. absolute savagery. can't even imagine what that little kid went through before she was killed. seems kinder to just be bombed by an airstrike and crushed under the rubble of your own house than go through all that.

SHRlKE posted...

you what how the fuck is it

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/israel-palestine-bbc-news-coverage-bias-gaza-war/

Another key finding from these studies was that Israeli casualties were given proportionally more coverage than Palestinian ones, and the language used to describe Israeli deaths was markedly different. Words such as atrocity, murder, lynch-mob and barbarically killed were used by journalists to describe the deaths of Israeli soldiers, but not those of Palestinians.

ai123 posted...

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/israel-palestine-bbc-news-coverage-bias-gaza-war/

Another key finding from these studies was that Israeli casualties were given proportionally more coverage than Palestinian ones, and the language used to describe Israeli deaths was markedly different. Words such as atrocity, murder, lynch-mob and barbarically killed were used by journalists to describe the deaths of Israeli soldiers, but not those of Palestinians.

ai123 posted...

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/israel-palestine-bbc-news-coverage-bias-gaza-war/

Another key finding from these studies was that Israeli casualties were given proportionally more coverage than Palestinian ones, and the language used to describe Israeli deaths was markedly different. Words such as atrocity, murder, lynch-mob and barbarically killed were used by journalists to describe the deaths of Israeli soldiers, but not those of Palestinians.

Its weird. Apparently people view the BBC as both pro Hamas and pro Israel at the same time depending on who you ask.

Their refusal to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist group being a key factor in labelling it pro Hamas by some and the case where they were accusing Israel of bombing a specific hospital and it turned out they were wrong another example.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/oct/16/bbc-gets-1500-complaints-over-israel-hamas-coverage-split-50-50-on-each-side

You only have to look on CE as a microcosm for the current situation. Any form of support for Israel on specific points gets you labelled an Israeli Shill. Then you have other users who will call you a terrorist apologist / anti semite if you try and explain the underlying issues that lead to groups like Hamas taking gaining power.

There is blame to go all round here. No doubt Israel is basically committing genocide before ours eyes and its also true the October attacks were awful and a lot of innocent Israeli people were killed but unless you see the world in black and white you end up getting labelled by both sides as being a shill. Its annoying.

The silence and inaction by the world as a whole in the face of Israel's crimes is honestly stunning to me. I read these topics and rarely post and it's just... I can't make sense of it.

If only Hamas didn't attack Israel...

Vyrulisse posted...

The silence and inaction by the world as a whole in the face of Israel's crimes is honestly stunning to me. I read these topics and rarely post and it's just... I can't make sense of it.

Yeah definitely its basically a genocide at the moment. I defended Israels right to defend itself but what they are doing is going to far and deserves criticism.

Vyrulisse posted...

The silence and inaction by the world as a whole in the face of Israel's crimes is honestly stunning to me. I read these topics and rarely post and it's just... I can't make sense of it.

Would any other great power be acting all that differently to how Israel is acting if it suffered an attack similar to the one on October 7th? I'm talking about China, Russia, the US, even smaller powers like France or the UK.

This is why they aren't saying anything. They could see themselves in Israel's position. The issue isn't just that the attack happened its that Hamas claims to govern a territory that has two million people in it, and they are saying they will repeat the attack again and again. Any major power would invade at that point.

Ah yes, they can see themselves murdering thousands of innocent civilians too.
Truly a good excuse.

Atralis posted...

Would any other great power be acting all that differently to how Israel is acting if it suffered an attack similar to the one on October 7th? I'm talking about China, Russia, the US, even smaller powers like France or the UK.

This is why they aren't saying anything. They could see themselves in Israel's position.

While the West may react in a similar fashion if they were attacked none of them would destroy the region with zero plans on what to do afterwards.

Atralis posted...

Would any other great power be acting all that differently to how Israel is acting if it suffered an attack similar to the one on October 7th? I'm talking about China, Russia, the US, even smaller powers like France or the UK.

This is why they aren't saying anything. They could see themselves in Israel's position. The issue isn't just that the attack happened its that Hamas claims to govern a territory that has two million people in it, and they are saying they will repeat the attack again and again. Any major power would invade at that point.

I dont disagree completely but there are levels of retaliation. Israel (or anyone in the situation) shouldnt get carte blanche to do whatever you want because of the October attacks. Certainly not genocide.

I supported Israels right to defend herself back in October but I dont support this.

SHRlKE posted...

I dont disagree completely but there are levels of retaliation. Israel (or anyone in the situation) shouldnt get carte blanche to do whatever you want because of the October attacks. Certainly not genocide.

I supported Israels right to defend herself back in October but I dont support this.

The allied powers killed about 69,000 French people in bombing raids during WW2. We weren't trying to genocide the French. Urban warfare against an opponent willing to fight for every inch of ground is terrible.

Comparing modern conflicts to WWII.

It's almost as if they know they are being disingenuous

Atralis posted...

The allied powers killed about 69,000 French people in bombing raids during WW2. We weren't trying to genocide the French. Urban warfare against an opponent willing to fight for every inch of ground is terrible.

Sure and I dont disagree some people killed in October were collateral damage. What we disagree here is with the numbers. I certainly dont think 70% of the people who died in the October attacks were collateral and I doubt the 69,000 number you mentioned represented 70% of the French deaths of WW2.

Atralis posted...

The allied powers killed about 69,000 French people in bombing raids during WW2. We weren't trying to genocide the French. Urban warfare against an opponent willing to fight for every inch of ground is terrible.

Ok but why does the IDF need to have tanks shoot at obvious civilians, journalists and medics?

Zikten posted...

Ok but why does the IDF need to have tanks shoot at obvious civilians, journalists and medics?

Just for clarity before this derails this thread of debate was specifically talking about the attack by Hamas in October and alleged claim Israel not only killed their own civilians by accident... 70% of them were done on purpose. I think whatever your views on Israel that claim is outlandish and the use who made it got banned as a result.

Zikten posted...

Ok but why does the IDF need to have tanks shoot at obvious civilians, journalists and medics?

Its urban combat against an enemy that exclusively uses civilian model vehicles because that is all they have at their disposal.

Foppe posted...

Gaza
Killed: at least 27,947 people, including more than:
12,150 children
8,300 women
Injured: more than 67,459, including at least:
8,663 children
6,327 women
Missing: more than 7,000

Do we have numbers for Hamas members killed and wounded?

Atralis posted...

Its urban combat against an enemy that exclusively uses civilian model vehicles because that is all they have at their disposal.
Hamas makes no effort to mark their vehicles as military. They have uniforms that they use for parades but when the fighting starts they swap to civilian clothes to blend in.

Welp, better start murdering children, doctors, and well, pretty much everyone there just in case then.

emblem-man posted...

Do we have numbers for Hamas members killed and wounded?

Only the numbers Israel claim, which tend to vary anywhere from "all the adult men killed/injured" to "everyone killed/injured".

There's a few that Hamas themselves have confirmed on an individual basis, but I don't think there's any reliable stats.

emblem-man posted...

Do we have numbers for Hamas members killed and wounded?

According to Israel, everybody that are not females or children.

Zikten posted...

Ok but why does the IDF need to have tanks shoot at obvious civilians, journalists and medics?

In real terms, because the buildings Hamas is fighting from are all built of concrete. They have an effectively infinite supply of bunkers.

willythemailboy posted...

In real terms, because the buildings Hamas is fighting from are all built of concrete. They have an effectively infinite supply of bunkers.

Weve been over and over the logistics of this war. I think for the most part the two sides here on this board concern the degree to which the IDF can hide behind those logistics and identifying a specific breaking point regarding when it is clear that the civilian price is too high regardless of Israels goals. I think at some point, even if Israel showed with indisputable accuracy that they are doing everything they can (and we know they arent) to save as many civilians as possible on the Palestinian side, too many have died for its military goals to still be viable.

Its sucks too, because the way this conflict has played out, someone is getting screwed over. There is no part of this where anyone gets an absolute victory. Except if Hamas gets its ceasefire and holds on to its hostages. And even then, Im only talking the assholes in charge - not the boots on the ground.

willythemailboy posted...

In real terms, because the buildings Hamas is fighting from are all built of concrete. They have an effectively infinite supply of bunkers.

Pretty sure civilians, journalists and medics aren't made of concrete or usable as bunkers.

America: are ya winning, son?

It would be dishonest to pretend Hamas doesn't willingly use civilians and civilian vehicles and buildings to conduct their attacks and this war but the issue is that Israel does not care. They claim they are trying to target only Hamas targets in that urban warfare mess but ever since this began we have seen multiple instances in which they clearly do not care. They aren't trying to protect Palestinian civilians and there's so much proof of that out there to be seen.

That's just a surface level comment about it as well, the deeper you look into how the IDF has behaved and conducted themselves it just gets darker and darker. THAT is the issue at the base of it.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-armed-wing-says-israeli-strikes-gaza-have-killed-two-israeli-hostages-2024-02-11/

So what's the solution here? If they stopped fighting today. Won't that encourage hamas to continue their attacks on Isreal instead?

Scardude posted...

So what's the solution here? If they stopped fighting today. Won't that encourage hamas to continue their attacks on Isreal instead?

Go to where the actual Hamas leaders are hiding (hint: they aren't in Palestine!), kill them, and defund the countries that fund Hamas.

IDF is allegedly the best military in the world (behind the US of course! /s) and they should be able to do this easily if they actually wanted the war to end.

Scardude posted...

So what's the solution here?

There is no solution here. Not even Israel's genocidal military campaign is a solution.

Israel's only choice is between committing genocide to steal land or letting innocent people live. The attacks on Israel continue regardless of which is chosen because Hamas is just a proxy for more or less the entire Middle East that wants Israel gone. If Hamas were to disappear, another militant organization would take its place and the attacks would continue.

If they stopped fighting today. Won't that encourage hamas to continue their attacks on Isreal instead?

Hamas is a proxy. They don't need encouragement to continue attacking Israel because they literally only exist to attack Israel.

I mean, if Israel improved the relationships with Palestine and treated them as human beings, then less and less of them would have a reason to fight in the first place.

Foppe posted...

I mean, if Israel improved the relationships with Palestine and treated them as human beings, then less and less of them would have a reason to fight in the first place.

Israel is committing genocide to steal Palestinian land. They need to be stopped. It is incredibly ignorant and/or disingenuous to try to frame any of this as progress toward solving Israel's security concerns, though.

Hamas has been recruiting and hiring mercenaries across northern Africa and the Middle East for years. Their funding is also primarily external. Israel's actions in regards to Palestinians and/or a Palestinian state are simply not a major part of the equation.

Further, there's zero reason to believe that a Palestinian state would end up any better than Lebanon: harboring or simply being unable to stop terrorist organizations that launch attacks on Israel.

The argument that Israel should change their course of action to advance solving their national security issues will never be accepted because it is simply wrong.

SayHeyyShohei posted...

Go to where the actual Hamas leaders are hiding (hint: they aren't in Palestine!), kill them, and defund the countries that fund Hamas.

Defund the countries that fund Hamas... does that include Israel itself?

Atralis posted...

Its urban combat against an enemy that exclusively uses civilian model vehicles because that is all they have at their disposal.
Hamas makes no effort to mark their vehicles as military. They have uniforms that they use for parades but when the fighting starts they swap to civilian clothes to blend in.

Oh dang, you mean like those medic uniforms IDF soldiers have been using "to blend in?"

Which is a clearly specified and flagrant war crime?

DrizztLink posted...

Oh dang, you mean like those medic uniforms IDF soldiers have been using "to blend in?"

Which is a clearly specified and flagrant war crime?

Yeah but it's moral when israel does it because reasons!