Board 8 > MCU General 10 - I Am Groot

(+) Yeah! (+)

So - how does this jive with how WandaVision left her? The Wanda that let her two actual children and the love of her life fade away so that a town of random people can move on with their lives. Would that Wanda have done ANY of this? HELL NO. That Wanda would be fighting tooth and nail against this Wanda. It's a completely different person.

book make her bad

it bad book

wandavision ends with wanda giving up her torture town because reality came crashing down hard on her, with Vision pressuring her to stop

the show ends with her feeling like the real victim because all the people she tortured are rightfully mad at her for violating their will, Wanda doesn't actually show remorse for what she's done but rather immediate annoyance to be called out for her shit

end-of-WV Wanda is not a good person

Yeah, Wanda expresses anguish but no real remorse at the end of WandaVision

Plus the post-credit scene of WandaVision was her using the Darkhold to try to find her children.

Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, Wanda expresses anguish but no real remorse at the end of WandaVision

why would she show remorse

They'll never know what she sacrificed for them :(

Wanda was certainly not reformed or anything at the end of WV, but she also wasn't as blatantly corrupted evil as she was in MoM. If anything, she was a complicated character trying to deal with her trauma rather than someone who had given herself up to it. The main thing here is that Wanda in MoM isn't complicated. She's basically magician can't handle emotions/ her powers are too great/ she goes evil cliche.

She sacrificed nothing for them - those children never existed.

I agree that she's not really appearing to show remorse in the scene where they'll never know what she sacrificed for them :) but I don't agree that means she didn't have remorse. Her actions already clearly showed that she did.

To say she's not reformed - I'd agree in the sense that she has a lot to do to make up for this and has to show she's clearly intentionally making good choices in the future - but it's pretty unquestionable to me that she's chosen the path of redemption.

Reading the book isn't really a sign towards villainy - the show portrays the Darkhold more as her birthright and something she has a lot to learn from rather than just corrupting evil. Agatha probably would have used it for bad but that doesn't mean it had to be.

but then again it bad book

Bad book is probably there to signify she isn't necessarily choosing the path of redemption and the end of the show isn't as clean as it may appear

scarletspeed7 posted...

She sacrificed nothing for them - those children never existed.

was that Vision never real either?

CoolCly posted...

was that Vision never real either?

Well I mean he IS artificial

I will say the way the film very quickly and unfairly makes Wanda evil is extremely faithful to the comics, so there's that

Its not very quickly when you consider its following up on WandaVision. Nearly everyone in that town wanted to escape so badly theyd have taken the sweet release of death if they could

Just watched ep2 of She Hulk and loving it so far. Tatiana is great, Tim Roth is great, and most importantly the tone and pacing are more consistent than any MCU show since Hawkeye

The little bit of 4th wall breaking is done so well. Much less than someone like Deadpool, more like Malcolm in the Middle (Hulk saying he was an entire different person and Tatiana turning to the camera, saying "ha", and then casually going back to the conversation made me laugh out loud)

Yeah I forgot to mention that this episode made me remember how much I enjoyed Tim Roth in TIH. Not a great film but he was probably the highlight.

I laughed at the show's direct admission that there was an obvious Silence of the Lambs vibe to that scene. That should have been a joke that came off as too corny and self-aware but they somehow made it come across as a natural thought that Jen would have and voice aloud at about the same time the viewer would and it just worked somehow. I dunno how the show is so successfully walking this very thin line of not having its self-aware humor be too stupid.

I don't see how Wanda's characterization was wrong (aside from that shitty line at the end of WandaVision). She was always heading deeper and deeper into her own madness and desperation to have any kind of semblance of belonging or for anyone to truly care about her.

She lost her parents, then lost her brother, was outcasted from being a beloved hero and hated by everyone, then lost her lover, and she was desperate to give herself any sort of happiness.

So after being woefully alone after Avengers Endgame, she created her own world where things were simple and she could be loved again. And when that was shattered, she had a taste of her perfect life and while Vision made it clear he didn't want any part of it, she still wanted to at least have her children. And so she went deeper and more desperate and found bad book to try to use it but it ended up making her use it for more sinister purposes.

It's a pretty understandable and natural descent to villainy. I don't think it was out of nowhere at all.

Leonhart4 posted...

Watched the I Am Groot shorts

Groot's Pursuit > The Little Guy > Magnum Opus > Groot Takes a Bath > Groot's First Steps

They're all silly but still cute and enjoyable.

Bath > Little Guy > Opus > Steps > Pursuit

The ending of WandaVision gave Wanda too much of a pass.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

The ending of WandaVision gave Wanda too much of a pass.

I disagree. Who is going to stop her at that moment? It was less them giving a pass and more of a who's going to stop her?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I disagree. Who is going to stop her at that moment? It was less them giving a pass and more of a who's going to stop her?

I think Han is speaking less about someone stopping/punishing her and more about other characters making excuses for her.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I disagree. Who is going to stop her at that moment? It was less them giving a pass and more of a who's going to stop her?

I agree with Han - but I think he's talking about the world of WandaVision tacitly condoning things - hell, Rambeau pretty much tells Wanda "THEY won't get it." They. You know, the motherfuckers who were tortured and manipulated like toys in a doll's house. THEY won't get poor uber-powerful Wanda.

I mean, I'm super-biased - Wanda "No More Mutant"ed once, nearly two decades ago, and I haven't forgiven her since.

redrocket posted...

I think Han is speaking less about someone stopping/punishing her and more about other characters making excuses for her.

From what I remember the only person that made excuses for her was Monica and it comes off more as trying to console her because she was still obviously torn on whether she should let go or not.

scarletspeed7 posted...

I agree with Han - but I think he's talking about the world of WandaVision tacitly condoning things - hell, Rambeau pretty much tells Wanda "THEY won't get it." They. You know, the motherfuckers who were tortured and manipulated like toys in a doll's house. THEY won't get poor uber-powerful Wanda.

I mean, I'm super-biased - Wanda "No More Mutant"ed once, nearly two decades ago, and I haven't forgiven her since.

I suppose that is fair depending on how you look at it. I address this in my previous post but, I see that as more of someone not knowing what to say to someone that could crush her like an ant, and trying to console/de-escalate the situation. Like telling her what she thinks she needs to hear to let everybody go.

I think it comes down to the performance at that point, and I just don't feel that is the intent behind Rambeau's words there. They're presented as genuine, without agenda. And I honestly think the show is still trying at that point to paint Wanda as a hero - there's also an issue I have with the pacing by this point, which is that at the revelation of what is happening to the city, we get no time to breathe with the other citizens. We're painted into a corner of rooting for Wanda, when in reality, I have no sympathy for her treatment of hundreds of people in this way. I wish we were given more perspective from someone other than Kat Dennings.

scarletspeed7 posted...

I mean, I'm super-biased - Wanda "No More Mutant"ed once, nearly two decades ago, and I haven't forgiven her since.

It's funny, I absolutely loathe Wanda in the comics. She's the drizzling shits of a character with nonsense powers and just comes across as completely dopey and also No More Mutants. But I think the MCU just does such a better job with the character it's crazy. They hit all of the beats of her character without wading too far into the shit.

I think the one slip up they've done with her is definitely the Rambeau line at the end of WandaVision though. I would have definitely liked seeing people talking about how awful Wanda is in the news or something, justifying Wanda being in hiding and feeling more shunned from the world.

I agree completely! Just a little bit of struggle would have gone a long way to me seeing Dr. Strange less as a monster movie and more as a tale of gray shades and conflicted morality. That said, I have no qualms with Strange as it was presented.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I would have definitely liked seeing people talking about how awful Wanda is in the news or something, justifying Wanda being in hiding and feeling more shunned from the world.

I agree that this would have gone a long way for everything Wanda.

She-Hulk was enjoyable and I got some laughs.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

From what I remember the only person that made excuses for her was Monica and it comes off more as trying to console her because she was still obviously torn on whether she should let go or not.

I mean Darcy and Woo dont get any explicit lines on that level, but I feel its still strongly implied that they share that sentiment.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I don't see how Wanda's characterization was wrong (aside from that shitty line at the end of WandaVision). She was always heading deeper and deeper into her own madness and desperation to have any kind of semblance of belonging or for anyone to truly care about her.

She lost her parents, then lost her brother, was outcasted from being a beloved hero and hated by everyone, then lost her lover, and she was desperate to give herself any sort of happiness.

So after being woefully alone after Avengers Endgame, she created her own world where things were simple and she could be loved again. And when that was shattered, she had a taste of her perfect life and while Vision made it clear he didn't want any part of it, she still wanted to at least have her children. And so she went deeper and more desperate and found bad book to try to use it but it ended up making her use it for more sinister purposes.

It's a pretty understandable and natural descent to villainy. I don't think it was out of nowhere at all.

This is a good summary of things Wanda has gone through if you ignore anything she has actually said or done or tried to do

Re: all the stuff at the end of WandaVision - I completely agree Wanda is let off easy at the end of show - that was already a complaint I had about WandaVision itself - the ending does not line up tonally with what actually happened in the show - it's a hastily written hand wave to KIND OF bridge the gap to MoM - which it completely falls short of doing too, so it weakly ends the show and doesn't really connect to the movie. NOT GOOD

Really, any justification on why she is the way she is in MoM that hinges on that last scene where she flies away from town or the fact that she's reading the Darkhold don't really hold much weight - they are just as much the problem.

redrocket posted...

I mean Darcy and Woo dont get any explicit lines on that level, but I feel its still strongly implied that they share that sentiment.

Possibly. We are talking about something that came out two and a half years ago that I havent rewatched yet.

In all honesty my biggest problem with consuming movies/TV shows is I just don't really ever absorb the negative things people seem to find in whatever it is im watching. I guess my mind just fills in gaps to make sense of things others don't seem to. Like the first complaint I've ever had in the MCU was some of the CGI in Moon Knight and it was because I was super high and when I rewatched it, it wasn't as bad as I had thought on first impressions.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Possibly. We are talking about something that came out two and a half years ago that I havent rewatched yet.

Disney+ MCU shows started last year!

i had to double-check this for a second i hesitated reading this

GuessMyUserName posted...

Disney+ MCU shows started last year!

i had to double-check this for a second i hesitated reading this

Was it only last year? Ok correct that, it has felt like way longer lol.

One and a half years ago actually.

Wandavision ends with her hearing her sons' voices right? So she probably just used the Darkhold to find them and went off the deep end as a result. Not terribly fulfilling but not completely out of nowhere either.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I don't see how Wanda's characterization was wrong (aside from that shitty line at the end of WandaVision). She was always heading deeper and deeper into her own madness and desperation to have any kind of semblance of belonging or for anyone to truly care about her.

She lost her parents, then lost her brother, was outcasted from being a beloved hero and hated by everyone, then lost her lover, and she was desperate to give herself any sort of happiness.

So after being woefully alone after Avengers Endgame, she created her own world where things were simple and she could be loved again. And when that was shattered, she had a taste of her perfect life and while Vision made it clear he didn't want any part of it, she still wanted to at least have her children. And so she went deeper and more desperate and found bad book to try to use it but it ended up making her use it for more sinister purposes.

It's a pretty understandable and natural descent to villainy. I don't think it was out of nowhere at all.

This.

scarletspeed7 posted...

I agree with Han - but I think he's talking about the world of WandaVision tacitly condoning things - hell, Rambeau pretty much tells Wanda "THEY won't get it." They. You know, the motherfuckers who were tortured and manipulated like toys in a doll's house. THEY won't get poor uber-powerful Wanda.

I mean, I'm super-biased - Wanda "No More Mutant"ed once, nearly two decades ago, and I haven't forgiven her since.

Yeah, for example they totally don't get she didn't have to free them. She didn't have to let go of her husband and children. She didn't have to give up the fantasy at all, but she did. No one could have stopped her other than she herself, and they will never understand that in order to let them go she had to give up everything she ever wanted.

I know people seem to think the Vision and the kids from WV weren't real, but they were to her, and what she does is manipulate reality. She could have made them all permanently real at the cost of those innocent people and she didn't. Does that make her a hero? No, of course not. But she did give up everything she wanted to do the right thing for those people.

A good part of Multiverse of Madness is Strange coming to terms with his own grief and him calling Wanda out on her actions not being justified.

redrocket posted...

I mean Darcy and Woo dont get any explicit lines on that level, but I feel its still strongly implied that they share that sentiment.

i feel like darcy and woo weren't as pro-wanda as monica throughout the show but they definitely agreed with her in the end, yeah.

When I say "they" gave Wanda too much of a pass, I mean the people making the show.

It's just the common sentiment that people feel there was a disconnect between Wanda at the end of WV and being a villain at the head of MoM.

Doesn't help that apparently the writers of MoM were unaware of Wandavision until like halfway into the writing process. When watching the movie I felt like joking that Sam Raimi was hired to salvage the mess, or that alternately he was hired entirely because the plot hinges on a book of evil. Unfortunately when I did make that joke it flew right over my family's head because they weren't even aware of Evil Dead - my parents flat-out do not watch horror movies generally.

I also feel like asking if anyone else in this thread has seen Darkman, since that was Raimi's first superhero movie and one of the rare ones not based on a comic book (there were Darkman comics later though).

Wanda was willing to torture hundreds of people for the illusion of a family.

Her being willing to kill hundreds for the real thing doesn't seem out of line to me.

Especially when you include none stop studying of a corrupting evil magic book pushing her to extremes.

a few minutes longer than last week lezgo shulk threee

its too bad the CGI is looking pretty janky, I really am enjoying the show

the wrecking crew showing up and being total jabronis was pretty funny. Magical glowing construction helmet is so silly looking.

B-plots a bit of a drag since Dennis & Runa are so unlikeable (lol tho pointing out the A-plot B-plot structure), but the Wong/Abomination side's great and I love the ending now coming to turns with being She-Hulk, good little nudge from Blonsky

as someone that really never gets bothered by CGI, oof this one ended with some real jank that even I couldn't miss when fighting them jabronis. oh lord they clearly try to make quick cuts to get around it but it's so obvious. Awkward since the episode didn't really have that much She-Hulk in it but that part was pretty rough.

love 'em post credits tho lmao

lmao the social media comments were pulled from the series's announcement on insta

https://twitter.com/shehuIkupdates/status/1565345706029723649