Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 363: SEC Speed

(+) Yeah! (+)

masterplum posted...

Then we shouldn't do minimum wage increases either because its the exact same thing

Ding ding ding

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Corrik7 posted...

Ding ding ding

I've never understood how people believe this when it's never played out as directly proportional to inflation in any instance of minimum wage being instituted or increased

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but apparently the Senate just passed the Covid budget resolution that'll allow them to bypass the filibuster when voting for the actual bill... but that vote on the actual bill won't take place until after the impeachment trial.

The trial is important, but it's not have superceded $1400 checks and the expansion of unemployment. This seems like Dems just prioritized things terribly. =/

can't believe we're waiting for them to go through another impeachment sideshow before we get stimilus checks. What a fucking joke party.

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Corrik7 posted...

Ding ding ding

Corrik just doesnt like facts today.

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Samurai7 posted...

I've never understood how people believe this when it's never played out as directly proportional to inflation in any instance of minimum wage being instituted or increased

They have no sense of economic scale and lack the mental capacity to realize that something other than 1:1 relationships can exist.

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Let me tell you

About a little concept

Called price freezes

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Corrik7 posted...

ICE is obviously an important part of our nations defense against illegal immigration. It is hard to not support those that defend out nations sovereignty on a daily basis.

its actually super easy to not support them

I do it every day and it takes zero effort
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Peace___Frog posted...

They have no sense of economic scale and lack the mental capacity to realize that something other than 1:1 relationships can exist.

What's really baffling is that they think that a 1:1 price increase would ever happen, while claiming to understand how business works. Do they really think that when you buy an item at a store, 100% of the price goes toward paying the minimum wage employees?

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Samurai7 posted...

I've never understood how people believe this when it's never played out as directly proportional to inflation in any instance of minimum wage being instituted or increased

It all depends on where the free market minimum wage is. If the free market minimum wage is above the government minimum wage then a minimum wage increase is beneficial to society because it undercuts the ability of employers to exploit employees who for whatever reason are not able to acheive their actual worth (Because of geography, Racism, Sexism or whatever)

Its why I don't support an abolishment of the current federal minimum wage even though I disagree with raising it. You are playing russian roulette every time you raise the minimum wage and I would rather focus efforts on removing roadblocks from getting people to their actual value

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Lightning Strikes posted...

Let me tell you

About a little concept

Called price freezes

Let me tell you

About a little concept

Called bread lines

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masterplum posted...

Let me tell you

About a little concept

Called bread lines

Let me tell you

About a Little Concept

Called when people have more money, they spend more money. Which in turn means other people spend more money because they too have more money now.

But go on with your scare tactics, and suggesting we can't pay people livable wages so your corporate overlords can keep their billions of dollars without ever really giving back to the communities they scavenge.

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You may actually need to define that, because my understanding is that that phrase has very different definitions between our countries and that affects what I say back!

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Talk about all or nothing. Sheesh

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So unless you have a command economy, Price freezes make people want a good more than people want to producte a good.

You know how there is a giant 1 hour line on Jimmy Johns $1 Sub day? That is what price freezes does. The only way to prevent hour long lines for goods before they run out in a price freeze is if the government can force production of goods.

Which is litterally communism, which, regardless of your views of communism, is not something that is going to happen in America for the next hundred years

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Amazing to me how raising minimum wage / giving UBI is a bad idea because 'prices will just raise with it!'

Certainly hasn't stopped prices from raising despite no real increase in wages in the last 40 years

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masterplum posted...

You know how there is a giant 1 hour line on Jimmy Johns $1 Sub day? That is what price freezes does. The only way to prevent hour long lines for goods before they run out in a price freeze is if the government can force production of goods.

A price freeze does not increase demand in the same way that dropping prices by 81% does.

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Dancedreamer posted...

A price freeze does not increase demand in the same way that dropping prices by 81% does.

No, but it does decrease supply if costs increase which is effectively the same thing

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At this point we have thousands of generations of human history to irrefutably prove that the poor get fucked harder and harder without a strong and MANDATED (ie: governmental) safety net in place to keep them from literally starving to death. An increase in minimum wage at least in line with inflation (and we haven't even done that) is one way to strengthen that safety net, or at least keep it patched together.

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A concept so communist that Nixon did it! And its common throughout the world across the ideological spectrum.

Besides, a price freeze would clearly be targeted eg energy, telecoms, etc. at things that have the most appreciable impact on cost of living. But the notion that prices for essential goods and services need to be high to price certain people out is hilariously dystopian.

Theres nothing especially communist about it by the way. Its not even socialist. Its a standard social democratic policy, ie government regulation of a capitalist market to help people. The communist attack line is just something that rightwingers say to try to make every moderate proposal taboo, like the way Biden was smeared at the 2020 election.

Theres actually a great example of this very thing from the UK - Ed Miliband proposed a modest energy price freeze in his 2015 manifesto, got smeared as a mad marxist for it by the Tories, then just over one year later what did the Tory government do? Freeze energy prices. Which, at least, gave us this amazing tweet:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/783598959222718464

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Conservatives are hypocrites? Say it ain't so!

Conservatives making bad policy decisions doesn't mean they are good

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Youre right, it was a bad decision.

They should have taken energy entirely back into public control! There shouldnt be a market on essential utilities. And indeed there was not for a very, very long time, and is not in many capitalist nations. Its also something that will happen in countries like the UK eventually because public support is there. With rail renationalisation effectively happening its the next step.

I look forward to you calling the UK a communist state!

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minimum wage increases and UBI are certainly better solutions than "do nothing lol"

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Lightning Strikes posted...

There shouldnt be a market on essential utilities.

Sad Texas noises

I will never buy into the fear mongering with minimum wage increases or UBI. Other countries make them work.

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As one last thing, you know that when people in power suggest policies like these, they arent trying to destroy capitalism, but rather make it sustainable right? A free market system will inevitably destroy itself, you just need to look at the climate crisis to see that. Leaving it unregulated without a proper safety net is also a good way to get both fascism and communism, as we have seen many times. If you actually want the market and liberal society to survive you need to take these actions, and they need to come from government, because profit will always trump sense for businesses.

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At least for me personally, I find minimum wage increases and some sort of universal healthcare to be substantially greater concerns than UBI. Not that I think UBI is bad but I think the most good would come from implementing the first two policies first and then reevaluating what is still needed after that.

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SEAN HANNITY: Alright, so, apparently everybody uses the word fight fight fight" -- not just Donald Trump.

And apparently if we're gonna define insurrection as marching peacefully and patriotically to let your voices be heard" -- well, I would say all these Democrats we keep playing are a lot more -- a lot -- they are far more guilty of insurrection than Donald Trump.

Oh, so THAT'S why the Senate will acquit Trump. It's actually the Democrat's fault.

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Jesus Christ. Is Fox seriously gaslighting THAT hard? They get up in arms when people riot and destroy property without harm to human lives (aside from a violent police response, often inciting the riots in the first place), but when GOP Cultists violently invade the U.S. capitol, that's "marching peacefully and patriotically"?

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Samurai7 posted...

I've never understood how people believe this when it's never played out as directly proportional to inflation in any instance of minimum wage being instituted or increased

It's simple math. If you pay burger flippers $15 an hour, you devalue middle class manufacturing and other jobs in the middle class range. If they raise their wages as much as the minimum wage, then nothing has changed as the wage increases across the board would absolutely lead to inflation. If they don't raise the wages, their jobs are devalued and the slight increases eat into them. The Democrats have been feasting on the middle class at the expense of the lower class forever. It's why middle class medical is a shit show now. Now you are coming after their incomes also.

At least the Republicans just give everyone equal crumbs while giving to the rich unlike the Dems that wanna make everyone but the rich equally poor.

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I'm so glad we have famed economist Corrik on hand to set us straight whose wise judgement is beyond reproach.

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If anything they should lower the minimum wage. If people are willing to work jobs for whatever wage, they should be allowed to. The effort these fast food restaurants put into arguing for $15 hour wages would easily net them a $15 hour job if they invested that same effort. The problem is that people want to be paid more for jobs that people willingly take at that wage. It's just laziness.

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I love how you say willingly take when it's take or die.

corrik, 15 dollars is pitifully low for a manufacturing job, and is nowhere near "middle-class"

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DeepsPraw posted...

corrik, 15 dollars is pitifully low for a manufacturing job, and is nowhere near "middle-class"

Many manufacturing jobs pay that or less, first of all. Secondly, I said if devalues them. Even if you make $25/hr. Your work is devalued when you are only making $10 more an hour for a harder job with more responsibility, possible safety issues, and such... Coupled with price increases of whatever nature.

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Corrik7 posted...

Many manufacturing jobs pay that or less, first of all. Secondly, I said if devalues them. Even if you make $25/hr. Your work is devalued when you are only making $10 more an hour for a harder job with more responsibility, possible safety issues, and such... Coupled with price increases of whatever nature.

It sounds like those jobs should be paid more as well then. And someone was talking about price freezes, so that would prevent inflation, wouldn't it?

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Sounds like you guys are talking to Corrik.

https://youtu.be/jZ_Ui3PojK8

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I like how people pretend there are an infinite number of jobs out there for people to take, as if they're just too lazy to work at a higher paying job instead of there being a limited number of jobs.

"Let's lower the minimum wage, so as not to devalue people, except the people making that wage. Because who cares if they starve to death and can barely make it? Maybe they shouldn't be so lazy."

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In Corrik's ideal world everyone would be making 90k a year at some kind of coal/steel/manufacturing job and no one would have anything to buy with the money they are earning because there wouldn't be any restaurants or grocery stores or starbucks or retail outlets. Just rich people starving and freezing to death because there are no employees to sell them food or clothes. Everyone who was previously providing food and clothes said to themselves "corrik's right, I'll just get a REAL job instead so I'm not poor" and because there are an infinite number of those jobs available it was an easy switch!

I think we just solved the economy guys.

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I remember I used to work at my college's campus bookstore. I started working there in high school because of familial connections, and wound up working there for like, ten years total? And I remember that at one point, I had gotten a very slight raise due to my longevity with the company. Soon thereafter, there was a minimum wage increase, and I found myself making the same money that new employees were making. New employees that I, as a veteran employee, was forced to train to do their fucking jobs. It pissed me off. It sucked and made me feel worthless since I was valued the same as new people who had no idea what they were doing.

So I do GET the mindset of people feeling undervalued by the minimum wage increase, but there are really two lines of thought you can go down. A. I could be pissed at the newbies and think they're undeserving. I was making exactly what I deserved, and therefore they deserve less than me. Or B. I could be pissed at the company and think they're screwing me over. I deserve to make more because I've been around so much longer than the newbies.

Option A just keeps the poor at each other's throats by telling the veterans "Hey, those fuckers don't deserve to match you", and telling the newbies "Hey, those fuckers think you're worth less than them".

Option B aligns the poor by giving the newbies a living wage so they're not fighting over table scraps, and helps the veterans by letting them know who's REALLY keeping them down.

It's not unlike our country's long history of systemic racism, designed to make poor whites feel like it's okay that they're poor so long as black people have it worse than them. Give an oppressed class another oppressed class to hate and they won't turn against the oppressors.

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I feel like all of these issues is why I think UBI is such a better option. It sidesteps all of this. People can work for whatever they want to work for

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Which is why the raise should have went up alongside the pay increase so you'd still making two dollars more (or whatever) like you were and it's only your boss (and everyone's) boss to blame, not the newbies just trying to survive. Just like the concept of foreigners stealing our jobs. Those jobs are not being stolen, they are being taken from you by your boss and freely given out.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Which is why the raise should have went up alongside the pay increase so you'd still making two dollars more (or whatever) like you were

Exactly. The hand-wringing over "everything will be more expensive" is like...so what? Cost of living has already FAR outpaced take home wages since the Reagan years, so I can't imagine prices would rise THAT much more to maintain the same level of inequality.

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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but apparently the Senate just passed the Covid budget resolution that'll allow them to bypass the filibuster when voting for the actual bill... but that vote on the actual bill won't take place until after the impeachment trial.

The trial is important, but it's not have superceded $1400 checks and the expansion of unemployment. This seems like Dems just prioritized things terribly. =/

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, at least in thinking there's some priority order delaying the COVID relief.

What the Senate just voted on was starting the reconciliation process - they did this because otherwise they would have required 60 votes to pass the final bill instead of 50 + VP. However, the reconciliation process takes longer (as demonstrated that everything the Senate has done up to this point was just to start it) than if they had 60 votes (or killed the filibuster.)

What happens now is that COVID relief goes to the House where they draw up the exact specifics of the bill as per the specifications and restrictions that the reconciliation process gave them (which are less than you may think. I didn't see the panic spread here but I saw a lot of doom and glooming elsewhere over a bunch of nonbinding resolutions passed during vote-a-rama yesterday that either had no legal force or literally resolved to "It's Bernie Sanders's call".)

That's gonna take them a bit of time (but no longer than two weeks) whereupon it will head back to the Senate and they'll take some time on it and then possibly to conference if there are differences the two need to hammer out. All told this is basically a pretty expedited timeline it's just the US government is intentionally designed to be slow as fuck so this still means that we might not see final passage and signed by Biden until early/mid March.

The impeachment trial isn't, or shouldn't, slow them down at all. They're perfectly capable of conducting both the trial and regular business at the same time by splitting the day up if they need to. I know one concern and argument for the House delaying transmitting the articles of impeachment back when McConnell was running things was the possibility he might then try to craft the trial rules such that they could not do that but that's no longer an issue.

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The choice argument has always been complete garbage. Until FDR children were exploited to work. The greed of big companies always whines. Higher wages is good for literally everyone. Corrik as usual is very ignorant about economic issues.

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It rises anyway.

I was literally just trying to find that image and couldn't. Thanks!

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Guys guys, you don't understand. Corrik knows in his bones that raising the minimum wage is a bad thing. You can't put a price on that level of certainty so stop trying to convince us with your facts and your logic.

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I think anybody with a functioning brain knows they're being dishonest when they make the "Raising minimum wage will increases prices!11oneeleven" argument but that's not gonna stop them

That's why it always leads into the
"Prices increase anyway and so by not raising minimum wage you're just making sure certain people can't afford anything anymore."
"Then they should get a better job!"

bullshit

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Thanks for clarifying, xp. If that is indeed the case, then I was wrong to pin ineptitude on the Dems, though I'm sure millions still will and Fox News will run with that story for weeks.

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PerfectChaosZ posted...

It rises anyway.

This is literally such a stupid argument it's hilarious.

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