Board 8 > Smash Bros competitive community is getting #MeToo'd

(+) Yeah! (+)

HE
MOLESTED
A
GIRL
WHILE
SHE
WAS
SLEEPING

Why are you defending him?

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I mean, it depends what your definition of "fuck up" is.

What he did being fucked up does not mean it's just a "fuck up." He didn't do it on accident. He intentionally did it despite knowing she didn't want it and even promising he wouldn't. That's the difference.

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You're being so vague that I am unwilling to agree with what you're saying. It makes me suspicious of what kind of thing you mean when you say "fucked up really bad and hurt someone"

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Like, if your definition of "fuck up" includes molesting a girl in her sleep despite knowing she specifically didn't want it, then no, I've never fucked up like that.

To me, a "fuck up" implies doing something on accident/unintentionally.

It does not include intentionally doing something you know is wrong.

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I def cuddled with a girl while she was sleeping in similar context if you would like to use that. In the scenario I remember the cuddle was welcomed wholeheartedly and celebrated so to speak but it certainly could have turned out another way. I also imagine I was also simarly manipulative and pushy with other girls who had boyfriends in my younger years. I genuinely cant remember specific situations because I dont/didnt revisit it too often (it was ages ago in my mind) until the metoo movement, it's something that I would like to feel I grew out of but I couldn't tell you why or how (maybe just libido dying down in old age?)

In any situation when my dick has done the thinking Ive made very dumb mistakes that I "should" have know better than to make. I've apologized to those people and we've remained friends and as far as I know it's fine. It is possible that these situations may be looked at with a modern lens and the people involved might turn from forgiving to resentful as they view me not as a dumb teenager who made honest mistakes but part of the system of silenced sex crime.

You all seem to be okay vilifying these people so I'm wondering if my experience is that unique or if theres an element of hypocrisy here.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

In the scenario I remember the cuddle was welcomed wholeheartedly and celebrated so to speak but it certainly could have turned out another way.

Okay so it's not quite the same considering this guy DID NOT HAVE CONSENT.

Imagine being so adverse to the entire concept of cancel culture that you have to defend literal rapists. Some people actually deserved to be cancelled so maybe get that in your head.

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Santa was GGer, not sure why you're surprised.

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I wasnt a GGer! I still dont fully understand what gamer gate was! I think it was about sexists hating game reviewers?

skullbone posted...

Okay so it's not quite the same considering this guy DID NOT HAVE CONSENT.

I also didnt have consent, it was given to me after.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I def cuddled with a girl while she was sleeping in similar context if you would like to use that. In the scenario I remember the cuddle was welcomed wholeheartedly and celebrated so to speak but it certainly could have turned out another way.

I mean, if youre implying you didnt have consent beforehand thats definitely sketchy, BUT its not nearly on the same level as this Unless:

1) did said girl specifically tell you before she would not welcome physical contact?

2) did you unambiguously promise not to touch her and then do it anyway?

These are not minor details, these are KEY elements of the incident. If they did not apply to your situation than you are drawing a major false equivalency and if you continue to ignore this Im going to have to conclude you are intentionally posting in bad faith.

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Oh, sorry then. I was like...100% sure but it's been a long time. Must be mixing you up with someone else.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

You all seem to be okay vilifying these people

Are you saying it's wrong to "vilify" somebody that quite literally didn't just not ask for consent, but EXPLICITLY did not have consent, and did it anyway?

Because if that's your stance, then I think you need to take a look at your life and figure out why you think that.

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redrocket posted...

1) did said girl specifically tell you before she would not welcome physical contact?

I mean not explicitly but def implied! You have to remember this was an era of extreme slut shaming to the extent it was taboo for a woman to explicitly say she wanted sex. So people who earnestly didnt want sex and girls who did were using the same lines. And the two groups were not communicating very well.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I mean not explicitly but def implied! You have to remember this was an era of extreme slut shaming to the extent it was taboo for a woman to explicitly say she wanted sex. So people who earnestly didnt want sex and girls who did were using the same lines. And the two groups were not communicating very well.

Did you grow up in the 50s? Are you secretly the oldest member of the Board by far?

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I understand what Santa is trying to get at, but this situation is pretty obvious this dude is a total piece of shit and it's not really the situation to make his point with?

If you are told no and you wait until the person is asleep to fuck them, that's rape. There's nothing else to it.

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And yes, there is a big difference between making a move with nothing having been said and making a "move" after explicitly saying it wasn't going to happen.

If you made a move after telling the girl you specifically wouldn't, it wouldn't matter whether she consented afterwards.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I mean not explicitly but def implied! You have to remember this was an era of extreme slut shaming to the extent it was taboo for a woman to explicitly say she wanted sex. So people who earnestly didnt want sex and girls who did were using the same lines. And the two groups were not communicating very well.

Well, it's still not the same since there was no implication, she flat out told him ahead of time no and even had him promise he wouldn't try anything.

But it sounds like you have experiences of kinda being a scumbag but it worked out okay for you, so your perception of other people being bigger scumbags is heavily skewed.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Are you saying it's wrong to "vilify" somebody that quite literally didn't just not ask for consent, but EXPLICITLY did not have consent, and did it anyway?

You're trying to push me into defending his/my actions, and I'll state it over and over again, I don't defend them. I'm ashamed of them as I hope he is too.

I dont know what the accurate punishment is for something like this, but I do feel like complete exposure of every thing he ever said with twitter as a judge makes me very uncomfortable and feels dystopian.

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redrocket posted...

Did you grow up in the 50s? Are you secretly the oldest member of the Board by far?

This shit was happening in the aughts and you know it. Heck its still happening in many non-american cultures.

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Sure, but I think we are and have been past the point where the girl is supposed to say no when she means yes for a few decades

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If a girl says no that's the end of the fucking story

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Anybody still in the mindset of "no can mean yes" cannot be saved and is a danger to society.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

You're trying to push me into defending his/my actions, and I'll state it over and over again, I don't defend them. I'm ashamed of them as I hope he is too.

I dont know what the accurate punishment is for something like this, but I do feel like complete exposure of every thing he ever said with twitter as a judge makes me very uncomfortable and feels dystopian.

I'm not trying to push you into anything, I'm trying to figure out what your stance is, here. Why are you making the argument you're making, if it's not in part to defend him/the actions?

I'm not sure having his actions outed is a punishment too far, and I'm trying to understand why you think it is.

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Yeah I agree with all of these platitudes. There was a time when I was a young horny teen who looked for the loophole in any rule. I didn't comprehend how bad I could hurt people until I did. Again, I dont want to sound like Im excusing myself. Im trying to be honest with what happened because either

A. Lots of the people I'm talking to in this topic are in the same boat. During the metoo movement the people who were outed were always the angriest shouters of platitudes like "no means no no exceptions" (you can forgive anyone but yourself)

B. People in here got good information at a young age and avoided hurting other people and developed healthy relationships. If this is the case I want to kinda figure out what worldview kept you away from mistakes like this.

Heck when "get an enthusiastic yes" became the new slogan for consent I was definitely confused because I had never known sexual politics to even work that way. I get it nowadays because I've been in the lab experimenting, but I definitely didnt have the tools to come up with that concept on my own.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

During the metoo movement the people who were outed were always the angriest shouters of platitudes like "no means no no exceptions"

Citation needed

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I don't know why you'd give Mangs the benefit of the doubt. The best case scenario for him is that you believe his side of the story entirely (which is not a good idea since he clearly contradicted himself in his efforts to downplay his actions) at which point he still decided to feel up a girl for a while despite knowing she did not want him to under any circumstances. He also has a long pattern of being creepy to girls and trying to lie/mislead about his actions to protect his image. He didn't just misjudge one situation or something, he made constant decisions to engage in creepy and/or manipulative behavior over and over again for years while trying to pressure people into covering for him.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

platitudes like "no means no no exceptions"

I think the fact that you're referring to "no means no" as just a platitude kinda tells where your mindset on all of this is.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Citation needed

I mean I'm talking about personal friends so thats kinda my experience. But hypocrisy is def a thing

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HashtagSEP posted...

I think the fact that you're referring to "no means no" as just a platitude kinda tells where your mindset on all of this is.

I'm not saying its not right. Im saying the single phrase isn't the education needed to understand the nuances of consent.

A manipulator looks at the phrase and thinks "if I can get her to yes, then I'm doing nothing wrong"

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I'm not saying its not right. Im saying the single phrase isn't the education needed to understand the nuances of consent.

A manipulator looks at the phrase and thinks "if I can get her to yes, then I'm doing nothing wrong"

I'd disagree. I think if the first reaction to "No means no" is either "Who cares if she says no," or "How do I make her say yes," it's more on that individual than a failure of education.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Citation needed

I know there's been some men who were very loud about women's issues that ended up being abusers and sexual harassers. I believe it comes from having committed these acts in the past, have seeked help and been told it's wrong, and their understanding that if they speak loud enough on these issues that it helps absolve them of these issues, but they can't really break their old habits and end up continuing what they're doing. A lot of times they never went through formal therapy to overcome those issues they've had.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I'd disagree. I think if the first reaction to "No means no" is either "Who cares if she says no," or "How do I make her say yes," it's more on that individual than a failure of education.

Sure, its hard to think about the effectiveness of education once you've already learned something. Its kind of appalling to consider this with something like consent (because of the implications) but consider it with things like language learning. There are lots of concepts that seem simple in retrospect but took lots of tries for your brain to get it right. In almost any other subject learning, mistakes are celebrated as marks on the road to improvement.

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Maybe so, but doing something despite a very clear "no" to consent isn't a mistake, it's outright choosing not to use what you've learned.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

In almost any other subject learning, mistakes are celebrated as marks on the road to improvement.

I think that maybe has to do with it being more of a moral thing than an academic thing? There are usually going to be more consequences if you screw up the former than the latter. I'll need some time to digest that way of looking at things but my kneejerk is to substitute other violent crimes in there, and "I murdered somebody on the road to learning not to murder people" is kinda hard to sell as a positive. Or even going to the opposite extreme, "I used to steal candy bars" is still kinda "ehhhh" compared to "I used to mess up subject-verb agreement"

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I mean the metoo movement is almost exclusively about people who did the wrong thing and continued to go along with abusers despite them "knowing better" there's more to education then just having a fact in your head. (These two are not equivalent obviously but its the same concept at work)

This brings me to my original point, have you guys never made a big mistake despite you "knowing better?" I don't know when my last big mistake was but I make little mistakes like that almost daily, and thats after a steady road of improvement throughout my life.

Panthera posted...

I don't know why you'd give Mangs the benefit of the doubt

This is what makes my uncomfort with cancel culture so hard to pull out of the aether. I don't really want to defend mangs, I don't even really like his channel because he's always been, surprise surprise, a huge asshole and kind of a mysogynist.

I just am trying to figure shit out really. You all know if and when I have an actual opinion I'll shout it openly the second I think it. This is me just trying to figure out what the actual mechanics are of people sitting around a message board shaming a youtuber they hardly ever watched for doing a thing most people have done.


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SantaRPidgey posted...

This is me just trying to figure out what the actual mechanics are of people sitting around a message board shaming a youtuber they hardly ever watched for doing a thing most people have done.

I mean, it's pretty simple, and it's hard to really put any other way.

This isn't a "mistake" he made. This isn't something most people have done. This isn't "I thought there was consent but there wasn't." This is "There was explicitly no consent but I did it anyway."

We don't have to defend why we're shaming this person, because what he did is objectively wrong and objectively bad.

The fact that you think this is something most people have done and that the problem lies in the people shaming him is definitely much more concerning.

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SantaRPidgey posted...

This is what makes my uncomfort with cancel culture so hard to pull out of the aether. I don't really want to defend mangs, I don't even really like his channel because he's always been, surprise surprise, a huge asshole and kind of a mysogynist.

I just am trying to figure shit out really. You all know if and when I have an actual opinion I'll shout it openly the second I think it. This is me just trying to figure out what the actual mechanics are of people sitting around a message board shaming a youtuber they hardly ever watched for doing a thing most people have done.

This isn't a complicated situation, Mangs has literally admitted to Goose's story being roughly accurate, and while he disputes the details in a way that looks better for him (though he still looks bad regardless), he contradicts himself a few times in an effort to look better so there's little reason to believe his version is more likely to be true than hers. There's a bunch of other stories about him, quite a few of which have a fair bit of evidence behind them. Like, this is a super open and shut case. I don't know what you want if a literal admission of guilt amidst a ton of evidence isn't enough for you.

I also have never done what Mangs did, nor am I someone who never watched his stuff.

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I will grant you that nobody is perfect and we should probably draw a line somewhere before we crucify every person and organization in existence (which I think is what you're trying to articulate?)

This specific instance (based entirely on thirdhand info from this topic, because I don't know these people and haven't looked into the case) seems pretty reasonable to burn the dude over, though. Girl said no, guy did the thing anyway, and at a time she was unable to resist. Right?

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as much as we as a community (and society) are obsessed with dividing a line and polarizing things, there is a lot of nuance to everything, and even though you, santa, are confused and/or playing devil's advocate, yes i've probably made a big mistake despite knowing better, but there are nuances between the things Ive done and the things people being talked about have. so even though they're both "big mistakes" they can still be different

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and I disagree with "cancel culture" and "villifying" people generally, but I also acknowledge I dont know what it's like being promised to not being touched and finding out they've done it anyways in my sleep

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Yeah you guys are all right about what you're saying. Im going to kinda think about it so next metoo topic I can have a louder and more obnoxious opinion. Thanks!

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I also don't think B8 has been a bunch of moral angels either. we're better than these people, but that's a reeaaaally low bar right now

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SantaRPidgey posted...

This brings me to my original point, have you guys never made a big mistake despite you "knowing better?" I don't know when my last big mistake was but I make little mistakes like that almost daily, and thats after a steady road of improvement throughout my life.

there's magnitudes of difference between what most people would consider to be making a "big mistake" in their lives and sexually assaulting someone. you're either being deliberately obtuse here or the mistakes you're talking about making in your life are beyond reprehensible.

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I mean isn't the way we deal with crime and delinquent behavior to view it with empathy? I dont have to steal something to know why someone else might. I don't have a mental need to steal things from stores but my butt itches a lot so I understand compulsive behavior and am sympathetic with it to a point. I can't help someone stop stealing unless I understand the mechanics of why our brain forces us to steal.

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Ok well theres probably the main nugget of disagreement we're at.

I don't think we can solve problems unless we understand what they are. I have a hunch that public shaming doesn't reduce the amount of sexual abusers in the world.

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You're working incredibly hard to try to turn this around on us for some reason

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SantaRPidgey posted...

I mean isn't the way we deal with crime and delinquent behavior to view it with empathy? I dont have to steal something to know why someone else might. I don't have a mental need to steal things from stores but my butt itches a lot so I understand compulsive behavior and am sympathetic with it to a point. I can't help someone stop stealing unless I understand the mechanics of why our brain forces us to steal.

i don't see how petty theft is even remotely comparable to sexual assault. every post you make deliberately minimizes these crimes and acts like they're exactly the same thing as regular mistakes that people make every day.

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I deleted my previous post because I don't think I worded it correctly.

There's only so far empathy should go. You don't have empathy with a murderer or a rapist to the point of "C'mon, guys, you're actually the bad ones for shaming them."

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SantaRPidgey posted...

Ok well theres probably the main nugget of disagreement we're at.

I don't think we can solve problems unless we understand what they are. I have a hunch that public shaming doesn't reduce the amount of sexual abusers in the world.

Okay, so what do you want, no one to criticize their behavior so they never face consequences and the victims just get to eat shit forever because if you take away the public response to someone like Mangs for example, that's literally what happens?

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SantaRPidgey posted...

Ok well theres probably the main nugget of disagreement we're at.

I don't think we can solve problems unless we understand what they are. I have a hunch that public shaming doesn't reduce the amount of sexual abusers in the world.

much of it is limiting the abuse that that specific person is capable of committing in the future. it's certainly going to be harder for somebody like rapist brock turner to assault someone else because anywhere he shows up, people will say "hey, isn't that convicted rapist brock turner?" and be on guard at his every action

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I dont think you're bad for shaming them to be clear. I think my main problem is that it doesn't feel productive? I'm not entirely sure if this particular route we are all going down leads to mangs or his would-be abuser followers into being less of abusers.

I mean it does feel gross and I am getting a little new testament about the whole situation, but really I want to make it clear I'm arguing to figure out my own shit, not to judge or inspect yours.

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