Board 8 > Time for me to fumble through Zero Time Dilemma

(+) Yeah! (+)

The snail story is as follows:

A woman (Eric's mom) saw a snail on her daily run, and ended up taking a different path because of it. Mira was waiting on this path and killed her. Akane's father was arrested as the culprit and sentenced to the death penalty, and Akane's mother committed suicide due to grief. This caused the events of 999 and the rest of the trilogy to happen.

Akane's father at the time had called a taxi, but did not take it due to the arrest. Instead, the taxi driver picked up a surgeon heading to the hospital, and got into an accident killing both of them. The surgeon was to operate on a young boy named Sean, who the robot is based off of. Since the surgery never happened, Sean died instead.

Oh I didn't know Eric's mom was the one who died. I'd got the rest. So I guess you can connect Junpei to the snail through Akane's connection, and stretching it further to Team D... What about Carlos? And I don't get why Eric was brought in. He never even discovers that Mira killed his mother!

A couple other qs- in the 'inject rad-6 or not' scene in Team Q, I'm sure there were only 3 vials of the virus. Now Sean wouldn't need it but at that time none of them knew this, so what happened there? And in the very opening scene, is Q supposed to be 'trapped' with Mira, Eric, and Sean? If so, who is the Zero that appears? Is it just a Seanclone reading a pre-recorded message?

Losing interest at the end is fair because that's pretty much why most people are sort of lukewarm on ZTD!

Also a couple people alluded to it, but you can go back and plug "Delta" into the standoff scene, and Sean turns and shoots the camera. That's how I got the Delta reveal.

But yeah ZTD is extremely interesting up until the ending where the plot twist is very "twist for the sake of twisty" and then also doesn't pay off almost anything VLR set up (and that's not even getting into the secret after-ending scene in VLR they added and then did nothing with AT ALL in the international release).

It's a shame it ends so poorly!

Thanks for running the playthrough topic, I enjoyed reliving ZTD. Do you have a character ranking? If that's the kinda thing you like to do.

andylt posted...

Oh I didn't know Eric's mom was the one who died. I'd got the rest. So I guess you can connect Junpei to the snail through Akane's connection, and stretching it further to Team D... What about Carlos? And I don't get why Eric was brought in. He never even discovers that Mira killed his mother!

A couple other qs- in the 'inject rad-6 or not' scene in Team Q, I'm sure there were only 3 vials of the virus. Now Sean wouldn't need it but at that time none of them knew this, so what happened there? And in the very opening scene, is Q supposed to be 'trapped' with Mira, Eric, and Sean? If so, who is the Zero that appears? Is it just a Seanclone reading a pre-recorded message?

The choice to inject Radical-6 or not only had 3 vials of the virus because Delta/Q did not use the fingerprint authentication device that Sean, Mira, and Eric did during the puzzle, which is what the recorded message from Delta said infected them with the other virus. So Delta would not need the vial anyway.

It's probably Delta himself. Carlos seems to recognize him at the end of the opening scene before getting put to sleep.

Yeah, unfortunately, this is why ZTD has such a poor reaction. There is a point during ZTD at which the game's actually pretty good and makes you wonder why people dislike it so much! Its peaks are high but oh man, the ending is not good, and the whole thing never really gels. Team D's stuff is the highlight imo and I like the twist that Delta was always there on Team Q but other than that... yeah.

Now you get to watch the infamous meme, enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfOsjVT8mlU

Oh duh I forgot about the fingerprint thing.

Raka_Putra posted...

Do you have a character ranking? If that's the kinda thing you like to do.

10. Delta
+ The reveal is a successful WTF moment.
- A terrible character.

9. Mira
+ She's sensible sometimes. I like how unfazed she is when things are going to shit.
- She's a serial killer and the game is really weird with how seriously it doesn't treat this, she's not even an antagonist. She's remarkably irrelevant considering this big deal. Can be very cruel. Chops up Junpei and nobody even brings this up to her. Ridiculous design.

8. Junpei
+ I like that he's jaded and clearly scarred after what happened a year ago
- He's a huge asshole and really uncaring towards anyone that isn't Akane. He's still obsessed with her. He didn't need the new job this past year for his arc, I would've liked him better if he'd been colder to Akane because of her traumatising him but still caring for humanity and the other teams. J/A are a bad couple and I root for them to be far away from each other for their own benefits. Tenmyouji was the best incarnation of this character.

7. Akane
+ I like when she's treated appropriately for being her ruthless, calculating self. She can be smart.
- She's usually still framed as an innocent little girl. Despite her intelligence she's sometimes an idiot. Her only plot purpose being here is Junpei and they still don't treat each other well outside of occasional grand gestures. She's inconsistent with how much she cares about others.

6. Phi
+ She can be selfless and sensible. The incinerator scene is one of the highlights of the game.
- She can be selfish and senseless. The main problem is she doesn't do all that much, she's absent for many of D Team's scenes and her backstory isn't really about her. Telling us not to take the antidote is one of the most stupid decisions anyone has made across the trilogy.

5. Eric
+- Lmao what is the deal with him. He's the worst. Every time he starts to come around to being a good guy something happens that spins him back the other way. He flies off the deep end constantly, and has a tendency of killing Sean. And yet... he's had a deeply traumatic childhood, he's in love with a heartless serial killer who apparently murdered his own mother, he has no special powers and no inside knowledge but is thrown into this hellhole and his girlfriend is usually either murdered or murders him. He is the true underdog and should be very easy to empathise with... but he manages to be a magnificent asshole at every turn. The less invested I am in the game, the more I enjoy his presence. He keeps things moving at least, and he adores that shotgun. I would've liked them to give this guy a proper arc rather than... whatever we get here.

4.5 Gab
+ Love that the vents didn't lead anywhere and he just sits on a rug in there.
- Very slow walking animation.

4. Sean
+ Innocent sweetheart. Is the one who discovers Zero's identity, has a sad backstory.
- He gets over the robot thing pretty quickly. He should be the emotional centrepiece of the game but is kind of tossed aside in the last act. That robo head rolls on the ground one too many times.

3. Carlos
+ Just a good guy! Relatable third wheel to J/A. Believes in the power of friendship.
- The sister thing is a bit one-note. And he really has no connection to anyone or anything in here, how bizarre.

2. Diana
1. Sigma
+ Maybe the only fully executed character arcs in the game. They have the best scenes, the best dynamic, the best everything. I put Sigma higher as Diana is a bit of a repeat of Luna (still the GOAT), and Sigma's growth hits a bit harder knowing he's already been through her death.

Sigma > Diana >> Carlos > Sean >>> Gab > Eric > Phi >> Akane > Junpei > Mira > Brother Delta Q Zero

Complex motives and mind hacking are still some of my favorite memes.

Eric is my favorite character in the game, he sucks, but in a way that is awesome

OK if I look at it from a meme perspective maybe Delta was a good character all along! (Hearing the English VA is very strange)

foolm0r0n posted...

Could be a complex sort of motive

You shitter

andylt posted...

OK if I look at it from a meme perspective maybe Delta was a good character all along!

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/7342a399.jpg

Please send all ZTD memes

Also character rankings I'm curious what the consensus is on these folks

I have no idea on a full ranking but Sigma/Diana > Carlos > Phi >>> everyone else

I liked Junpei and Akane a lot in the other games but not really here.

Akane is kind of a terrible person and I don't like her much as a result because no one ever really calls her on it

Sigma is my favorite character in the series

I hate Junpei and Akane in this game, they just... suck in a way that's not even funny or cool, I just thoroughly dislike them whenever they're on screen and it's annoying because they weren't like this before

'An old man in a wheelchair was in the room the whole time just off screen' is such an amazingly stupid twist. I must have laughed for like five minutes after that reveal. I simply couldn't believe the audacity.

andylt posted...

Please send all ZTD memes

Shortly after release of ZTD was a fucking goldmine of memes. I might have some kicking around on an old hard drive somewhere

Carlos is honestly my favorite character in this game. He's such a himbo. But taking the entire series into account, I like Sigma a bit more.

Strictly ZTD rankings though:
Carlos > Sigma >>> Sean > Diana > Eric > Phi >>>>> Akane > Junpei > Delta > Mira

Diana > Sigma > Eric > Sean > Carlos > Phi > Delta > Mira > Akane > Junpei

From what I remember, anyway. No I'm not actually going to put Eric above Diana or Sigma but I KIND OF wanted to.

Diana > Sigma > Carlos > Phi > Akane > Sean > (Gab) > Eric > Junpei > Mira > Delta

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4ee0c695.jpg
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0f002206.jpg

Eric is my favourite character because he's HILARIOUS.

Well, now you're understanding more why people are down on the game. But your writeups did remind me that the game does have some good parts, I still may have been too harsh on it in my memories.

From what I recall, my biggest issue with not only the ending but a lot of the lategame stuff was, the stakes kind of dissapear once you realize the plot idea is, like, "we're going to create a timeline where people can be happy." "oh, and that replaces all the other ones?" "no, every timeline of suffering still exists, so an infinite number of people are still dying in despair even if we succeed" "oh"

I don't really remember what Delta's motives are, honestly I forgot Delta even existed, I didn't remember his name, just that he was some old man. Ending is the most forgetable part of the game, I zzz during long monologues of bullshit.

I don't think I've ever even conceived of the idea of doing character rankings for this game, it seems like sort of a pointless endeavour. Half of the characters are underused or just weird so I guess Diana and Sigma sort of win by default with a whole mess of "idk, who cares" below that.

I liked all the "bad" as well as the new characters in the game and it is fun to see such different characters that you never see in games or even other VNs. Even 999 and VLR had pretty standard characterizations, and the plot carried those stories. Here the plot does end up both over dramatic and under dramatic (after all the shifting) but it's interesting throughout to see such weird characters.

For everyone playing this game, it's by definition their 2nd or 3rd Uchikoshi game, so there's no chance they could make a plot that lands as hard as your 1st Uchikoshi game. So I liked that they went this risky directiong. It's very hit or miss but that's much better than the alternative.

Foolmo thinks going with bad writing is better than going with good writing you heard it here first folks

Pretty much, which is why I'm glad Uchikoshi still gets funding. There's a million cookie cutter light novels for all the "people will good taste"

Hm, how risky was this game's writing? There's the one twist and I guess the fragment structure, but it generally seemed like a weaker version of things we've already seen, only this time without a strong base tying everything together and pretty much abandoning a lot of the stuff that was set up last time around. I guess that's a risk, but I don't really praise it for that.

The new characters mostly don't have complete arcs, either, I dunno how unique I'd say their characterisations are even when I like them! Mira is a weird psycho killer, Carlos is Good Guy, Sean is an innocent boy, Diana is Luna, Delta has very little in his favour... There's Eric, but was he intended to be this ridiculous or did they simply run out of time writing an arc for him >_>

Gab is perfect.

Just a little guy.

My view on ZTD overall is still that it's "very entertaining", but it has a few things (Mostly around the ending) that drag it down from "good". I thought Delta was so over the top stupid that he was hilarious, especially with his (English) voice, for example. And given the memes, I'm clearly not alone in this.

Junpei and Akane are another example of this that you guys have kinda but not really touched on. They're not particularly well written, and Punished Junpei doesn't really make that much sense in the context of the rest of the series. But I was still entertained by that dynamic, even while acknowledging it wasn't good, or good for the plot.

I agree Akane and Junpei are not written well here, I like the idea of Junpei's growth but I don't think they went about it in the right way at all. And considering how central Akane is to the series it's weird she's an innocent little side character in this, she gets away with murder so many times across the trilogy and never even has to face pushback! I don't like the pairing, and C team's shenanigans were fun but pretty weightless.

A couple of nonsense things that came into my head- what was the point of the button in the Healing Room that blows up the facility? And in the ending where Delta gets everyone killed and calls Diana 'mom'... what happens after that? He can't shift, so what is the goal there, do they stand around and chat or what >_>

I have plenty more games to be getting on with, but while this topic is here I'll ask if anyone has recommendations for other games that scratch the Zero Escape itch? VNs or VN-likes with a twisty sci-fi bend, or simply games with cool stories. Ever17 has been mentioned already, and I've played the first AI so will probably play the second at some point. I'm not at all well versed in the genre though, I've played some Ace Attorneys but that might be it. I've heard wildly varying things about Danganronpa and I don't think I'm eager to play those.

andylt posted...

I've played the first AI so will probably play the second at some point.

The second game is a good choice.

https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/615863

^ This is a short little flash game that is heavily zero-escape-reminiscent.

I'd also recommend Gnosia, if you can handle the Mafia-themed gameplay. (It's not even that much like playing mafia, tbh, it's more like a puzzle game than an actual social deduction)

I can't remember if you've played Ghost Trick but that's a must-play if you haven't.

Not Zero-Escape-like but 428 Shibuya Scramble is great and has a sort of similar flowchart-y gameplay loop. VN only, no gameplay besides making choices.

Ever17 gets mentioned because it's the same writer (Albeit much older than Zero escape). Both it and AI are good choices (Especially since you already played AI 1)

Danganronpa is the usual recommendation here because the writer is friends with Uchikoshi and it still generally fills the "murder mystery" sort of vibe, but it's quite different and way more anime trope-y. I would say to give it a shot if you really want more to scratch the same sort of itch ZE does, but you don't need to rush at it if you're already not feeling it.

I will, a full decade later, decide to recommend Umineko a bit. It's got hella flaws, but if you get into it it's pretty fun. It's a straight sound/visual novel though, with no direct gameplay or choices.

Ace Attorney is also beloved by Board 8 as a whole for very good reasons, too, so you won't really go wrong by playing more of it.

I'll mark that flash game for another time, ty!

Whoops I forgot about Ghost Trick, I have played and enjoyed that (Missile best dog, sorry Gab). I've heard of Gnosia but know little about it, I've never played Mafia but that sounds intriguing. And I know of Umineko too but only from the music contests on this board. Great Ace Attorney is on my current backlog, I'll definitely be getting around to that.

I would recommend Danganronpa. There's a lot to say about them, both very good and VERY bad. They're a clusterfuck. They are, at times, both some of the best and some of the worst games I've ever played in my life. Avoiding finding out why would not be doing yourself a favor, in my opinion.

Ghost Trick is a must play. Play Ghost Trick.

Play Ghost Trick.

andylt posted...

Whoops I forgot about Ghost Trick, I have played and enjoyed that

Play Ghost Trick again

Yeah Umineko is basically THE recommendation. It's not perfect but few stories affected my worldview in the way it has and it basically defined a portion of my life.

Higurashi as well, from the same author as Umineko.

Also I personally recommend and heavily enjoyed Danganronpa more so than Zero Escape and AI (though I liked those too).

Higurashi and Umineko are the way to go

Avoid Danganronpa at all costs. It is absolute garbage in basically every minute of its 40+ hour playtime. Everyone will say 2 is better but it barely is. It's saying a 0.005/10 is better than a 0.001/10. I assume the following games are also terrible but after 80 hours in that series I fortunately found a way to escape.

no, V3 is genuinely good. you stopped just before the good part!

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/f/f48171d9.jpg

I like Ace Attorney and Zero Escape, but didn't like Danganronpa (only played the first game). I'd actually say Danganronpa has the best gameplay of the three of those, but I didn't really like the characters, tone, or dialogue in it, and that matters a lot in games like these.

I enjoyed ZTD when I played it, but reading some of your posts here, some of these scenes sound like they come from games I wouldn't normally enjoy. I suppose I found the rest of ZTD interesting enough apart from some of those scenes to overcome that, though.

Danganronpa 1 is fine but not anything amazing, 2 is great and V3 is incredible - can very much recommend the franchise if you want something in the general proximity. I'd caution that you really need to be okay with anime tropes but honestly if VLR didn't vex you then you're probably fine.

I'm not even going to bother putting up the warnings about Danganronpa, you should just like... make an attempt at it anyway, I don't care

Danganronpa is pretty entertaining.

But yeah I'd also throw a recommendation for Umineko.

Just play all of the B8 darling VNs

Fiop posted...

I'd actually say Danganronpa has the best gameplay of the three of those

People massive underrate how god awful the gameplay is in the series. I would easily call it the #1 worst game design in any published game, and this includes unfinished messes like Superman 64. There's probably worse games overall, but anything gameplay related here is just unconscionable. The top designers in the world couldn't create something this brilliantly shit even at gunpoint.

Dels posted...

no, V3 is genuinely good. you stopped just before the good part

^ They will keep doing this too, forever. 1 and 2 were apparently shit all along, but 3 is it. Never mind that they were saying all the same things before 2 was even released.

They fact is, they like the game. They liked it since 1. They like the anime tropes. They thought 11037 was genuinely clever and interesting. If you don't, then there's no chance you'll like the series, so just stop.

Good thing that they improved the gameplay with Improved Hangman Gambit, love to see it.

If GAA is in your backlog, I would prioritize that over other VNs.

Raka_Putra posted...

Good thing that they improved the gameplay with Improved Hangman Gambit, love to see it.

It's the only actually decent mini game they have made and of course 100% of the fanbase hates it