Board 8 > Nintendo officially endorses "Search Action" as a genre name

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah, platformers usually have hidden stuff to search for and it's a pretty major part of the game, but their level design is often quite linear.

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Metroidvania works just fine, I see no reason to change it...

What, you guys don't call mgs and splinter cell "tactical espionage action"?

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"Search" in this context isn't "look for", definitely "explore". Like a search algorithm not a search party.

Leonhart4 posted...

You can, which is why they're categorized as "stage clear" games by Nintendo. The ultimate goal is still just to beat the level.

But this is a good point. We're just talking about the goal genre right now. There are plenty of other types of genre, and subgenres. So we can break it down like this:

Goal genres: Exploration, stage clear, arcade/highscore, race, battle royale
Action genres: platforming, traversal, shooting, combat, crafting, puzzle

Mario is a stage clear platformer, and Hotline Miami is a stage clear twin stick shooter. Robotron is an arcade twin stick shooter. Tetris 99 is a battle royale puzzle, and regular Tetris is an arcade puzzle.

(Another type would be narrative genre: Horror, thriller, fantasy, cartoon, adventure)

With Metroidvania, it seems to be trying to find the intersection of genres for Metroid and SOTN. So exploration is the goal, and traversal combat for the action. Leveling and shooting are not shared so they aren't part of it.

Lots of games have an exploration goal, like Outer Wilds. But that game's action is puzzle instead of combat. Though it still has traversal, and it shares the alien narrative genre, so it feels pretty Metroidy overall.

This is really the only way to make sense of genres, and why game databases use a tag-based genre system. Very few classic genres are broken down in this way which is why they're nonsense.

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Lightning Strikes posted...

This is absolutely right. I adore Castlevania and especially the Iga ones, however it is definitely an imposter here. The gap between Metroid 1 and Symphony of the Night is 1.5x the gap between Symphony of the Night and Cave Story, and most Castlevania games arent even Metroidvanias in any way.

It's undeniable that SotN changed the genre and pushed it towards its current form, though. Melee combat, visible stats, usable items, non-essential armor and weapons, enemy drops, NPCs, a viewable bestiary -- all of these are things SotN brought in. It also really codified how Metroidvania maps work, to the extent that even future Metroid games copied SotN's map -- though that difference is pretty small so you could definitely argue it was just the natural evolution from Super Metroid.

I might get push-back for this but Cave Story is really barely even a Metroidvania at all. That game is extremely linear and plot-heavy. It's also full of a lot of what I'll call "events" for lack of a better term. Escorting Curly, finding the 5 dogs, etc. Most Metroidvanias have maybe one of these, at the end of the game typically, because otherwise it impacts your ability to explore the world. Cave Story also has a lot less in the way of character progression than other Metroidvanias.

(The rest of this post isn't really a response to you, I'm just using this as an opportunity to go off about something I find interesting)

Really, I think we could even break down Metroidvanias into these three styles:

Super Metroid style (typically: ranged combat, light RPG elements, sci-fi setting, floaty controls): Metroid Prime, Shadow Complex, The Divide: Enemies Within, Axiom Verge, Xeodrifter, Gato Roboto, A Robot Named Fight!, arguably Ori

SotN style (typically: melee combat, heavy RPG elements, fantasy setting, tighter controls): IGAvanias, Bloodstained, Chasm, Aquaria, Momodora, Touhou Luna Nights, arguably Hollow Knight

Cave Story style (story-focused, less character progression, heavy use of events/gameplay challenges): All I can think of here is Iconoclasts, but I'm sure there are others! This style isn't my cup of tea so I don't seek them out.

There's definitely room for disagreement about where a game should be placed, and some (like Yoku's Island Express) defy the categorization entirely, but I think when you play enough of these games the different styles really do become apparent.

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>Ok now explain how Metroidvania conveys genre in a vaccum. Or RPG or FPS.

Metroidvania conveys genre because metroidvania is a word in the language english that means "game like metroid"

You may as well be asking "explain how the word 'candy' conveys meaning in a vacuum." It just does. That's how language works: a bunch of people start saying something, so now that thing they say is part of the language.

If we called Metroidvanias "coathanger baklavas" ("Just finished SotN so now I'm looking for a new coathanger baklava") then that would be the correct term to use instead of something more "descriptive," because a tiny little genre name doesn't tell you what kind of game it is unless you already know lots of games in that genre and others so you can compare them.

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

>Ok now explain how Metroidvania conveys genre in a vaccum. Or RPG or FPS.

Metroidvania conveys genre because metroidvania is a word in the language english that means "game like metroid"

You may as well be asking "explain how the word 'candy' conveys meaning in a vacuum." It just does. That's how language works: a bunch of people start saying something, so now that thing they say is part of the language.

If we called Metroidvanias "coathanger baklavas" ("Just finished SotN so now I'm looking for a new coathanger baklava") then that would be the correct term to use instead of something more "descriptive," because a tiny little genre name doesn't tell you what kind of game it is unless you already know lots of games in that genre and others so you can compare them.

If someone doesn't know what Metroid is, telling them it's a Metroidvania does nothing. They don't know what "metroid" or "vania" is referring to. If you tell them it's "Exploration Action", they know what the elements mean so they can at least get a general idea of what it is.

Even if you can't know exactly what a game is by a genre name, most genres give at least some indication of the content. Some are very self explanatory, like Racing, Sports, FPS, etc. but even more ambiguous ones like Adventure, Action, and Fighting at least describe the game to some degree.

also Metroidvania can't be compared to a word like "candy" that literally every English speaker knows. It's not on that level of awareness. I doubt even 50% of English speakers know what it means

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clearly the genre should be called Metroidfouria

Kenri posted...

Melee combat, visible stats, usable items, non-essential armor and weapons, enemy drops, NPCs, a viewable bestiary -- all of these are things SotN brought in.

And none have anything to do with Metroid. Literally the only reason it's called Metroidvania is because there's a Metroid-like map and abilities.

So the term just means Metroid-like. The vania part is nonsense that has confused the genre.

NeatoAnAccount posted...

Metroidvania conveys genre because metroidvania is a word in the language english that means "game like metroid"

That's why the lack of awareness in statements like these are pretty surprising. Why the hell do you want to keep the "vania" if it's meaningless at best? Just say Metroid-like. Been doing that for years and it's way more clear. Or SOTN-like if you mean the things kenri mentioned.

And if you want a broader genre than "similar to this one game", then exploration action is perfect.

btw you know you agree with me right? You repeated my exact point but worse.

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I insist on keeping vania because Castlevania > Metroid

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Nonlinear action

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I believe IGA has been on record that SOTN was more inspired by Legend of Zelda than by Metroid (makes sense since Metroids never been that popular in Japan) so the connection is even looser

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WazzupGenius00 posted...

I believe IGA has been on record that SOTN was more inspired by Legend of Zelda than by Metroid (makes sense since Metroids never been that popular in Japan) so the connection is even looser

Well if they really did independently come up with the format, maybe that's more reason to put both names into "metroidvania"

but anyway I'm realllly starting to like the phrase Exploration Action after this thread. such a useful term

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What do the anti-Metroidvania people think of Soulslike/Roguelike as terms?

ninkendo posted...

I insist on keeping vania because Castlevania > Metroid

There's a reason it's not called Castletroid!

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Exploration action sounds like Zelda.

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I vote for Exploraction

andylt posted...

What do the anti-Metroidvania people think of Soulslike/Roguelike as terms?

Not great. First time I heard roguelike I had no idea what kind of game it was because I'd never heard of Rogue.

Soulslike is not it's own genre, so I guess it's fine

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Most Zeldas are Metroidvanias, especially the 2D ones.

Also I wouldn't call Metroidvania its own genre.
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"search action" doesn't convey very well, before clicking on this topic I thought it was going to be about hidden object games lmao

I like "exploration action" though
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Jakyl25 posted...

Nonlinear action

I thought about this, too. I think it conveys the concept fairly well.

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MZero posted...

If someone doesn't know what Metroid is, telling them it's a Metroidvania does nothing. They don't know what "metroid" or "vania" is referring to. If you tell them it's "Exploration Action", they know what the elements mean so they can at least get a general idea of what it is.

You're discussing metroidvanias with people who don't know what metroid is? This is like saying we should change the name "wavebounce" in Smash Bros because it's meaningless to people who've never heard of wavedashing and doesn't tell you anything about it.

Also exploration action is a really generic term. Like sure, you can tell won't play like an FPS or JRPG, but "exploration action" sounds like basically any game with real-time combat where you're looking around for stuff. Metroidvanias have a really specific structure that you have to see to understand. You can't communicate the genre to the uninitiated in a snappy little 3-word name, you need a full description.

MZero posted...

also Metroidvania can't be compared to a word like "candy" that literally every English speaker knows. It's not on that level of awareness. I doubt even 50% of English speakers know what it means

My contention is that the word metroidvania is known and used by too many people to be forcibly changed from the outside by scolding people who say metroidvania.

foolm0r0n posted...

The vania part is nonsense that has confused the genre.

Who's actually confused about what constitutes a metroidvania because of the vania part? Literally nobody, or merely practically nobody?

foolm0r0n posted...

btw you know you agree with me right? You repeated my exact point but worse.

I don't agree with you. You're saying that people should stop saying -vania because metroidvanias are all metroid and no vania.

You've obviously never taken a linguistics class. If you had, you would understand that language change is a bottom up process. Someone says a word, their friends go "hey i like that word" and also start saying the word. And then eventually, everyone knows what the word means.


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MZero posted...

Soulslike is not it's own genre, so I guess it's fine

Mac Arrowny posted...

Also I wouldn't call Metroidvania its own genre.

What is then it? A set of unrelated characteristics? A vibe?

For the record I think foolmo's comments about genre tags are the way to go. Too many games have multiple influences from multiple genres and start to defy the narrow boxes one genre puts them in, so picking one genre is really only useful for quick convenience (which would make "Metroidvania" and "Soulslike" useful genres as broad descriptions).

I do like "exploration action" and "exploration platformer" as an alternative though. "Search action" is technically true but feels blander and less precise so I've never liked it.

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

Also exploration action is a really generic term. Like sure, you can tell won't play like an FPS or JRPG

I wouldn't even say this. If someone who didn't know what a Metroidvania was played Metroid Prime and Symphony of the Night, they could easily come away from that saying "okay, I played an FPS and a JRPG. Where are the exploration action games?"

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Kenri posted...

I wouldn't even say this. If someone who didn't know what a Metroidvania was played Metroid Prime and Symphony of the Night, they could easily come away from that saying "okay, I played an FPS and a JRPG. Where are the exploration action games?"

Who's heard of "exploration action" but not "metroidvania" though? This is a nonexistent category of person. Exploration action would maybe be a slightly easier term for this hypothetical person to learn, but this hypothetical person doesn't exist.

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

Who's heard of "exploration action" but not "metroidvania" though? This is a nonexistent category of person. Exploration action would maybe be a slightly easier term for this hypothetical person to learn, but this hypothetical person doesn't exist.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I was just using a hypothetical situation to say that the term doesn't even really tell you that the genre is unlike an FPS or an RPG. Maybe it tells you it's not, like, a sports game or a VN, though.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Nonlinear action

GTA?

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andylt posted...

What do the anti-Metroidvania people think of Soulslike/Roguelike as terms?

They're fine because they're saying the game is similar to this other specific game... in theory. In practice, most Roguelikes have nothing to do with Rogue (basically only Necrodancer does), and Soulslike just means you lose money/exp when you die. So, kinda useless.

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

You've obviously never taken a linguistics class

lol. Not that you need a class to believe in language descriptivism. That's the part that we agree on btw. I don't agree with your idea that "metroid" and "vania" are equally well understood as "exploration" and "action"

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While I think the term Metroidvania is colloquially understood to be a certain sort of thing, my problems are:

1) It's annoying that the genre name is born out of a misunderstanding of its origin, but this happens in language sometimes (to me, Metroidvania describes "a Castlevania game that is like Metroid" - SotN, GBA/DS Castlevanias, and probably Bloodstained but that's about it)

2) Most of the games that people describe with this genre term aren't really that much like Metroid or SotN

foolm0r0n posted...

I don't agree with your idea that "metroid" and "vania" are equally well understood as "exploration" and "action"

Does anyone know what an exploration action game is that hasn't heard of a metroidvania?

which of the following 2 exchanges is more likely:
"what's an exploration action game?"
"a metroidvania"
"thanks I completely understand now"

or

"what's a metroidvania?"
"an exploration action game"
"thanks I completely understand now"

the answer is the first one. The concept of a metroidvania/explact will be unfamiliar to you until you actually experience it. Once you've experienced it, the word you'll pick up for this has like a 99.9% chance of being "metroidvania"

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foolm0r0n posted...

GTA?

Well, I would maybe use nonlinear 2-D platforming if we're wanting to be more precise, especially since 3-D platformers tend to be nonlinear in general anyway.

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I just believe that jargon should primarily be designed for uninitiated. When all the jargon depends on other jargon, it's way harder to get into a hobby

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Epyo posted...

I just believe that jargon should primarily be designed for uninitiated. When all the jargon depends on other jargon, it's way harder to get into a hobby

Jargon is by definition terminology used by those within the circle and might be difficult for those outside the circle to understand.

And that's really all these things are. You're not going to use the term "Metroidvania" or even "search action" with a non-gamer, at least not without having to go into further detail about what it is. Even something like "platformer" wouldn't be immediately evident to a non-gamer. This is terminology for gamers.

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

You're discussing metroidvanias with people who don't know what metroid is? This is like saying we should change the name "wavebounce" in Smash Bros because it's meaningless to people who've never heard of wavedashing and doesn't tell you anything about it.

I can't speak for the Smash community, but in the part of the competitive Pokemon community I'm in the topic of terminology making it hard for new players to understand what is going on does come up. Like "Big Six" doesn't mean much to anyone who doesn't already know what it means.
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NeatoAnAccount posted...

You're discussing metroidvanias with people who don't know what metroid is?

The context for this is literally describing what genre a Metroid game is.

Though even there you could call it a 2D action platformer and get most of the way there. Add that it's open world or exploration focused for the rest.
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https://youtu.be/CZzcRDKjMfw

Jimquisition that makes some good points.

Mac Arrowny posted...

The context for this is literally describing what genre a Metroid game is.

Though even there you could call it a 2D action platformer and get most of the way there. Add that it's open world or exploration focused for the rest.

Yeah, before the term Metroidvania started to pop-up more often, I would call them side-scroller action games. I guess thats just too broad now.

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too bad "maze game" was already taken by Pac-Man and it's billion clones

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NeatoAnAccount posted...

the answer is the first one

I fully understand your argument but it's extremely dumb.

"Exploration" is literally a word in a dictionary that people use all the time for all kinds of things. You can translate it natively to others language. How the hell would "Metroid" be better understood? I honestly don't know how you believe this argument, but it seems genuine.

Beyond that, you are also arguing that adding "vania" makes the term even more well understood. Even though you need to know:

• It refers to Castlevania
• It refers to just SOTN and not any of a dozen other Castlevanias
  
• It doesn't refer to any of the RPG elements, only the map and abilities
  

How??

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WhiteLens posted...

Yeah, before the term Metroidvania started to pop-up more often, I would call them side-scroller action games. I guess thats just too broad now.

1. That doesn't really apply to 3D games that are Metroidvanias
2. That applies more to Mega Man or Contra style games than Metroid style games IMO
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Also "you have to play this specific video game in order to understand the word that describes it" should be an instant hint that the word sucks. Defeats the whole point of language.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

1. That doesn't really apply to 3D games that are Metroidvanias

are there any?

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DeepsPraw posted...

are there any?

Metroid Prime and Jedi Fallen Order are two of the bigger ones.
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I'm bothered by that vestigial tail of -vania at the end because to me, "Metroidvania" strongly implies RPG elements, but it doesn't seem to mean that for most people

would you consider OoT to be a metroidvania, then?

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Arkham Asylum best 3D MV

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The Castlevania games from SotN through the DS trilogy were pretty much the only bearers of the "Metroid-like" genre besides Metroid so that's why it stuck. The genre really exploded with the indie scene after.

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DeepsPraw posted...

are there any?

In addition to what others have brought up, I think that Journey to the Savage Planet is a great game.
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DeepsPraw posted...

would you consider OoT to be a metroidvania, then?

A lot of Zelda games fit the bill, honestly. OoT included.
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foolm0r0n posted...

It doesn't refer to any of the RPG elements, only the map and abilities

It totally does refer to the RPG elements though.

DeepsPraw posted...

are there any?

The Divide: Enemies Within is an obscure one for the PS1! The first upgrade you get is unbroken legs.

Mac Arrowny posted...

A lot of Zelda games fit the bill, honestly. OoT included.

The world isn't seamless enough for me to count them honestly. It's close though. Maybe it's a Metroidvania-like!

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Kenri posted...

The world isn't seamless enough for me to count them honestly. It's close though. Maybe it's a Metroidvania-like!

Next you're gonna tell me Portrait of Ruin isn't a Metroidvania because the portraits are basically dungeons!
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