Poll of the Day > Do you believe that toxic masculinity is a problem?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Toxic women like Carole Baskin is the problem.

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Joker_X_II posted...

Toxic women like Carole Baskin is the problem.

We haven't all watched Tiger King.
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Clench281 posted...

Do you think gay sons being disowned by their parents and thrown out onto the street is a negative thing? What about them being beat or murdered when it's discovered the son is gay?

Because those happen in part due to parents holding specific views about masculinity, and that a gay son does not confirm to the ideal in their head.

How do you reconcile this? You must either argue it wouldn't be helped by changing views about masculinity (when it certainly would help)... Or, you have to argue it's not a problem. In which case you're just heartless.

So which is it? Wrong or heartless?

Thats not a problem with masculinity, thats just an asshole dad

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Muscles posted...

Thats not a problem with masculinity, thats just an asshole dad

Could be a batshit mom too, no need to discriminate.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

That's toxic religion.

Which people use to define their concept of masculinity, thereby resulting in a toxic perception of what constitutes masculinity, which - hold onto your butts, because this next point is truly mind-blowing - constitutes toxic masculinity. It doesn't matter where the toxicity comes from, it matters that that toxicity manifests itself by defining masculinity for somebody.

Again, toxic masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is inherently toxic. It refers to toxic behaviours that are justified or lauded because they're seen as being masculine. In many cases, homophobia fits that bill.


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adjl posted...

Which people use to define their concept of masculinity, thereby resulting in a toxic perception of what constitutes masculinity, which - hold onto your butts, because this next point is truly mind-blowing - constitutes toxic masculinity. It doesn't matter where the toxicity comes from, it matters that that toxicity manifests itself by defining masculinity for somebody.

Again, toxic masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is inherently toxic. It refers to toxic behaviours that are justified or lauded because they're seen as being masculine. In many cases, homophobia fits that bill.

yeah good post, i agree with this

Look at all soy boys itt arguing about toxic masculinity lulz

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adjl posted...

Which people use to define their concept of masculinity, thereby resulting in a toxic perception of what constitutes masculinity, which - hold onto your butts, because this next point is truly mind-blowing - constitutes toxic masculinity. It doesn't matter where the toxicity comes from, it matters that that toxicity manifests itself by defining masculinity for somebody.

No. What matters is that the batshit ideas of some hillbillies who aspire to be 2000 year old middle eastern peasants are not an acceptable metric for what masculinity is or what's potentially damaging about it. The toxic part is purely the religious rhetoric, it has nothing to do with masculinity. It's toxic Christianity, and I refuse to have it slander my masculinity.

adjl posted...

Again, toxic masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is inherently toxic. It refers to toxic behaviours that are justified or lauded because they're seen as being masculine. In many cases, homophobia fits that bill.

Toxic social norms of backward shitholes aren't my problem. Don't drag all men in to a problem that's localised in your back yard.
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adjl posted...

Again, toxic masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is inherently toxic. It refers to toxic behaviours that are justified or lauded because they're seen as being masculine. In many cases, homophobia fits that bill.

This sounds right, and I believe this; but context matters.

You know that's still a bullshit cop-out excuse when people (other than men) push their narratives.

Because what is "masculinity" and why is it being defined by women and the other alphabet genders that have no stake in being masculine at all?

How can YOU tell what is typically masculine and what is toxic? Just because a male's attributes doesn't jive with a female's sensibilities doesn't mean it's toxic at all. And can you be certain that a female's attributes are oh-so perfect that they have the right to determine and lay judgement on what is considered "toxic"?


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Joker_X_II posted...

basically women trying to re-write the gender norms in their favor telling men what they can and cannot do (even within the boundaries of reason).

Bingo

Thirty-nine people thought it was Opposite Day.

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If the people complaining about a supposed 'problem' can't even properly define it without contradicting each other... then it's 100% grade A bull.

'Toxic masculinity' Is meaningless undefined garbage.

This coming from a person who is hardly classicly masculine.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

The toxic part is purely the religious rhetoric, it has nothing to do with masculinity. It's toxic Christianity, and I refuse to have it slander my masculinity.

You really struggle with the concept of adjectives, don't you? Here, let me spell it out for you:

Water is good.
Sodium cyanide is toxic.
If you put NaCN into water, that water becomes toxic.
That water is now toxic.
Water that does not contain NaCN is not toxic (ignoring other potential toxins for simplicity's sake), despite the existence of toxic water.

Alright, now let's switch some nouns around:

Masculinity is good.
Homophobia is toxic.
When you use homophobia to define masculinity, that masculinity becomes toxic.
That masculinity is now toxic.
Masculinity that is not defined on the basis of homophobia is not toxic (ignoring other potential toxic behaviours for simplicity's sake), despite the existence of toxic masculinity.

Adjectives narrow the definition of their subjects. Applying an adjective to a given noun means you are referring to a subset of that noun which can be described by the adjective, not that you are describing all instances of that noun with it. Your masculinity is not slandered because somebody points out that some people do masculinity wrong. If anything, your masculinity is being slandered by the people who do it wrong and give it a bad name. Get mad at them, not at the people that have exactly the same complaint as you.

Joker_X_II posted...

How can YOU tell what is typically masculine and what is toxic?

By having reasonable, rational discussions with people. Look at the context and see what behaviours are being discussed. Maybe you disagree that the behaviour in question is toxic, in which case you can have a sensible, logical discussion about why you disagree and potentially arrive at some sort of compromise (not so much on the Internet, but it's a nice idea). Maybe you disagree with the presumption that the behaviour is commonly considered masculine, in which case you can have a sensible, logical discussion about the experiences that have led you and your conversation partner to your respective perceptions regarding gender norms.

Some people resist this. If you make a reasonable token effort to engage them and they refuse to actually discuss the matter, then you can safely ignore them and go about your business, knowing that they're just acting butthurt for the sake of acting butthurt. But that goes both ways: Shutting down and immediately devolving into personal attacks and trolling the moment the phrase "toxic masculinity" shows up doesn't help anyone either, and whoever you're talking to can safely ignore you and go about their business, knowing that you're just acting butthurt for the sake of acting butthurt (see: Midget and OhhJa in this topic). If you want to hold any sort of logical high ground and come to any sort of meaningful conclusions about complex sociological topics, you've gotta be willing to put some work into it, regardless of which side you're on.

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Your whole homophobia angle makes no sense.

Masculinity and homosexuality have nothing to do with one another.
Hypermasculine dudebros can be gay.
Super effeminate men can be straight.

The 'masculine' homophobes that hate the effeminate gay men will hate the buff dudebro masculine gay men as well, they aren't homophobic because gay people are 'unmasculine.'
They're homophobic because gay people are 'the other' like every other instance of discrimination in the entirety of human history.

Modern feminists are trying to equate typical discrimination, which comes from EVERYONE, as caused by masculinity when it is not. It's just humanity.

Humanity, men or women, old or young, will always find creative ways to hate others. It has nothing to do with masculinity, if you even know what that is.

What a pretentious load of pseudo intellectual garbage. Also good job completely ignoring the rest of his post that dismantled your entire bullshit stance on this

@adjl

adjl posted...

When you use homophobia to define masculinity, that masculinity becomes toxic.
That masculinity is now toxic.

You see that? That line makes no sense whatsoever.

When you use homophobia to define masculinity?

You know what you get? An incorrect, insane definition of masculinity from a psycho.

I could say you aren't a real woman until you've raised a successful child and that isn't 'toxic feminimity.'

It's just an incorrect opinion from a moron, like you see about anything and everything every day.

You don't need to create blaming buzzwords that vilify whole concepts just because a small part of a group of people you hate have stupid opinions.

adjl is a smart dude, imagine what he could accomplish if he applied himself to something useful other than trying to explain to trolls why they're being trolls.

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adjl posted...

Water is good.
Sodium cyanide is toxic.
If you put NaCN into water, that water becomes toxic.
That water is now toxic.
Water that does not contain NaCN is not toxic (ignoring other potential toxins for simplicity's sake), despite the existence of toxic water.

Alright, now let's switch some nouns around:

Masculinity is good.
Homophobia is toxic.
When you use homophobia to define masculinity, that masculinity becomes toxic.
That masculinity is now toxic.
Masculinity that is not defined on the basis of homophobia is not toxic (ignoring other potential toxic behaviours for simplicity's sake), despite the existence of toxic masculinity.

My water is good.
You put Sodium Cyanide in your water.
My water is still good as you poisoning your water doesn't poison the concept of water.

If you drink your spiked water, you were poisoned with Sodium Cyanide, the medium of water is irrelevant.

Just as you don't need to call water bad, you don't need to call masculinity toxic. It's even worse since it's actually completely separate to masculinity and just using its name fraudulently. Homophobia is not masculine.
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Joker_X_II posted...

Toxic women like Carole Baskin is the problem.

She looks like Kai Winn from DS9

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I think the problem is that half the people in here have a completely different idea of what toxic masculinity is
Its a subset of masculinity, not all masculinity is toxic

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TheSlinja posted...

I think the problem is that half the people in here have a completely different idea of what toxic masculinity is

I feel like that's a problem with the concept itself. There doesn't seem to be a single agreed upon definition, and the ones that I found range from reasonable to flat out insane, but even the reasonable ones are vague.

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Pointman posted...

Masculinity and homosexuality have nothing to do with one another.

lmfao

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Yes

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TheSlinja posted...

I think the problem is that half the people in here have a completely different idea of what toxic masculinity is
Its a subset of masculinity, not all masculinity is toxic

No masculinity is toxic, toxic behaviour in its name is toxic.
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A majority of women receive poor treatment from a minority of men.

It's a perception issue.

Masculinity is not a problem, it's not the "good" guys girls go after.

girls don't go after good guys?

CwebbMichSac4 posted...

girls don't go after good guys?

It depends on your perception of good.

I believe in this case I am assuming he means good guys which are polite, dont overstep any boundaries. The "good" guy is overly cautious because he has been scared into respecting women to a point where he becomes "boring" and predictable.

The bad guy isnt necessarily bad but he isnt afraid to hide his personality for fear of offending the woman. He is a rish taker and will sometimes go against what the societal norms. Bad guy may do things that are inappropriate like make sexual remarks. But hey he's "interesting" and makes the woman feel many different emotions, which is exciting to women.


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Pointman posted...

Your whole homophobia angle makes no sense.

Masculinity and homosexuality have nothing to do with one another.

A whole lot of people would disagree. Many, many people would say that being gay makes a man less masculine, even outside of contexts where that sentiment fuels abusive homophobia. The term "beard" to refer to a closeted gay man's girlfriend/wife is an example of this: beards are considered superficially manly, so the term is used as a metaphor for the practice of doing something seemingly manly to compensate for the perceived unmanliness of being gay.

Is being gay less manly than being straight? Obviously not. But that's not a universal opinion, and therein lies the problem of homphobia manifesting as a toxic idea of what constitutes masculinity.

OhhhJa posted...

Also good job completely ignoring the rest of his post that dismantled your entire bulls*** stance on this

The rest of his post mostly consisted of "who is anyone to define what constitutes toxicity or masculinity?", which I'd say "have a rational discussion in which you share your opinions and try to understand why they have opinions that differ from yours" pretty much covers. I didn't ignore anything. Nobody needs to be an absolute authority, and anyone who is claiming to be such that they refuse to entertain discussion on the matter is an idiot who can be ignored.

Pointman posted...

When you use homophobia to define masculinity?

You know what you get? An incorrect, insane definition of masculinity from a psycho.

Bingo. Calling toxic masculinity a problem simply places emphasis on the need to call out said psychos for what they are. When you say "that's a stupid way to define masculinity," you are attacking an example of toxic masculinity, whether you call it that or not.

Pointman posted...

I could say you aren't a real woman until you've raised a successful child and that isn't 'toxic feminimity.'

It would be, actually, though that's a less common term. Quite simply, "toxic masculinity/femininity" refer to any unhealthy beliefs or attitudes about what it means to be masculine/feminine. That's it. They aren't saying it's bad to be a man/woman, just that it's bad to define it like that. Naturally, there's going to be some room for subjective interpretation there, but that's hardly unique in the English language.

Pointman posted...

You don't need to create blaming buzzwords that vilify whole concepts

That's exactly the opposite of how adjectives work. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand. "Toxic masculinity" doesn't vilify the whole concept of masculinity any more so than "blue car" insinuates that all cars are blue (which is to say not at all for anyone that understands words).

Kyuubi4269 posted...

My water is good.
You put Sodium Cyanide in your water.
My water is still good as you poisoning your water doesn't poison the concept of water.

If you drink your spiked water, you were poisoned with Sodium Cyanide, the medium of water is irrelevant.

Just as you don't need to call water bad, you don't need to call masculinity toxic. It's even worse since it's actually completely separate to masculinity and just using its name fraudulently. Homophobia is not masculine.

You're so close to understanding the point. It's terribly frustrating. I can tell that you actually agree with me, but you're stubbornly refusing to accept a different wording of your opinion because you can't let go of the idea that you're being insulted by the term. I don't know how to help you take that last step.

kind9 posted...

I feel like that's a problem with the concept itself. There doesn't seem to be a single agreed upon definition, and the ones that I found range from reasonable to flat out insane, but even the reasonable ones are vague.

That's a problem that plagues a lot of SJW-isms. Many of them are borne out of a legitimate desire to be nicer to people, and often have a reasonable underlying basis, but because they emerge in such a disorganized fashion and multiple different communities latch on to the nascent terms and apply their own interpretations, the meaning gets muddled to the point where it's hard for anyone looking in to understand what the fundamental concept is. I generally try to dig out that reasonable core concept and explain it as best I can, but a lot of people are hung up on more superficial interpretations for some reason.

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It's like you almost understand that your definition of "toxic masculinity" isn't anything to do with actual masculinity, but still choose to attach the term to it.

Which is the whole point, the term itself was created to vilify men and the concept of masculinity by associating it with unrelated evil by a group of people that hate men.

"Toxic masculinity" is a loaded term that has no relation to what masculinity actually means.

Toxic masculinity is not masculinity, so call it something else, like discrimination or bigotry. You know, terms that already properly define what you're talking about and already exist?

Language matters.

*thinks*

Does it exist? Yes, it does. Is it a problem? Yes, it is.

But it is not as big a problem as the people who blame it for everything and use it as their excuse to act as thought police. See also: Patriarchy.

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adjl posted...

You're so close to understanding the point. It's terribly frustrating. I can tell that you actually agree with me, but you're stubbornly refusing to accept a different wording of your opinion because you can't let go of the idea that you're being insulted by the term. I don't know how to help you take that last step.

Stop using a term that blames masculinity when the problem is toxic people with toxic views. Notice how it's primarily misandrist who love to chant toxic masculinity. They don't blame toxic third world bullshit, they blame what they consider a fundamental part of masculinity. The term is deliberate misandry and you shouldn't be trying to legitimise it.

Using a term that envokes in the unintiated a sense of hostility is not a good place to start from for productive dialogue.
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Yes. A lot of dudes don't understand the difference between toxic masculinity and masculinity. Toxic masculinity is "I don't go between my cheeks to wipe my ass because that's GAY!", etc.

DeathMagnetic80 posted...

Yes. A lot of dudes don't understand the difference between toxic masculinity and masculinity. Toxic masculinity is "I don't go between my cheeks to wipe my ass because that's GAY!", etc.

yeah i kinda agree with you there.

DeathMagnetic80 posted...

Yes. A lot of dudes don't understand the difference between toxic masculinity and masculinity. Toxic masculinity is "I don't go between my cheeks to wipe my ass because that's GAY!", etc.

That's wild homophobia that seems to almost always stem from Christianity. It's toxic religion.
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DeathMagnetic80 posted...

Yes. A lot of dudes don't understand the difference between toxic masculinity and masculinity. Toxic masculinity is "I don't go between my cheeks to wipe my ass because that's GAY!", etc.

Because people like this exist past middle school

OhhhJa posted...

Because people like this exist past middle school

They do. Because they flunked middle school to work in the mines.
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DeathMagnetic80 posted...

Yes. A lot of dudes don't understand the difference between toxic masculinity and masculinity. Toxic masculinity is "I don't go between my cheeks to wipe my ass because that's GAY!", etc.

That's not toxic masculinity though, that's just unrelated bigotry/stupidity

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Meant to vote no. Toxic masculinity doesn't exist.
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Toxic masculinty is basically ridiculing and looking down on people who don't fit into and/or aspire to stereotypically manly things. Stuff like saying "men should like sports" or "men shouldn't cry" and bullying the people who don't live up to that. The idea of the issue isn't supposed to be about telling men they can't enjoy stereotypically manly things or fit into that mold, it's about saying we shouldn't pressure men to think they can ONLY be like that if they want to consider themselves men.

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djunk411 posted...

Toxic masculinty is basically ridiculing and looking down on people who don't fit into and/or aspire to stereotypically manly things. Stuff like saying "men should like sports" or "men shouldn't cry" and bullying the people who don't live up to that. The idea of the issue isn't supposed to be about telling men they can't enjoy stereotypically manly things or fit into that mold, it's about saying we shouldn't pressure men to think they can ONLY be like that if they want to consider themselves men.

A primary advantage of masculinity is pushing eachother to improve. To not end up in a panic to thr point of crying because you know how to proceed. To indulge in competitive play and the pursuit of improvement. It's toxic to teach that as malicious. People specififying sports are just stuck in the old ways, that's not masculinity, that's traditionalism. Telling people not to cry when there isn't a solution isn't toxic masculinity, it's ignorance of the situation and stubbornness.
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djunk411 posted...

Toxic masculinty is basically ridiculing and looking down on people who don't fit into and/or aspire to stereotypically manly things. Stuff like saying "men should like sports" or "men shouldn't cry" and bullying the people who don't live up to that.

That's called not being secure with your masculinity which is not very masculine

Kyuubi4269 posted...

A primary advantage of masculinity is pushing eachother to improve. To not end up in a panic to thr point of crying because you know how to proceed. To indulge in competitive play and the pursuit of improvement. It's toxic to teach that as malicious. People specififying sports are just stuck in the old ways, that's not masculinity, that's traditionalism. Telling people not to cry when there isn't a solution isn't toxic masculinity, it's ignorance of the situation and stubbornness.

I've never really thought of competitiveness as a strictly masculine trait. Seems just like a common trait of humans, particularly prideful ones. That aside, none of those things are toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity isn't saying that stereotypical masculinity is bad, it's saying the SOCIETAL EXPECTATION of men to live up to that "manly" lifestyle and avoid "girly" things is harmful. Like, there's nothing wrong with being stereotypically manly, it's just that if you shame men for not fitting into that mold and make them feel like they have no choice but to try and be like that or they're no longer a man. Basically, when men and women impose the popular idea of what it means to "be a man" onto men and shame them for not living up to it. The key part of it all is societal expectations making people feel like they don't have a choice and the shaming of people who don't fit the mold or don't try to.

Side note, toxic femininity is pretty much the exact same thing just swap men with women and stereotypical masculinity with stereotypical femininity.

Side side note, toxic masculinity is a terrible name 'cause it makes it sound like you're saying masculinity itself is toxic. It took me forever to understand it myself 'cause the name make most explanations that much harder to convey.

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djunk411 posted...

Side side note, toxic masculinity is a terrible name 'cause it makes it sound like you're saying masculinity itself is toxic. It took me forever to understand it myself 'cause the name make most explanations that much harder to convey.

I mean I bet people would understand it better if they took five seconds to read what it meant before throwing a little bitch fit lmao

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Anyone that uses the term seriously probably should get their testosterone levels checked lol

djunk411 posted...

Toxic masculinity isn't saying that stereotypical masculinity is bad, it's saying the SOCIETAL EXPECTATION of men to live up to that "manly" lifestyle and avoid "girly" things is harmful. Like, there's nothing wrong with being stereotypically manly, it's just that if you shame men for not fitting into that mold and make them feel like they have no choice but to try and be like that or they're no longer a man. Basically, when men and women impose the popular idea of what it means to "be a man" onto men and shame them for not living up to it. The key part of it all is societal expectations making people feel like they don't have a choice and the shaming of people who don't fit the mold or don't try to.

Side note, toxic femininity is pretty much the exact same thing just swap men with women and stereotypical masculinity with stereotypical femininity.

That's toxic societal norms. Note nobody says toxic femininity because the complaints are from feminist sects.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

That's toxic societal norms. Note nobody says toxic femininity because the complaints are from feminist sects.

Because women good man bad

Nah, it's a load of horseshit crazy people cooked up to create a new target to vent their angst at. Assholes are assholes, regardless of race, gender, etc. Every demo has some.

It's OFFICIAL, Science Has PROVEN That Male Feminists Are Not REAL Men (calm down its a joke)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj0aLcBpqNI
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OhhhJa posted...

Because people like this exist past middle school

Prepare to be grossed out

https://metro.co.uk/2017/10/29/toxic-masculinity-is-preventing-some-men-from-wiping-their-bums-properly-7036601/

Amuseum posted...

It's OFFICIAL, Science Has PROVEN That Male Feminists Are Not REAL Men (calm down its a joke)

Is it a joke though?

Remember those male feminist journalists who got their testosterone tested and it was at the same level as newborns?
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