Board 8 > Avengers IW/EG- How satisfied were you with how they ended the MCU? [BEE Week 3]

(+) Yeah! (+)

FAIR WARNING - I promise there will be zero spoilers in the opening posts of this topic series, however everything after that could be Spoiler City. After all, we're exclusively discussing the final moments of some of the most beloved and long running series in the history of popular media... so proceed with caution!

Welcome to Best Ending Ever, the topic series where Board 8 will decide the best (and worst) endings in the history of film, television, literature, and video games. Each week we'll cover a well-regarded or controversial new entry.

For this third week- sorry, I know the topic title is a little off, but I ran out of room. What we're here to discuss is How satisfied were you with the way Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame wrapped up the original era of the Marvel Cinematic Universe?
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Last Week's Result
* Game of Thrones earns an average of 1.65
Over 55% of B8 gave GoT the dreaded "1" rating, quite the fall for what was once the second most beloved TV show on the board. Only 11% countered with "4" ratings and as a result the series might set the low bar in BEE for months to come. Most commentators said that although the back half of S8 was visually stunning and had its high points, too many of their favorites behaved uncharacteristically and overall the ending episodes felt rushed and chaotic.

BEE All Time Rankings
* 3.32 w/ 117 votes - Breaking Bad
* 1.65 w/ 121 votes - Game of Thrones


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They nailed it

I think given the lack of complexity/ambiguity in the characters compared to something like GoT the bar was lower, but still.

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this was a cinematic masterpiece, the likes of which will probably never be seen again

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I went between 3 and 4.

Infinity war is a solid 10/10, while endgame sputtered a bit in some areas

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Endgame was a perfect ending. Infinity War is a bad movie that really only serves to set up Endgame (save for the Thanos+Gamora scenes) but in that sense, as a prologue, it does fit that arc.

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Aecioo posted...

I went between 3 and 4.

Infinity war is a solid 10/10, while endgame sputtered a bit in some areas

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I'm not that big on the Avengers movies compared to some it seems. The first, Infinity War and Endgame are all 7/10 movies for me, though edging towards an 8. They do what they need to do and not much else.

Of the MCU movies I've seen, I prefer Iron Man, Captain America: The First Avenger, and Black Panther to all Avengers movies.

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I definitely have a few quibbles with the way they handled some things but the overall result is still outstanding. All of the lead up to the huge final fight at the end of Endgame was incredible.

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i'm not sure you could ask for much more from a finale to a 10 year, 20+ film build up.

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RyoCaliente posted...

Endgame was a perfect ending. Infinity War is a bad movie that really only serves to set up Endgame (save for the Thanos+Gamora scenes) but in that sense, as a prologue, it does fit that arc.

This is definitely a unique take!

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Aecioo posted...

This is definitely a unique take!

Infinity War is a bunch of action scenes, making a joke about everyone other than Thanos (man did that torture wizard guy ever job HARD) all to build up to a "oh no all these characters who will obviously make it back next movie died oh noooo". Mr Stark I don't feel so good who cares he was a popular actor in a popular film as if they're going to write him out after one film, same for all the BP people and all the Guardians.

Like I said, the only saving grace in that movie is that it serves as a leadup to the drama in Endgame and all the Thanos and Gamora scenes, because there's actual character development and backstory there.

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Infinity War is a good movie to me because it manages to craft a compelling narrative around its disparate plotlines and the fights scenes feel like a superhero cartoon come to life. That being said, none of the scenes in either movie feel all that memorable to me aside from their endings.

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IW is the best one

RyoCaliente posted...

Infinity War is a bunch of action scenes, making a joke about everyone other than Thanos (man did that torture wizard guy ever job HARD) all to build up to a "oh no all these characters who will obviously make it back next movie died oh noooo". Mr Stark I don't feel so good who cares he was a popular actor in a popular film as if they're going to write him out after one film, same for all the BP people and all the Guardians.

Like I said, the only saving grace in that movie is that it serves as a leadup to the drama in Endgame and all the Thanos and Gamora scenes, because there's actual character development and backstory there.

Lets try a (LOL) wrestling analogy. We know (most) of the characters are going to come back, just like we know that wrestling is fake. How good the show is depends not on this knowledge, but on how well the performers sell what is happening in the moment. And in IW, the characters sold their deaths and the reactions to them extremely well.


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By that logic the ending of Wrath of Khan is dumb because you know Spock will come back.

There's a reason most of Endgame is dedicated to un-dusting them.

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It's a meta-argument to not like the movie, not a criticism of the movie itself. In fact, that entire criticism glosses over the nature of an ensemble event movie and doesn't seem to understand how the fuck they work. This is a chapter in a larger, sweeping narrative, and sticking to the same overused formula to provide "development" would result in this album of tracks that all sound exactly the same.

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Infinity War was incredible. Endgame stunk. Time travel is a bad mechanic to introduce, and the tone of the movie is all jokes until the final battle.

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MarkS222222222222222 posted...

and the tone of the movie is all jokes until the final battle.

So a Marvel movie.

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MarkS222222222222222 posted...

Infinity War was incredible. Endgame stunk. Time travel is a bad mechanic to introduce, and the tone of the movie is all jokes until the final battle.

That does not sound like Endgame at all.

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scarletspeed7 posted...

So a Marvel movie.

Do you have some beef with the MCU or something? I still feel like it's bar none the best thing to happen to cinema this century, even if none of the individual films are especially great.

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3

i'm not big on the MCU (watched maybe 5 of the non-avengers movies and didn't see age of ultron) but IW thanos is amazing

endgame was worse in most ways, but the visual spectacle of the final battle was great
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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Do you have some beef with the MCU or something? I still feel like it's bar none the best thing to happen to cinema this century, even if none of the individual films are especially great.

The hell are you talking about? I'm like the biggest proponent in serialized storytelling on this board.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...

Do you have some beef with the MCU or something? I still feel like it's bar none the best thing to happen to cinema this century, even if none of the individual films are especially great.

reading comprehension

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scarletspeed7 posted...

The hell are you talking about? I'm like the biggest proponent in serialized storytelling on this board.

Oh okay this was with that one thread I made a while back where you seemed to have problems with me comparing District 9 unfavourably with Black Panther.

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Infinity War is perfect. Endgame is slightly less perfect but it caps off what was a great 11 year saga

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I disagree. I would've been able to suspend my disbelief a little more if characters had bitten it throughout the movie, but the wipe at the end just made me feel like they were doing it all purely for the drama, not actually advance anybody's story arc.

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The wipe at the end is the opening of the comic storyline they were presenting between the two films, and it absolutely advances the arcs of those left behind. And is there something wrong with doing something purely for the drama? Movies aren't always only about individual characters. In fact, Game of Thrones would have been doing itself a service in its final season if it was more holistic in its approach to worldbuilding, rather than crafting moments for the sake of progressing characters to arbitrary ends.

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I voted a 3

So when it comes to creating really good stakes you need to create a situation that is realistically solvable within the confines of the universe, while still making the opposition equally realistic. Infinity War did this in spades.

However Endgame comes along already carrying the stakes from the previous movie. They don't need to raise the stakes anymore. However by reducing the stones to atoms and killing Thanos. They made their problem unsolvable by realistic measures. So they resort to time travel and explain why it won't cause any problems at all. Leading to half the movie being completely void of stakes, until Thanos shows up in the present. Which brought back the stakes, until Hulk brings everyone back. Leading to the big battle that is literally just cool action moments. The heroes are so much stronger than Thanos' army it's not even close. Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel alone can handle Thanos without the Gauntlet.

It might seem like I hate Endgame, I don't it was a fun time, there was cool character moments and how they handled Tony was perfect, but I feel like it didn't even come close to Infinity War

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@BetrayedTangy well said

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BetrayedTangy posted...

I voted a 3

So when it comes to creating really good stakes you need to create a situation that is realistically solvable within the confines of the universe, while still making the opposition equally realistic. Infinity War did this in spades.

However Endgame comes along already carrying the stakes from the previous movie. They don't need to raise the stakes anymore. However by reducing the stones to atoms and killing Thanos. They made their problem unsolvable by realistic measures. So they resort to time travel and explain why it won't cause any problems at all. Leading to half the movie being completely void of stakes, until Thanos shows up in the present. Which brought back the stakes, until Hulk brings everyone back. Leading to the big battle that is literally just cool action moments. The heroes are so much stronger than Thanos' army it's not even close. Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel alone can handle Thanos without the Gauntlet.

It might seem like I hate Endgame, I don't it was a fun time, there was cool character moments and how they handled Tony was perfect, but I feel like it didn't even come close to Infinity War

There's a good-sized part of my brain that agrees with and doesn't dispute anything you say. But it's also incomprehensibly yelling in my skull about why it agrees and the context and emotions.

Sitting here twenty minutes now trying to put into excited words why you're totally right and why it works. Bear with my splurge.

So, it's outstanding that the Avengers go after Thanos right away and beat up the bad guy. The Avengers are superheroes, and they're going to save the day, but Thanos already destroyed the gems. What is done cannot be undone, and Thor who has had the worst of it and losing more than anyone takes out Thanos and maybe their only hope and that's it. What's done is done.

And time skips forward five years. That's about a dozen MCU movies worth of time dealing with the aftermath and despair and trying to find and build hope in a world that seems utterly lost. Aside from Hulk. There's no fixing this. Tony may be one line of formula from figuring out time travel, but who knows when or how if he hadn't already given up to enjoy being a father and husband. There's no rush, there are no spark to take action. Five years have passed and everyone has settled. They do what they can, but what's done is done.

We the audience know they have to reverse things. We the audience are aware that magic exists, and skipped past all their failed attempts to right wrongs and living in guilt and anger and sadness. They don't. The story ended with Thor decapitating Thanos. It's over.

Except it isn't.

I can completely forgive time travel nonsense as an element because I'm already invested in the knowledge that Dr. Strange foresaw a 1 in ????? of all this working out. The snap has to happen at the right time. Too early or too late, and everything changes. I can't begin to comprehend just how many variables change things for the worse (what if Thanos never taunts Thor, what if they stop the Mad Titan but the glove remains, etc. etc.), but the biggest variable in all of this... is hope.

Too early or too late, and Scott Lang is free (or dusted) and whatever time travel comes next is too soon after the dusting. We see Thor kill Thanos in his grief. Everyone is in horrible emotional pain. Half the world is dead, and hurt is a very real thing. Scott knows time travel could happen, and he and Tony can make it happen. But it wouldn't be good. It wouldn't make things right.

Scott comes back into things five years later. He hasn't aged, he never lived through what everyone else did. He's still hurt and scared and overwhelmed, but he's not nearly as damaged as everyone else that remains in the universe. Aside from Hulk :P. He's an innocent. He's a fresh pair of eyes from a bygone era who still believes they can do something. He brings hope to a world without any. He's... well, he's Captain America, isn't he? Frozen in time from the greatest generation.

He comes in and reminds everyone of a world before the dusting, a world undamaged. He helps them heal and regain some hope just by existing. The man who smiled and called Steve 'Captain America' unironically. The closest we got to Coulson in the post-Avengers cinematic universe. And hey, bonus, time travel is something he thinks he can help with.

This was all about preamble, too. I don't even touch on Thor's continued journey and letting out his grief to his long deceased (or recent in Asgsrdian years) mother. Steve and Tony getting in touch with their pasts and receiving closure/motivation (it's the Survivor loved ones visit). That reversing the dusting doesn't reverse everything: what's happened happened, the five years don't disappear, those that died otherwise are still gone (Vision, Gamora maybe). My brain is back on a ramble.

But it did more than what it had to. It delivered on so many fronts. It showed consequence. There are jokes, there are callbacks, and it's a nice breath between the first and thitd act.

I'm done for now. Again, everything you said is correct, but I don't knock it.

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Oh right! The action at the end!

Yeah, I'm fine with that. Thanos' army was devastating in Infinity War, but he also had huge advantages: the stones in his possession, all the teams broken apart into small scattered subsects across space, complete and assured zealous dedication to his goal. When a past version of himself comes in and joins the fight, he's not been humbled at all by the exits of his daughters, the remaining Avengers have more motivation and drive to finish what they've started, they've suffered the consequences of Thanos winning before, and... well, they succeeded in undoing the damage and now every single hero is there fighting. (Aside from Vision. And Gamora. Most of the Asgardians. Quicksilver. Coulson. Daisy. The Defenders.)

It's definitely a lot of cool action moments. It's just one giant fight. There's much bigger numbers than Wakanda, but without holding back to protect Vision or strategies that prioritize defense and buying time. It's a full offensive and Thanos stepped into something he was not prepared for.

It's mostly catharsis, and it's awesome, and it works overall. I agree it was probably the weakest part of the movie because it was just a constant loud, but it worked incredibly well and so much better than I could've ever dreamed on the big screen. It's insane.

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MarkS222222222222222 posted...

@BetrayedTangy well said

Haha thank you I've spent way too much time discussing it with my friends

Mega Mana posted...

But it did more than what it had to. It delivered on so many fronts. It showed consequence. There are jokes, there are callbacks, and it's a nice breath between the first and thitd act.

Oh yeah it's definitely not a lazy movie, there were some really cool things. Thor decapitating Thanos was really cool, I just don't think it helped the story much.

And seeing how the characters cope in this new world too as most of them have essentially become new characters, plus I adore the haunting atmosphere they give Earth 5 years later.

I think part of my issue might also be how the MCU is framed overall. Since Endgame isn't the final movie they had to leave some loose ends and still play it relatively safe. I'm really excited to see how they go on from here. I think it sort of depends on how Endgame affects the rest of the universe moving forward. It would definitely lighten my opinion on Endgame if done right.


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scarletspeed7 posted...

The wipe at the end is the opening of the comic storyline they were presenting between the two films, and it absolutely advances the arcs of those left behind. And is there something wrong with doing something purely for the drama? Movies aren't always only about individual characters. In fact, Game of Thrones would have been doing itself a service in its final season if it was more holistic in its approach to worldbuilding, rather than crafting moments for the sake of progressing characters to arbitrary ends.

Well yes, but I wouldn't compare Game of Thrones to Marvel in that sense. Tony's guilt at Peter's death didn't hit me in IW. It got to me in Endgame, seeing his interactions with his daughter and him realizing how Peter was reflected in that. That's when I cared about the "Mr Stark I don't feel so good".

In that sense I think Endgame does a much better job at worldbuilding; it needs only a couple of shots and scenes to give the image of how Earth has('nt) moved on post-snap. I love the scenes with Steve and Nat, counterbalanced by Tony living the life as much as it can be lived in that world.

Neither do I agree with diminishing Thanos' and his army in Endgame; they were already a joke in IW. The torture guy got taken out VERY easily by Tony, Strange and Peter and the lady warrior and her friends also jobbed pretty hard in the initial fight with Vision, SW, Cap and Nat and later on against Nat, SW and BP's captain.

I mean, in their 'defense' I also think they were shafted in all the internal arguments between the MCU and Marvel TV. Those final scenes in IW just reek of having been planned to include AoS, Defenders, maybe even Runaways and C&D but those shows were so detached from the movie universe they couldn't get connected.

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Infinity War was a pretty great movie, a solid 8/10. Endgame absolutely sucked both as a movie and as the conclusion for such a long built up story arc. Will probably be one of the few here to vote a 1, but god damn I hate lazy time travel plots. Can't believe they'd have the audacity to throw away an entire franchise just to have some guy invent time travel in like 30 seconds. And the big one sided battle at the end was utterly pointless... as well as them needing to find convoluted reasons to write out major characters like Iron Man and Captain America only because the actors were done with the franchise, not because this is what those established characters would actually do.


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I have two approaches to that: either I say the time travel was handled as well as it could have been, or that contrivances are part of the appeal of that kind of movie to me.

Admittedly Captain America's final choice has been hotly contested. That said, I actually hadn't seen Iron Man or Captain America: The First Avenger when I saw Endgame, so when I watched those two movies afterwards they felt more poignant knowing their titular heroes' fates.

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I think Thanos carries Infinity War. Despite doing horrible things, he doesn't take joy in it. He views it as a burden that he is willing to take for the sake of what he views as the greater good. I like the final shot of the film where he sits to watch the sunrise. I think that, at that moment, he's thinking something like "Was it really worth it?" After being hyped up for so long that he'd ended up becoming a joke, he ended up redeeming himself as a character and living up to the hype. I'll be honest, I was actually rooting for Thanos to win in Infinity War.

He's not as compelling in Endgame where he's more of a generic evil supervillain, but it makes sense because it's not the same Thanos, and it's not his story any more either. It's the Avengers coming back from their lowest point to overcome seemingly impossible odds. Thanos is as quotable as ever though,

Recently, I also found Avengers Memegame on Youtube, an abridged version of the film that adds shitpost meme characters like Shrek, Tobey Maguire Spider-Man and John Wick to the Avengers. I found it funny, and yet I thought the parody version of the Soul Stone scene was somehow sadder than the real one, despite how ridiculous it was (In this version, Master Oogway from Kung Fu Panda sacrifices himself because he can't bear to watch Hawkeye and Black Widow fight over which of them will die, which at least means Black Widow survives in this version). It's a bit like how I preferred the Just a Pancake version of Yen Sid's Big Damn Heroes scene in Kingdom Hearts 3 to the real one. Speaking of which, if you're taking nominations for this series, Kingdom Hearts 3 would be a good finale to do.

Nearly as close to a perfect culmination of a finale that we can hope for.

I'll post my hot take tomorrow (warning, won't actually be that hot), little bump before then to help us get over 100.


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RyoCaliente posted...

Endgame was a perfect ending. Infinity War is a bad movie that really only serves to set up Endgame (save for the Thanos+Gamora scenes) but in that sense, as a prologue, it does fit that arc.

Yikes.


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To actually answer the question - Endgame going with the time-heist took the movie out of the greater narrative. Its emotional plays were all predictable and the movie itself was mostly propped up on those.

However, Ant-Man seeing his daughter was the fucking best moment of the movie and a top Marvel moment.

Infinity War was too good to be topped.

Combine them and you get something between a 3 and a 4.

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It was wonderful, probably the best cinematic experience I've ever had and will not be matched

the only issue I can think of is that there were LOTS of little things they didn't address that I wanted them to

Tony not getting closure with the winter soldier

on screen Captain Marvel/Fury reunion

among other things

but there was SO MUCH that was already there, its forgivable. Just a shame, is all

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My only issue with Endgame is that it should have ended with Nebula passing the gauntlet to Iron Man like a football as a callback to the opening of the movie

I gave it a 3, bordering on 2. Endgame was one of those movies that leaves you smiling when you first walk out of the theater, and then you stop and think back on it, and you realize, y'know, actually, that wasn't so great. I was impressed with the audacity of Infinity War to end the way it did, but Endgame was a time travel heist caper, that culminated in a really over-the-top CGI sequence at the end. As a general rule I believe there are two things that should never be in any kind of fantasy -- prophecy and time travel -- and you better handle them carefully if you're going to go there. Endgame did not. Plenty of moments of badassery and a feel-good epilogue kept me from voting lower.

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azuarc posted...

one of those movies that leaves you smiling when you first walk out of the theater, and then you stop and think back on it, and you realize, y'know, actually, that wasn't so great..

Unrelated, but this was how I felt after watching The Last Jedi.

What is up with people who don't love Endgame hating on it? I personally thought it did what it needed to and little more. Same with Infinity War. Same with the first Avengers, really. I don't think the team-up movies interest me as much as they do most.

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what is up with people who don't like a movie not liking it?

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I meant more such polarization.

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I like how someone mentions Last Jedi and LMS shows up within 20 minutes

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Leonhart4 posted...

I like how someone mentions Last Jedi and LMS shows up within 20 minutes

Yeah but I had already posted in this topic. Plus I wasn't even discussing TLJ.

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IW is pretty damn near perfect. Loved it.

endgame is fine, not great, not terrible.

combined, a 3.5/4 to me

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