Board 8 > Smash Bros competitive community is getting #MeToo'd

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'm just so lost on what you're actually trying to accomplish, here.

You start with "Is what he did really that bad?"
Then your argument basically becomes "We've all molested somebody, right? C'mon, guys."
And now it's turning into "Actually you're wrong for shaming him."

Meanwhile, you can't muster anything but "Okay you're right what he did is bad BUT" against the guy that actually did it.

You say you're not trying to defend him or what he did, but you keep making posts that are defending/minimizing what he did while trying to turn it around on us.

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StealThisSheen posted...

I'm just so lost on what you're actually trying to accomplish, here.

You start with "Is what he did really that bad?"
Then your argument basically becomes "We've all molested somebody, right? C'mon, guys."
And now it's turning into "Actually you're wrong for shaming him."

Meanwhile, you can't muster anything but "Okay you're right what he did is bad BUT" against the guy that actually did it.

You say you're not trying to defend him or what he did, but you keep making posts that are defending/minimizing what he did while trying to turn it around on us.

smells like projection of his own conscience / attempting to justify his own past actions to me


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Panthera posted...

Okay, so what do you want, no one to criticize their behavior so they never face consequences and the victims just get to eat shit forever because if you take away the public response to someone like Mangs for example, that's literally what happens?

Genuinely don't know what I want! I'm a janitor on a message board about video game contests from the late 90s. I'm probably not the guy who's going to solve this problem. I don't like the idea of Mangs continuing to be an asshole and I don't like this. Countless times I think third options have arisen from people who know more about retribution than I can understand, and I'm kinda just watching this go down. This is really just me trying to get a pulse on you guys and what is the actual mindset of this topic.

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changmas posted...

much of it is limiting the abuse that that specific person is capable of committing in the future. it's certainly going to be harder for somebody like rapist brock turner to assault someone else because anywhere he shows up, people will say "hey, isn't that convicted rapist brock turner?" and be on guard at his every action

You're also showing any of their young fans that their behavior is not acceptable. And if you let things slide, you run the risk of normalizing the behavior and sending the opposite message.

but then sometimes it backfires and the dude becomes a celebrity instead for some reason

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so my mind does this thing too where I go "this is definitely true 100%... ... .. but..." This could be one of those instances where you know what everyone else saying is 100% right but your mind is just being your villain with that "but". It knows how to make you feel slightly uncomfortable to make you question yourself

that is to say, you know 100% there is a difference between ignoring consent and anything lesser, but your mind is trying to tell you "they're the same and you're shit"

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StealThisSheen posted...

I'm just so lost on what you're actually trying to accomplish, here.

Literally just trying to work out this situation and how I feel about it through conversation! I know its hard for you to be not be contrary to me, but you're going to to have to deal with this one because I haven't really developed any solid stances yet!

I mean there are some solid stances I have but I dont think you're going to find anything terribly objectionable!

-mangs is an asshole
-Im an asshole
-people should be forgiven
-people deserve justice
-internet mobs are kinda creepy but at this current moment one of our most effective tools for routing out problematic behavior
-empathic solutions lead to effective answers

Like all that stuff is kinda "no duh" but its hard to get it all in my brain at the same time

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The way this argument has gone, it basically comes off like at some point in your life, whether it's because of how you were raised, the culture around you, or what have you, you've come to accept this kind of behavior and see it as, if not acceptable, atleast "not that bad." You've even, admittedly, taken part in this kind of behavior, yourself. So now that you're seeing so many people come out against this behavior and call it out, you're naturally getting defensive, whether you mean to or not. Hence why you see the behavior getting called out as some kind of attack. You see people calling out the behavior and shaming it as more abnormal than the behavior itself, so you're trying to internalize stuff from a viewpoint of seeing that as the bigger issue than the crime itself.

Which I'm not going to pry on, and I'm not going to judge. I'm just trying to figure out potentially why you see this bigger issue behind the people shaming, while we're like "Uh... Duh?"

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idk I feel like Santa's mostly just trying to be introspective and people are jumping down his throat because whenever stuff like this comes up, people have blinders on and assume anything other than strict condemnation is supporting abuse

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

idk I feel like Santa's mostly just trying to be introspective and people are jumping down his throat because whenever stuff like this comes up, people have blinders on and assume anything other than strict condemnation is supporting abuse

To be fair, it's hard not to when the initial replies are "Is what he did really that bad?" and "C'mon, everybody does it."

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I'm not trying to say that's a reason to keep jumping on him, I'm just saying those kinds of things are naturally going to make people think you're defending it.

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Thats definitely a way to look at it, but I assure you the defensive nature isn't aimed toward myself. I genuinely have made peace with all the shit Ive done and accept the consequences that come with it. At the same time I hope those consequences aren't "everything I say in private to be posted publicly" I'm personally fine with looking like an idiot asshole, I do it on board 8 every day. But a public shaming involves more than me, its an attack against anyone who has ever given me trust and love, regardless of whether I personally wronged them. It sends waves of betrayal and shame against everyone whos knows me and their only crime was to believe in me. In a way things we say in private between friends is the same as the crazy thoughts that go through our heads. Sometimes we say things for the shock value just to get a laugh, other times we make a stance against a bad issue because we're ignorant. When these moments become stuck in time, context is lost and its hard to see what the truth is.

Anyway now I'm getting existential but I think that helped me see what I don't like about this type of thing.


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I don't think Santa ever said "C'mon, everybody does it." If he did, I'll be proven wrong, but if he didn't, then you're intentionally misrepresenting his words to make him sound worse than he is.

I mean, I skim back a quick second and see this:
Santa: "What he did was fucked up."
Somebody else: "WHY IS SANTA DEFENDING HIM"

???

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I think my initial tone was actually a bit accusatory. Like I genuinely think sexual mistakes are a lot more common than people are letting on, and statistically speaking at least one of the people who are saying "its abuse pure and simple" have probably done worse.

But as I argue Im also learning a lot of people haven't whiffed it as hard as I have sexually so who knows. I'm willing to accept I might be the worst offender in this topic

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

I don't think Santa ever said "C'mon, everybody does it." If he did, I'll be proven wrong, but if he didn't, then you're intentionally misrepresenting his words to make him sound worse than he is.

He very much initially tried to downplay it as not a big deal/something "most" people do. I'll recant the "everybody," that was hyperbole.

SantaRPidgey posted...

This is me just trying to figure out what the actual mechanics are of people sitting around a message board shaming a youtuber they hardly ever watched for doing a thing most people have done.

SantaRPidgey posted...

Hey earnestly asking this, but I can't imagine knowing two people in my life who weren't in the exact same situation as mangs and goose. I think I've probably even been in Mang's shoes sometime in my younger years. Is being in this situation really that hanus?

I'm not trying to say he wasn't an asshole, same way I'm not saying I'm not an asshole, but this seems to be a pretty paint by numbers scenario with unrequited love.

SantaRPidgey posted...

Yeah I agree its wrong, but its a human situation. Have we reached a point in humanity where its unacceptable to be wrong?

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That said, I can actually respect the way his argument has evolved since, atleast, even if I don't fully understand it, since if he were just trolling or anything he wouldn't be giving the personal details he has.

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Man its interesting to see how my perspective changed as I went on with this topic! The human mind is weird, legit didnt even notice it.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I think my initial tone was actually a bit accusatory. Like I genuinely think sexual mistakes are a lot more common than people are letting on, and statistically speaking at least one of the people who are saying "its abuse pure and simple" have probably done worse.

My biggest issue with what you're saying is that you keep using language like 'mistake'. You can downplay any action by saying it was a mistake.

Is groping someone while they're asleep after they specifically asked you not to a 'mistake'? Sure, I guess, but that language puts it on the same level as being caught stealing the last cookie from the cookie jar. I'd prefer calling it premeditated sexual assault, because that's exactly what it is.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

In a way things we say in private between friends is the same as the crazy thoughts that go through our heads. Sometimes we say things for the shock value just to get a laugh, other times we make a stance against a bad issue because we're ignorant. When these moments become stuck in time, context is lost and its hard to see what the truth is.

Yeah but the vast majority of these cases are not random off hand offensive jokes said in private, they're cases of actual sexual abuse where private stuff is brought up primarily to show that the person being accused did indeed behave in an inappropriate way to the person accusing them. I don't understand why you're trying to respond to talk of sexual harassment and assault by saying "but like people say things in private". What is the relevance?

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I mean I didnt read all of it, but a lot of private statements I saw were mangs saying problematic things jokingly in private chats. I've seen this in other metoo threads too. People come forward with snipets of assholism and champion them as part of the bigger picture.

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I'm pretty sure Santa being a sexual abuser apologist is nothing new. Scummy shit, but I'm not surprised. He's not worth the time.

Anyway guys I think Ive examined this pretty much as much as I can do for one night! Thanks to everyone for challenging my kneejerk thoughts. This one topic is probably the greatest example of board 8 being productive for me.

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I mean he's literally still calling it a "sexual mistake" as of 5 minutes ago. He's been going out of his way to downplay it for this entire topic.

A week ago he was defending Fchamp for posting #WatermelonLivesMatter because he thought he was just making a Gallagher joke in 2020.

He's made it pretty obvious how he feels about cancel culture so excuse me for not giving him the benefit of the doubt when he's "internalizing his thoughts" against another piece of shit online a week later.

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In my friend circle we make Gallagher jokes way more than we make racist watermelon jokes!

Thats my biggest defense! I already admitted to being wrong and being an idiot about that specific issue. You'll have to wait a few weeks before I admit I was an idiot in this one.

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Okay but like he literally admitted to a form of sexual assault and likely did more than he claims in that matter so who even cares that a few private things have been shared (when a lot of the offensive stuff he said isn't even particularly private or is entirely public anyway)? It's not like people don't have a right to choose not to associate with someone who acts in a way they dislike, but you can put that entirely aside because it's largely just tacked on to the actual issue with him. Like you're just bringing up the most minor stuff to say how "its hard to see what the truth is" in a case where the truth is he literally admitted to sexual abuse so I don't see how it's hard to see that or why you think the discussion can't just focus on that

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Yeah like I said you're absolutely right! There's something ineffable that bothers me about the situation but I dont think Im figuring it out today.

Im going to go charge my phone and eat watermelon and play animal crossing

Edit: unintentional callback, I am literally going to eat a literal watermelon which I bought that has nothing to do with my feelings on cancel culture

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SantaRPidgey posted...

But as I argue Im also learning a lot of people haven't whiffed it as hard as I have sexually so who knows.

jokes on you, b8ers dont have sexual encounters

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StealThisSheen posted...

He very much initially tried to downplay it as not a big deal/something "most" people do. I'll recant the "everybody," that was hyperbole.

I guess I just read it as him explaining his mental position and asking for clarification on other peoples' mindsets so he understood the situation more.


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why not both

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because intent doesn't quite work that way

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I don't want to read another post from Santa in this topic until he says "What Mangs is accused of doing here is sexual assault."

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I guess I just read it as him explaining his mental position and asking for clarification on other peoples' mindsets so he understood the situation more.

Later on he started to do that, yeah, but there's not really any other way to read "people on a message board shaming him for something most people do," and the like, which is why things started off hostile and (kinda?) cooled down a bit as it went on.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

This brings me to my original point, have you guys never made a big mistake despite you "knowing better?"

i absolutely have.

so...?

i assume your point wasn't "you guys are hypocrites for shaming mangs because you've also made big mistakes." but i have no idea why you kept harping on the "you guys have ALSO made big mistakes right???" point in this topic.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I mean I didnt read all of it, but a lot of private statements I saw were mangs saying problematic things jokingly in private chats. I've seen this in other metoo threads too. People come forward with snipets of assholism and champion them as part of the bigger picture.

i actually read the entire mangs/soleil chatlog (yes, this is how little of a life i have) and to me, mangs comes off EXTREMELY creepy and rapist-y throughout the whole thing. i don't think he's "joking" or "being firty" - i think his behavior is 100% wrong. this could be where the disconnect between you and the other people in this topic was; perhaps you read it too and thought "man i don't see what the big deal is he's just innocently flirting."

i do agree with your "you can always take a quote from a private chat out of context to make someone look bad" point (which you made in a different post), but i don't think this is the time and place to make that particular point. like, the thing we have here is a super long chatlog. it's not one line of text written by mangs that was taken out of context.

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youtube keeps recommending me mangs videos now

maybe it already did and maybe I even watched them but not enough to recognize the name

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This isn't rocket science, no means no. That's some 101 type shit
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SantaRPidgey posted...

I'm just curious, have you guys honestly never been in a situation where you fucked up really bad and hurt someone?

I've done terrible things to other people. I have hurt them both intentionally and unintentionally, yes. I am definitely not a good person. I think generally, if someone believes they are a good person, they are probably incredibly delusional. Society demands that we wear masks and condemn all bad behavior, even behavior that we ourselves have engaged in. People like me, who don't wear a mask, are incredibly rare.

For a bit of perspective, it's very likely that one of two things is going on in this topic. They are listed in no particular order. THEY ARE NOT LISTED IN ANY PARTICULAR ORDER. I am not saying that either of these things is more likely than the other. I am not making any statement about how likely either scenario is. And, to reiterate one last time, THEY ARE NOT LISTED IN ANY PARTICULAR ORDER. Don't worry, despite me saying this about five different times, I'm sure I'll also get accused of defending rapists by someone who I just coincidentally happened to insult five years ago and still hasn't let it go. Here are the two things:

1. The kind of sexual misconduct and sexual assault that Santa describes is indeed relatively common, which is supported by university studies about how likely a woman is to be sexually assaulted -- the fact that most people are victimized by abusers that they know (rather than by strangers) -- and the reality that many victims of sexual assault never come forward. Now I think Santa has confused the issue here a bit, both by using hyperbolic language, and by flipping the perspectives. I wouldn't say that "most" people have committed sexual assault, but I would say that "many" people have been victims of sexual assault. This doesn't mean that every person, or even most people, are abusers. But I do think abusers are fairly common, more common than we're often willing to accept. This has created a WIDE gap of misunderstanding by which Santa, and the other group, are no longer even discussing the same issue. Are we talking about whether it's a common occurrence? Or are we talking about how serious these acts of sexual misconduct are? You can't conflate the two issues and accuse Santa of defending rapists, especially when the case in question is about sexual assault -- not rape. And yes, there is at least one instance of someone calling Mangs a 'rapist' in this discussion. So bear in mind that the hyperbole goes both ways. What Mangs did was really bad, but it was not rape. Words exist for a reason. To summarize this point, there is the possibility that people in this topic are simply wearing their "masks" and saying that this behavior is unacceptable when, in truth, they have done similar things in the past but would never admit it. This seems to be what Santa is arguing for. It's not that he thinks that sexual misconduct is okay, but rather, he believes that people are being dishonest about whether they've actually done sexually inappropriate things.

Unfortunately, this line of thought and discussion is not very useful to the average board 8 user. This is not the place to have a productive discussion. By even addressing the idea that there has been a misunderstanding, or trying to discuss the nuance of a very complicated issue, I will immediately be flagged as "minimizing" these issues and discarded from the conversation.

1. (Yes, the automatic bullet system on GameFAQS is so bad that not only does it automatically force me to use the numbered list format, but it changes my 2 to a 1. Fucking genius, Allen.) Secondly, there's also the very real possibility that Santa's experiences have caused him to normalize behavior which is highly uncommon. I think we can all agree that sexual misconduct is bad, and even Santa has said this multiple times. But, to the best of my ability to actually follow this clusterfuck of a conversation, it seems like a large part of this talk is actually about how COMMON these issues are. If Santa thinks that "most" people engage in this type of behavior, it very likely results from normalization that he has experienced in his life. There are a LOT of negative behaviors and actions that were normalized in my childhood, and I was still at the age of 24 or 25 figuring things out which were obvious to most people but, to me, I always just thought "this is how things are done." In fact, I'd say that most people normalize negative behaviors to some extent. The big difference is between those who figure out their behavior, and correct it, and those who continue to do the same bad shit over and over because they believe that they can do no wrong -- and they won't listen to any criticism of their behavior. I've gotten a bit off track but, to summarize this point, this outcome explains the position best of the people who are arguing against Santa. That his behavior, and Mangs behavior, is NOT as commonplace as Santa thinks that it is -- that he only believes this because he has normalized the behavior, and that everyone in this topic is being honest when they say that none of them have ever engaged in sexual misconduct.

As with any post I make, I doubt this will endear the average board 8 user to me in any way, shape, or form. But I do think that if Santa reads this post it might better help him understand the thought process of the people arguing against him, and the general flow of this conversation as a whole.... not that it will help him avoid getting eviscerated in the future, but, well, yeah. Nothing is going to stop that. Santa could stop posting on board 8 for 10 years, come back, and in the very first topic he posts in someone would go "yeah it's no surprise that Santa is still a piece of shit, I've always known he was terrible." Welcome to board 8.


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we get that it's not in any particular order - you didn't have to have two number 1's to support that point! (yes, I can read I just wanted to be flippant).

and the conclusion you draw in your second number 1 is more like what I think is happening, except Santa's word choice of "misconduct" is a willful softening of the actual issue, which is sexual assault.

MariaTaylor posted...

Society demands that we wear masks and condemn all bad behavior, even behavior that we ourselves have engaged in. People like me, who don't wear a mask, are incredibly rare.

We're in the middle of a pandemic, please wear a mask.

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Not wearing a mask isn't incredibly rare around where I live.

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People who dont wear masks at this point are already convinced not to and wont change their minds unless like, their child gets Rona. Doubly so for people who aren't afraid to openly say they are a bad person (no shade intended)

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colliding posted...

and the conclusion you draw in your second number 1 is more like what I think is happening

that's good to hear. since I wrote that with the intent of taking the thoughts of people on this side, and writing them in a way that Santa could understand better. if this thought process does resonate with you, then I think it's at least a decent representation of that side of the argument.

Leonhart4 posted...

Not wearing a mask isn't incredibly rare around where I live.

GTM posted...

People who dont wear masks at this point are already convinced not to and wont change their minds unless like, their child gets Rona. Doubly so for people who aren't afraid to openly say they are a bad person (no shade intended)

.... okay.

I thought Leon was just being silly and making a pun, and maybe that is the case, but based on GTM's response I guess I need to clarify something. I am not talking about wearing a literal mask. I'm talking about people putting on an act.


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No I misread. My bad

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I have obtained my Persona

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I thought it was funny that people were running with your mask metaphor so I let it go

https://twitter.com/LoopBarnard/status/1282009818455310336

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wear a mask loser

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NeoElfboy posted...

I haven't had the heart to check that topic. Sadly I'm not too surprised, that board has a major problem with misogyny. It saddens me.

Panthera posted...

Don't check the topic about it on the Switch board then. And definitely don't check the comments on his community post on his channel. Three Houses board has if anything been one of the less shitty places, and that's saying something with how much that topic has made me want to punch something

Grimlyn posted...

christ I went to check and you weren't kidding, what a fucking hellhole

just constant and complete focus on victim blaming, straight-up calling the victim a whore, the female TC the c-word... all in posts from yesterday that somehow remain unmoderated what the fuck

There isn't anything wrong nor misogynistic about defending yourself and avoid being used by a creep. I applaud such people who keep themselves away from danger. Do none of you believe in preventive measures?

There's a difference between "there are steps somebody can take to defend themselves" and "it's your fault if somebody attacks you"

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It's also very difficult when you're in the minority (the only girl in the room, one of the youngest etc) and you're constantly being concerned if you're fitting in. There's power dynamics in play there.

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Nintendogs posted...

There isn't anything wrong nor misogynistic about defending yourself and avoid being used by a creep. I applaud such people who keep themselves away from danger. Do none of you believe in preventive measures?

Saying that women who talk about this kind of thing are all lying whores and that there's no reason to hold sexual harassment and assault against someone is kind of bad, fyi. Not sure why you assume that's not what we think is disgusting, which is extra weird since one of those posts specifically cites that stuff and yet you ignore it in favour of thinking we're all complaining about something no one mentioned...?

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