Current Events > Skateboarder Taylor Silverman speaks out after placing 2nd to trans competitor

(+) Yeah! (+)

If you already think thats an answer why do you need to know what I think about your opinion?

Gwynevere posted...

This will remain one of the stupidest fucking arguments I regularly see. The research already suggests the physical advantage trans women have goes away after sufficient time on HRT. So the goal posts shift from "they always have an advantage" to "well prove that they're 12 months on HRT" and if you can prove that it'll be "okay well let me see both of their hormone level charts"

It's never gonna end because fairness in sports isn't the point to these people

I just do not think there is enough research to be able to say yay or nay on the issue. I have no problem with trans people competing in sports, but to say that an advantage does not exist is simply untrue.

Her agent spied an opportunity to run a grift.

k1zzl3_82 posted...

I just do not think there is enough research to be able to say yay or nay on the issue. I have no problem with trans people competing in sports, but to say that an advantage does not exist is simply untrue.

The study provided earlier already has an established baseline of 12+ months, sure there isn't a concrete timeline yet, unless someone has another study they would like to provide, but as stated, people will keep moving the goalposts when it comes to this.

I would like to reiterate that the timeline ultimately doesn't matter either. If you haven't noticed, this is always only an 'issue' when a trans person wins. They get 2nd? 3rd? Last? No one gives a shit. Suddenly a transwoman wins a sporting event everyone loses their shit.

I mentioned earlier that this particular case is based off 3 events, where the person in question making the accusation of an advantage got 2nd in two of those said events. That is no where near enough of a sample size to make any claim of any sort of advantage.

k1zzl3_82 posted...

but to say that an advantage does not exist is simply untrue.

Okay, but what does it mean to say "an advantage exists"? What then?

CyricZ posted...

Okay, but what does it mean to say "an advantage exists"? What then?

Who cares an advantage is an advantage

k1zzl3_82 posted...

I just do not think there is enough research to be able to say yay or nay on the issue.

Fuck how could I forget this one, this one is a classic. Never enough research!

k1zzl3_82 posted...

but to say that an advantage does not exist is simply untrue.

But you're satisfied with the amount of research that would confirm this is the case even after sufficient time on HRT?

k1zzl3_82 posted...

Who cares an advantage is an advantage

So what? advantages already exist with cis athletes among other cis athletes.

Why not destroy the gendered leagues and create new leagues based solely on capability/merit? Build? Solutions to this issue require creativity, perhaps energy would better be spent on the "coming up with ideas that work" side of things than whatever tf this topic became...

k1zzl3_82 posted...

also I have searched this topic and googled it. Where does it say she has been on hormones for years?

You can literally fucking find records of her and there's pictures going back a few years. She's not some brand new skateboarder who premiered in pro skateboard just this year. :l

k1zzl3_82 posted...

ok

Then will you agree then that transwomen with less than a year of treatment should not be allowed to compete in competitions with cis women because they have an advantage?

That's in line with the current Olympic standard, and we have yet to have any trans woman compete and medal at all. So like, what the fuck is your point? Just trying to find one "gotcha" then go on from there?

If this is line trying to haggle for you then state the furthest you're willing to allow these bans to go.

gunplagirl posted...

You can literally fucking find records of her and there's pictures going back a few years. She's not some brand new skateboarder who premiered in pro skateboard just this year. :l

That's in line with the current Olympic standard, and we have yet to have any trans woman compete and medal at all. So like, what the fuck is your point? Just trying to find one "gotcha" then go on from there?

If this is line trying to haggle for you then state the furthest you're willing to allow these bans to go.

I looked for records and couldn't find any. When I asked for help with finding them I was told that is private info.
I never said anything about the Olympic standard. I just want one person to say that with less than a year of treatment that trans women can potentially have an advantage. Nobody will say that even though a study that DespondentDeity posted said it to be true. If Lillian has been in treatment for years as you say then that is fine. You cannot just claim it and say its true. I looked and did not find results. Perhaps you will be so kind and show me.

k1zzl3_82 posted...

I looked for records and couldn't find any. When I asked for help with finding them I was told that is private info.
I never said anything about the Olympic standard. I just want one person to say that with less than a year of treatment that trans women can potentially have an advantage. Nobody will say that even though a study that DespondentDeity posted said it to be true. If Lillian has been in treatment for years as you say then that is fine. You cannot just claim it and say its true. I looked and did not find results. Perhaps you will be so kind and show me.

Damn I thought you cared about sports, and you can't even find the competitive records for a pro athlete?

k1zzl3_82 posted...

Who cares an advantage is an advantage

Does that really just shut down the whole argument right there? Is that all you were looking for through all of this? No follow through? No action items? No proposed policy or ideals going forward?

sevihaimerej posted...

Why not destroy the gendered leagues and create new leagues based solely on capability/merit? Build? Solutions to this issue require creativity, perhaps energy would better be spent on the "coming up with ideas that work" side of things than whatever tf this topic became...

We already do that.

IT's called the mens leagues.

The NFL, NBA, MLB etc is not sex segregated. Women just can't compete in it because of biology.

It confuses me to hell and back that people just flat out refuse to accept this and keep suggesting "Why not just do gender neutral sports!?" without accepting that would just mean the end of womens pro-sports.

"Why don't we just make basketball gender neutral" is the same thing as saying "Why don't we just close down the WNBA."

That's your "idea that works."

It's sick

gunplagirl posted...

Damn I thought you cared about sports, and you can't even find the competitive records for a pro athlete?

You not providing it, tells me you just made it up.

UnfairRepresent posted...

We already do that.

IT's called the mens leagues.

The NFL, NBA, MLB etc is not sex segregated. Women just can't compete in it because of biology.

It confuses me to hell and back that people just flat out refuse to accept this and keep suggesting "Why not just do gender neutral sports!?" without accepting that would just mean the end of womens pro-sports.

"Why don't we just make basketball gender neutral" is the same thing as saying "Why don't we just close down the WNBA."

That's your "idea that works."

It's sick

I know, just spit balling here, point is we need solutions and not all this incessant us vs them bickering. Science will eventually catch up, think I'll just nap until then

k1zzl3_82 posted...

You not providing it, tells me you just made it up.

You not being able to find it, tells me you don't actually care about sports

gunplagirl posted...

You not being able to find it, tells me you don't actually care about sports

hahahaha
ok

Tenlaar posted...

Equating the hatred from bigotry and the hatred of bigotry is fucking stupid.

Acting like anybody who isnt sold on trans women competing with cis women is some raging anti-trans bigot is also fucking stupid.

In all fairness. 90% of the time, they usually are anti-trans.

Did TC ever post again in this topic aside from the OP?

Another success!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-lfjdqAXuw&t=400s

Here is Lilian winning 3rd place in Red Bull's 2019 Women's competition. What advantage?

CommonStar posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-lfjdqAXuw&t=400s

Here is Lilian winning 3rd place in Red Bull's 2019 Women's competition. What advantage?

"Just because this small woman isn't getting every win doesn't mean she doesn't have a huge advantage over every cis woman. She still has denser bones or something"

She has too many bones!!!!

greyfox747 posted...

She has too many bones!!!!

"Dear Mr. President. Trans women have too many bones. Please remove three. I am NOT a crackpot."

Is an advantage still an advantage if all it does is just make it so you remain just as competitive as the rest of your competition? Don't advatages need to leave you in a position to have an overwhelming edge, cause otherwise where's the advantage at and how does it manifest?

sevihaimerej posted...

Why not destroy the gendered leagues and create new leagues based solely on capability/merit? Build? Solutions to this issue require creativity, perhaps energy would better be spent on the "coming up with ideas that work" side of things than whatever tf this topic became...

Why expel any energy at all when the solution to all these LGBT issues is to do absolutely nothing new.

Society loves to make up problems just so we can bitch at each other and waste time and money solving issues that don't need to be issues.

Tolerance requires little action and little stress.

Can the people on the pro-trans side of the conversation answer one question for me?

Does or does not a trans woman have a biological advantage over a customer woman in physical competitions involving strength and/stamina?

TommyG663513 posted...

Who has actually pushed to ban transwomen from sports?

My understanding is that they want transwomen to compete in the men's category of sport. How do you reason that they are being banned from the sport altogether?

What I mean is, all the polticians pushing to legislate that also just flat don't like trans people. It's not a coincidence. If they stopped framing being trans as a choice that shouldn't be groomed into children, maybe the many advantages they worry about would disappear.

But again, their interests aren't just protecting the sanctity of women's sports. It's their best bet to gain traction for their larger anti-trans legislation campaign.

why did you see Tommy ignore the post laying out the science of trans women having reduced musculature and durability, and continue to respond to him? he clearly just likes shit talking trans people

leave him and his fetid views yelling into a void already

Tobi011 posted...

In all fairness. 90% of the time, they usually are anti-trans.

Um no. This is a terrible argument and it needs to be said over and over. There is nothing anti trans about questioning whether or not it is fair for trans women to compete with cis women. When nothing else is being discussed beyond that and you pigeonhole people into being "anti" then you are discussing in bad faith.

TommyG663513 posted...

Their behaviors for one

Which are informed by their attitudes and beliefs.

This seems like a very pedantic difference. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" type stuff.

holy_bolt posted...

Can the people on the pro-trans side of the conversation answer one question for me?

Does or does not a trans woman have a biological advantage over a customer woman in physical competitions involving strength and/stamina?

Sure, if they haven't gone through HRT. After HRT, doubtful. But the advantage in either case is not significant enough that it can't be overcome by better training. Every athlete whether cis or trans will have their own advantages and disadvantages. The only time unfairness is brought up is when it comes to trans athletes, specifically trans woman athletes.

Mikea posted...

why did you see Tommy ignore the post laying out the science of trans women having reduced musculature and durability, and continue to respond to him? he clearly just likes shit talking trans people

leave him and his fetid views yelling into a void already

What post is this? You're gonna have to link it or give a post number.

Also, I'm not against trans women competing against cis women at all. I just think it is silly to act like trans women won't on average have a physical advantage over cis women. No hate in my heart for anyone.

Labeling me as a bigot is just you being intellectually lazy.

Deutschenlied posted...

Which are informed by their attitudes and beliefs.

This seems like a very pedantic difference. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" type stuff.

Yeah I don't care about how much hate is in someone's heart if they don't or won't ever act on it. If they just want to sit in a room and be angry then why should I care?

oh, ew don't talk to me.

I'm sorry for portraying myself as someone you think would give you the time of day

Mikea posted...

oh, ew don't talk to me.

I'm sorry for portraying myself as someone you think would give you the time of day

hahahaha there it is.

what is funny is when certain people in this topic are asked to back up what they say, they all of a sudden do not have time. Yet they made the initial post

Why are trans women prancing around all chock fulla bones like that tho

what are they planning to do with that many bones

greyfox747 posted...

Why are trans women prancing around all chock fulla bones like that tho

what are they planning to do with that many bones

The extra bones are for stabbing, clearly

k1zzl3_82 posted...

hahahaha there it is.

what is funny is when certain people in this topic are asked to back up what they say, they all of a sudden do not have time. Yet they made the initial post

Hairistotle is terrified of engaging on anything beyond snarky drive by snipes because he's not smart enough to back up any arguments without getting upset and losing another account.

I'm famous

TommyG663513 posted...

Um no. This is a terrible argument and it needs to be said over and over. There is nothing anti trans about questioning whether or not it is fair for trans women to compete with cis women. When nothing else is being discussed beyond that and you pigeonhole people into being "anti" then you are discussing in bad faith.

That's not exactly what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that most people who ever bring up this argument up is usually anti-trans. That and most people usually don't care about women's sports.

CommonStar posted...

Sure

Ok, with that established, how do we decide what is "fair" in sports? In something that is inherently a meritocracy, one set of competitors having a unique advantage definitely isn't "fair". Bringing up training is irrelevant because it's a zero sum factor. Is it fair for a cis woman to need to do *more* training just to be on equal footing?

Mikea posted...

oh, ew don't talk to me.

I'm sorry for portraying myself as someone you think would give you the time of day

Oh wow so you're just here to be bad faith and mock people. Ok then

TommyG663513 posted...

Oh wow so you're just here to be bad faith and mock people. Ok then

I cant believe that he doesnt want to talk to the guy who keeps getting suspended for being transphobic and is just calling everyone else insane ITT

i wonder why nobody wants to talk to you. Its a real mystery

Tobi011 posted...

That's not exactly what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that most people who ever bring up this argument up is usually anti-trans. That and most people usually don't care about women's sports.

Yeah those are all bad faith and hominem arguments. That is what I was pointing out.

TommyG663513 posted...

Yeah those are all bad faith and hominem arguments. That is what I was pointing out.

Why is making assumptions based on experience bad faith?

I know people IRL who accuse me of reading too far into what they say when they engage in the same behavior every time X or Y is brought up. People are not the enigmas they think they are and I guess it's a shame that exceptions to the rule get caught up in that.

CommonStar posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-lfjdqAXuw&t=400s

Here is Lilian winning 3rd place in Red Bull's 2019 Women's competition. What advantage?

Oh man you mean I wasn't making it up when I said she's been professionally skateboarding for years, like what @k1zzl3_82 tried to imply?

gunplagirl posted...

Oh man you mean I wasn't making it up when I said she's been professionally skateboarding for years, like what @k1zzl3_82 tried to imply?

Quote the post where I said that You said she has been on HRT for years. I asked for proof of that.

Deutschenlied posted...

Why is making assumptions based on experience bad faith?

I know people IRL who accuse me of reading too far into what they say when they engage in the same behavior every time X or Y is brought up. People are not the enigmas they think they are and I guess it's a shame that exceptions to the rule get caught up in that.

Because you are making broad assumptions. That is like the definition of bad faith.