Board 8 > MCU General 15 - Loki S2, The Marvels, Echo

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah that absolutely ruled

It reminded me of like, the anti-Dr Strange What If Episode. A former villain heroically travelling through time for centuries to learn a tremendous amount and ultimately being sacrificing his own happiness to save everything

While Strange was a former hero selfishly travelling through time for centuries to learn a tremendous amount and destroying everything for his own happiness

I loved it! Up there with Wandavision as the best MCU series, and two good MCU things in less than 48 hours.

Also I deleted that post by accident when trying to spoiler tag it and then learned you can undo typing by swiping two fingers across the keyboard (on Samsung phones anyway).

Felt like some kind of god.

Extensive reshoots for Cap, eh?

I wonder why they would need reshoots for the movie with Captain Israel in it....

Also boy are these box office numbers for The Marvels.....not good. Looks like it's going to do much worse than The Flash which I didn't think was possible. Currently tracking to be the worst MCU opening ever, busting The Incredible Hulk's record.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

I wonder why they would need reshoots for the movie with Captain Israel in it....

Wait what's this referencing?

Waluigi1 posted...

Wait what's this referencing?

The Israeli superhero Sabra is making her MCU debut in Cap 4.

Waluigi1 posted...

Wait what's this referencing?

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/277400e7.jpg

*edit* now knowing Cap 4 is also a backdoor Hulk movie, Sabra's involvement is uh interesting

Saw The Marvels last night and it was actually pretty good. It was charming and had heart and didn't try to be too much.

All I want from The Marvels is to finally do Captain Marvel well and give her a personality. Every time they try to launch her into prominence in every media, including the comics, they so often screw her up.

It's crazy how much more beloved Carol Danvers would have been in the MCU if they did her right.

I could kind of see it in the first movie because of the whole AI brainwashing thing. I could see that resulting in a kinda wooden personality. The problem is that even in the flashbacks she wasn't that different

And she's not like magically charismatic in this one, but she's better. Meanwhile Kamala is actually just a delight from start to finish. Monica falls somewhere in the middle I guess

mnk posted...

The Israeli superhero Sabra is making her MCU debut in Cap 4.

Oohh ok never heard of her. I thought this was referencing an actor saying stuff about the conflict or something

Waluigi1 posted...

Oohh ok never heard of her. I thought this was referencing an actor saying stuff about the conflict or something

Oh that'll probably happen too if it hasn't already.

The Marvels was fun. Nothing amazing. Felt a bit rushed and like it didn't quite explain everything.

Kamala is definitely the best part in terms of characters. I agree with what someone alluded to earlier, that she could have been annoying but managed to be very endearing instead.

And now for some spoiler-y things:

• So, the family just ups and moves from Jersey City to Louisiana?
• The singing world!
• Seems like letting a bunch of tentacle cats loose in NYC is going to have to be revisited at some point.
• Where did the other bangle go, since Kamala only had one at the end? I also thought her powers came from the bangle but apparently I was wrong about that, as she was able to use her powers even after she lost the bangle during the final fight.
• It's funny, after the post about "big mid-credit spoilers", I was going to say something about "maybe they run into the Shi'ar Empire" since it's a space movie. But that would have been too obscure for most people to recognize Lilandra or someone like that. Turns out, was X-Men related! Apparently that was OG X-Men movie Beast, and someone called Binary (unknown to my limited comic knowledge).

getting tickets for tomorrow, looking forward to it!

in my head I keep thinking of it as the Ms. Marvel movie lol

Updated show ranking:

1. WandaVision
2. Hawkeye
3. Loki S2
4. What If...?
5. She-Hulk
6. Moon Knight
7. Loki S1
8. Falcon and the Winter Soldier
9. Secret Invasion
10. Ms. Marvel

1-3 are great, 4-7 are inconsistent with great highs and bad lows, 8-10 were bad

Not sure if Werewolf By Night should be included with these but that would definitely be in the great tier somewhere

Loki S2
Hawkeye
She-Hulk
Moon Knight
WandaVision - Falcon (tie, WV has higher highs but lower lows, Falcon's a consistent "alright")
Loki S1
Secret Invasion - Ms. Marvel (tie - Ms. Marvel dropped the ball hardest stuffing two seasons in 6 episodes with the pure garbage Clandestines plot, BUT I truly loved the first two eps, Kamala Khan, and the whole Jersey crew. I don't hate Secret Invasion, it's just real basic)

I don't really know how to rank What If, it's kind of all over the place as an anthology series but the Strange episode was my previous favourite MCU episode before this Loki finale

Good:
Loki S2
Hawkeye
Wandavision

OK:
Loki S1
What If?
She-Hulk
Ms. Marvel

Not good:
Moon Knight
Falcon

Dumpster fire:
Secret Invasion

The only show I'd say was outright not good was Ms. Marvel

Which was a shame because the vibes of the first episode were so great but then it got bogged down in two really bad villain ensembles

actually lemme do this too

Highlight Episodes: Loki s2 finale, What If Strange, Moon Knight Asylum, Hawkeye tracksuit mafia escape, She-Devil, what is love if not grief persevering
Lowlight Episodes: Lamentis, What If Peggy (did everything cap did), Brad, Moon Knight 3 (enter egypt, boring ep, and then oof Harrow's Trial was stupid)

honourable moment: US Agent Beheading (I forget most the episode but the scene itself was shocking)
dishonourable moment: Ralph Bohner (petty but i'm not getting over this ffff)

best finale: Loki 2 duh
worst finale: Falcon (do better, Morgenthau unearned sympathy, lmfao Power Broker reveal who cares)

I'm of the opinion falcon/ws would have been a lot better had they just had the balls to keep the original virus storyline.

i don't know if it's a hot take because they're both bad: Flag Smashers > Clandestines

although honourable mention of bad baddies, Hayward was a cartoon character government baddie in WV

FFDragon posted...

I'm of the opinion falcon/ws would have been a lot better had they just had the balls to keep the original virus storyline.

FWIW theyve repeatedly denied that that was a thing

Just watched the Loki finale, that was terrific and absolutely the best episode of one of these shows. Benson & Moorheads direction really pushed this season to another level, they have a great eye and actually make the MCU look interesting. That last Renslayer scene was very reminiscent of their other work. I hope they continue to do their own stuff (and get more eyes on them!) but they were an absolutely terrific get.

I also think the way this season was structured was genius - a common criticism of the first half was that Loki was very much in the background then the last two episodes bring it back and show it was his journey all along. Worked almost like a magic trick.

Notable also that this was the first MCU project ever with zero reshoots - everything was shot as written. Now reshoots arent inherently bad but there is probably something to be said for sticking by your original vision and not mucking things around posthoc.

JonThePenguin posted...

FWIW theyve repeatedly denied that that was a thing

I mean, a book just came out last month that confirmed it.

Loki S2
WandaVision
Hawkeye
Werewolf By Night
Loki S1
She-Hulk
Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Ms. Marvel
Moon Knight
Secret Invasion

Still need time to ruminate on the exact placement of Loki season 2 but right now thinking:

Loki S2
WandaVision
Loki S1
She-Hulk
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
What If?
Ms. Marvel
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Secret Invasion

But there is a huge gap between those last two. FatWS is flawed but enjoyable and felt like essential viewing while Secret Invasion is garbo and felt like a huge waste of time.

Best episodes (show by show):

WandaVision - Ep 8 (flashbacks)
FatWS - Ep 4 (beheading), though 5 (Isaiah Bradley) is close.
Loki S1 - Ep 5 (void)
What If? - Ep 4 (Strange)
Hawkeye - Ep 3 (car chase and bonding)
Moon Knight - Ep 5 (memories)
Ms. Marvel - Ep 1 (intro)
She-Hulk - Ep 8 (Daredevil)
Secret Invasion - Ep 4 (car attack, even though it also doomed the show)
Loki S2 - Ep 6 (finale)

Loki finale was fantastic. Those last two episodes were so good.

I also just got back from watching The Marvels. The movie itself was ok but the mid-credits scene was some next level hype.

I can only echo the praise for Loki Season Two. I just binged the whole thing. It's truly the one project that showcases the potential and achieves the promise of Phase 4. Season One had some really good moments that put it up there, but Season Two took it to another level.

It was basically timey-wimey nonsense, but as a big Doctor Who fan I was totally bought in. In many ways it does Who better than most actual Who episodes.

Last ep spoilers: I have no idea what happened. Seems like pretty out there power creep but maybe I'm just stupid? It works thematically but it also feels like a big ass pull. I still like it but it also feels kind of lazy. Would've preferred he kill HWR and replace him with Timely, which is predictable maybe but makes slightly more sense

I just saw The Marvels and I thought it was awesome lol, kinda sad that this one's getting bad reviews and being met with apathy because this might be the first post-endgame movie that really deserves better than middling ratings imo (to be clear, not including the ones that actually did get good reviews)

I havent seen it yet but the reviews arent even bad really. Its fresh on RT as of this writing. Some critics hate it, but many others love it and more say its alright. Disney totally messed up the embargo timing and made the reaction look worse than it actually was.

LightningStrikes posted...

Its fresh on RT as of this writing.

Yeeeeah, it's a 62%, let's not pretend that's a glowing endorsement.

True but also, its better than two other MCU entries this year! Tbh I have a suspicion that MCU movies are getting harsher grades than they were in years past more generally. I have a hard time imagining Thor The Dark World getting mostly positive reviews today. I would still only put Quantumania below it since then I think.

Can I just say that I didn't find Loki s2 all that? The finale was sure effective, but the fact that the other episode I really liked was the one centered around Victor Timely shows that those complicated time mechanics aren't as enthralling as character-centric writing. At least it surpassed the low bar of Secret Invasion for best season of the year, no matter if I preferred season 1.

And The Marvels was a fun one, even if I laughed at how the villain's plot reminded me a lot of Spaceballs. Won't win those going in wanting to hate the movie. Otherwise the main trio worked well and nothing was underwhelming, and the brief appearances of Valkyrie, Kate Bishop and that mid-credits scene were good reminders of the MCU at large!

Paratroopa1 posted...

Yeeeeah, it's a 62%, let's not pretend that's a glowing endorsement.

I also don't think we need to pretend anyone is saying The Marvels is recieving glowing endorsements

discourse on Marvels is *very much* more on the vultures circling the MCU corpse side

CelesMyUserName posted...

I also don't think we need to pretend anyone is saying The Marvels is recieving glowing endorsements

I wasn't! I was just saying that I think 62% is a pretty bad review score.

I don't think I've seen a more polarizing MCU project. For every review I watch/read that says ugh that singing planet was the worst thing the MCU was ever done and I wanted to actually kill myself to make it stop I will read a review that says the singing planet was one of the most fun things ever in the MCU!!! what a breath of fresh air and a highlight of the movie!!!!

(marvels) the musical scene was fucking hilarious and didn't overstay its welcome

Would I be missing anything important at all if I see The Marvels without watching Secret Invasion?

I feel like movies have *always* avoided the stupidity of gamers treating 8/10 as the baseline, I wouldnt at all consider 60% "bad". I wouldn't call it a "good" score either but good and bad are not one binary switch.

I mean, it's RT, so it's a percentage of people who gave a good or bad review - and I personally thought this was WAY better than Shang Chi and that hovered around like 90% I think? I mean, it's just my opinion of course, but 60% on RT is just really not-great

The disparity between RT and Metacritic is why I put little faith in either if these sites.

Movies with higher Metacritic scores can end up with lower fresh scores than movies with lower metacritic scores, and vice versa.

A movie can have pure 7s across the board and be 100% fresh, and movie with 99 100s and 1 40 ends up with a lower tomato score.

redrocket posted...

Would I be missing anything important at all if I see The Marvels without watching Secret Invasion?

No, I don't think so.

ZenOfThunder posted...

I don't think I've seen a more polarizing MCU project. For every review I watch/read that says ugh that singing planet was the worst thing the MCU was ever done and I wanted to actually kill myself to make it stop I will read a review that says the singing planet was one of the most fun things ever in the MCU!!! what a breath of fresh air and a highlight of the movie!!!!

If I'm remembering right, didn't Captain Marvel get review bombed because "Brie Larson"? I have to imagine the same type of shit would happen again somewhat.

So, thing I learned before the movie from the Alamo Drafthouse pre-movie stuff was that Brie Larson was a pop singer early in her career. Seemed like a rather bizarre thing to bring up until Singing Planet happened.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I mean, it's RT, so it's a percentage of people who gave a good or bad review - and I personally thought this was WAY better than Shang Chi and that hovered around like 90% I think? I mean, it's just my opinion of course, but 60% on RT is just really not-great

Interesting. I loved Shang Chi and this was good, but imo Shang Chi is one of the best since end game. Maybe second for me behind Guardians 3?

"not-great" yeah sure I wouldn't argue that. but I still wouldn't describe it as bad. Rotten Tomatoes is actually really good with its fresh line at 60, going below that mark failing to get a fresh is where I do start questioning the movie's quality - and sometimes it's still perfectly enjoyable, sometimes I see why it's rotten, sometimes it's enjoyable AND I see why it's rotten. For context yeah that includes The Marvels, so barely clinging to that 60 means exactly that, barely given the okay it could be fine.

I think a lot of people are kinda screwed up on Marvel because it has always had really undue high ratings on hype that has truthfully now evaporated. People are more honest about the MCU today because, well, the MCU has literally been Ivan Vanko'd.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5c2117ca.jpg

A lot of mid shit in the past wouldn't fly now and honestly I'm glad to come back down to reality. I don't wanna see garbage like Thor 2, Ant-Man 2, Black Widow clearing fresh no questions asked (bruh AM2 is 87).

Maybe I might be distorted as a horror fan but I'm pretty used to being fine in the 60s. The original Saw has always been held in great regard and it's sitting at 50 lol. Of course Saw X with hype behind it just landed at 80 despite truthfully failing to stick the landing, but hey it's Kramer! Hype is infectious. The rest of the series probably hovers in the 20s, in some regards fair enough the Saw series is a mess, but then you get the worst trash in the series with Spiral inexplicably high-30s instead of single-digits where it belongs.

Notoriously comedies have also done shit by reviews as well. Legitimately my fav and a much-loved classic in Clue is only 70. Not rotten, but by your measure certainly mediocre. And I don't even have a problem with it scoring that to be honest! I'm just pointing out the rt score =/= quality, by the very nature of the system.

Yeah, I mean that's basically what I think it is. Marvel fatigue, or I guess a lack of Marvel of hype. It's just kind of a bummer - this is the third post-Endgame movie (besides NWH and GotG3) that I really enjoyed. It's got a couple problems but if all the phase 4 movies were like this I'd be pretty happy. Feels like a segment of people are just kinda conditioned to shrug at this movie when it would have gotten great ratings back when the first Captain Marvel came out.

(Also god it's somehow impossible to discuss Captain Marvel without sounding like LMS)

So I decided to watch Captain Marvel again ahead of seeing The Marvels tomorrow. Wanted to talk about it a bit after revisiting it. I'll have Secret Invasion spoilers here too, so don't read the rest of this if you don't want to see them.

Overall, I don't think it was very good. It was fine, but not much more. It felt extremely lacking for many reasons, and should have been a lot better.

I know we all acknowledge the way overboard complaints about Brie Larson by very lame individuals, but man. She is just really bad in this movie and I don't get it. Just completely wooden without any emotions conveyed in any scenes that require them. No comedic chops at all. I hate to rag on her because she's had enough of it, but she's really just not good at all in this film and probably shouldn't have had the role.

The dialogue in this movie doesn't really serve her either. There's some good stuff in there, but there's a lot that's just not funny or it's awkward or it just feels a bit bland and could have used a little spice to make it more interesting. I mentioned earlier I didn't think that Captain Marvel had her personality from the comics, and I'd say that isn't entirely true. Her overall personality isn't there, but there's some parts that are pretty definitively her, but it doesn't really come across as her because Brie Larson just feels so uncomfortable in this role that it doesn't really feel like how I'd imagine a confident Captain Marvel would deliver them. But for the most part, yeah. A lot of this just doesn't feel like the Captain Marvel I love from the comics.

I think the overall story works, to a point. But I think there's a lot better of a story here that they could have told. Having Captain Marvel actually have a threat to face instead of just running around doing spy stuff for most of the movie before doing a surprise super strong curb stomping of everyone, especially with a super Kree team there who could have and should have probably given her a challenge, it all falls flat. Yon-Rogg's final stand is even a punchline too. It's just not very interesting.

I think it's intriguing on a re-watch post-Secret Invasion. Because I had so many questions. Like where did the funny little goblin Skrulls go? What about the giant ones? They're all just regular ass Skrulls in that series, unless I missed something.

Captain Marvel declares that she's going to find the Skrulls a permanent home. After two decades, she doesn't, and the burden was sort of passed on Nick Fury instead. lol

I think making Skrulls good guys was just... pointless, in the end? Like Secret Invasion fucking sucked, we all know that. And the story they told there was just so removed and irrelevant to the rest of the MCU. Skrulls are more interesting as villains, honestly. And it's disappointing we didn't get them or a proper Skrull Invasion. I won't rant about Secret Invasion, I need to stop myself.

It's so weird they just ditched Talos so early in Secret Invasion. He's clearly the most interesting part of this whole Skrull thing and was a highlight of this film. Like he's just charming as hell.

And the reveal of why Nick Fury lost his eye still sucks too.

Those are my Captain Marvel thoughts. From what I'm hearing, some of my complaints about the character and acting are fixed, so I'm looking forward to it more.

I'm kinda shocked how much people enjoy season 2 Loki over season 1, I thought season 1 was significantly better and season 2 is mostly filler until the last 2 episodes.

The Marvels was really good, it's a bummer this is going to be such a financial flop because it doesn't really deserve it.

And yeah Loki season 2 really dropped the Loki/Sylvie dynamic I think which was my favorite part of season 1.

Season 1 feels like so many things happened and basically nothing happening in Season 2. I wouldn't say the first 4 episodes are filler but the first 2 definitely felt that way as I was watching them.