Poll of the Day > Is it really fair for MtF trans athletes to compete in women's sports?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Noop_Noop posted...

EvilMegas posted...

How is there a difference?

Well let's see, um chromosomes and sexual dimorphism?

K. I answered your asinine question. Now you can answer mine. Why do you hate women? Why are women not allowed to ever be the winners?

Chromosomes and sexual dimporphism, apparently.
---

EvilMegas posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Having an advantage and having an unfair advantage are different things. Notice how we have weight classes, not matched weight. We allow people with small advantages over eachother to compete as luck and skill will offset that. If no match against Floyd was worth watching so nobody challenged the title, you can bet your ass he would be either not allowed to compete or handicapped some way.

So you're saying yourself it's fine because we have weight classes for this exact problem that you are going on about. You contradicted yourself in the same paragraph.

Aaand he skimmed kyuubis post and didnt actually read it again. K. You're just trolling.
---

EvilMegas posted...

Noop_Noop posted...

EvilMegas posted...

How is there a difference?

Well let's see, um chromosomes and sexual dimorphism?

K. I answered your asinine question. Now you can answer mine. Why do you hate women? Why are women not allowed to ever be the winners?

Chromosomes and sexual dimporphism, apparently.

You hate women because of their chromosomes? That's pretty closed minded, but I guess not surprising.
---

Obviously its not fair, its a man vs. a woman. Stupid lefties created this, now how can they solve this without discriminating against these fake women?

this is a really good topic to determine whos transphobic or not

---

I'm kinda worried, I'm not seeing the usual gusto with the trolling. It's being phoned in.
---

PK_Spam posted...

this is a really good topic to determine who is wildly sexist and bigoted against women or not

Agreed. This sort of mysoginistic crap has no place in a civilized society.
---

EvilMegas posted...

I'm kinda worried, I'm not seeing the usual gusto with the trolling. It's being phoned in.

Oh I'd say you showed plenty of gusto, it was just super obvious once you started making adjl responses. You know, the ones where you fixate on a single sentence, ignoring the greater post that shits all over your poorly formed argument? Yeah, those.
---

There was no point in ever bothering disagreeing when he's so obviously wrong.

Do we honestly think that the boxing commission would hinder Floyd to "make it fair" if no one could best him? Not even I could make a sarcastic comment to show how wrong or improbable that was. Especially to a person that is completely ignorant to what they are discussing.

Tl;Dr it was pointless to.
---

EvilMegas posted...

Not even

Not even a fucking man can they be the best thing ever to be done to you and to get you a job in a good place to work for the best and best use of your time I would be able if I was in a position where they would have been in a different situation than a year or so before the last time they had to go out of the house to make a difference and I think that would make it easier to do what I did and I wouldn't have been there before and it would have to do so I could have done that to him.

There, I auto filled a response to 2 words in your post. It's pretty much how you've been approaching this topic.
---

That's pretty impressive, actually.
---

No its not fair
---

EvilMegas posted...

There was no point in ever bothering disagreeing when he's so obviously wrong.

Do we honestly think that the boxing commission would hinder Floyd to "make it fair" if no one could best him? Not even I could make a sarcastic comment to show how wrong or improbable that was. Especially to a person that is completely ignorant to what they are discussing.

Look at Motorsport, where the competitors (cars) are made to exploit the rules. When a competitor gains too much of an advantage, the rules get revised to block unfair match ups or ballast is added.

In boxing the competitors are much more closely matched meaning nobody walks away with a guaranteed victory.

Categories aren't just weight-based but height-based too, they account for 5'2 super heavyweights delivering over-specialised force, they account for drug abuse seeing the performance gains made. These rules weren't there day one, they were added when exploits were discovered.

If someone won every year but just had lucky genes, I guarantee they'd institute a rule that requires repeat title-holders to surrender the title and not compete for a year to mix things up. Nobody wants to watch a guy showboat year after year and viewership would drop, you're crazy if you'd think that would just be ignored.
---

Noop noop says I'm not reading it so here goes, just for him:

Motorsports=/= MMA/wrestling/boxing. That isn't vaild.

That's just wrong.

I don't see what you're getting at. The transgender people are still within the same weight classes as the woman they are fighting.

You legit must not watch sports because lol you just explained Floyd Mayweather

I forgot to tag you @Noop_Noop
---

EvilMegas posted...

weight classes as the woman

Weight classes as the woman in a relationship with a child and then the age group B and then age at the same age as the other and then they have the highest rate in their life in a long period and the time they have a job is the same way too.
---

All of you are missing the point.

There is no difference between a man and a woman, therefore a person being trans is entirely irrelevant. Dividing sports by gender is entirely sexist and should be done away with all in all. Then only the best of the general population should be chosen to play, to make it fair.
---

Dreaming_King posted...

All of you are missing the point.

There is no difference between a man and a woman, therefore a person being trans is entirely irrelevant. Dividing sports by gender is entirely sexist and should be done away with all in all. Then only the best of the general population should be chosen to play, to make it fair.

So men just get to be the best at everything and women don't even get to compete. Cool. Not sexist at all.
---

EvilMegas posted...

Motorsports=/= MMA/wrestling/boxing. That isn't vaild.

MMA =/= Football so your MMA comparisons aren't valid.

We're talking about sports and unfair advantage from competitors, this is equally applicable to motorsports as any other sport.

EvilMegas posted...

I don't see what you're getting at. The transgender people are still within the same weight classes as the woman they are fighting.

A RWD car at a set power/weight will beat an AWD car in a circuit race but lose in a rally race; there are more factors than just weight which is why we have separate male and female categories.

EvilMegas posted...

You legit must not watch sports because lol you just explained Floyd Mayweather

Fanboy/10

Transwomen vs women is more equivalent to Mayweather vs his wife than other boxers.
---

I hate Floyd Mayweather

edit for noop
The rest is also wrong.
---

EvilMegas posted...

I hate Floyd Mayweather.

I hate to be in a long distance situation where they don't know how he is doing but he doesn't have a lot to say to him and he is a little handswirl and he says I think I just don't want to.
---

Trolls running rampant in this one

No it's not fair but then again feminist have told us thier equal to us so......
---

PK_Spam posted...

A big part of the issue is that trans people literally cant even do shit in sports, much less break records, without transphobes being like tHeY cAn OnLy Do ThAt BeCaUsE tHeYrE a MaN!!!1!1!

Before we even touch the issue of do trans men have an advantage over cis women, we need to address the elephant in the room of the fact that MUCH of this criticism comes from people who already have a bone to pick with trans people just for actually being alive.

I am not trans nor am Im really a sports person, so me weighing in on this issue is kinda fraught. But people really need to get theirs heads out of their asses and address their own shit, and the myriad of issues in the sports industry with mens sports now, instead of pulling hypothetical men are just better than womenzzzzz arguments with no data other than men more muscular

...or, in other words, "let's not discuss the validity of the issue, let's attack the people making the criticism." There's a term for that, come to think of it.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

PK_Spam posted...

with no data other than men more muscular

https://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683

Because apparently size, muscle mass, and body chemistry aren't a factor in sports, who knew? After all, things like a reach advantage, greater speed, and greater physical strength don't win sports, right? XD
---

Seeing as how males are superior to females in almost every physical sport, of course it's unfair.
---

Krow_Incarnate posted...

Anyone with a brain says hell the fuck no.

But people's sensibilities and all that.

---

Why should we have a woman/man sport? Why can't we just let professional athletes do their thing and may the best person win?

---

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Why should we have a woman/man sport? Why can't we just let professional athletes do their thing and may the best person win?

because women are at a severe physical disadvantage
---

TigerTycoon posted...

Seeing as how males are superior to females in almost every physical sport, of course it's unfair.

but they say they are female, so it's women vs women..... right?
---

no, it is not fair. strip away gender, and you literally have male bodies straight brutalizing female bodies in competition, ok?
---

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Why should we have a woman/man sport? Why can't we just let professional athletes do their thing and may the best person win?

Because the winners would always be men and for fucks sake women deserve to be proud of their accomplishments too?
---

PK_Spam posted...

this is a really good topic to determine whos transphobic or not

Well if we got trans people shattering womens skulls on national tv, then yeah, its not really the best PR moment for the cause.
---

I wouldnt mind hearing a womans perspective on this subject.

@Jen0125
@RCtheWSBC
@dancer62
---

Since they have female hormones, they have female muscles. Seems fair. I'd guess they often have more bulk and longer bones than natal females, and less flexibility, so advantage or disadvantage, I don't know.

I haven't knowingly sparred against a transperson in martial arts tournaments, but have gladly fought exhibition bouts against men when there aren't female opponents in my class. It's fine with me. Easier than some 200+ pound females I've fought (I'm 5'1 140)

In golf, being taller and longer-boned with the ability to use longer clubs might be a small advantage, but I'd still expect experience and skill to prevail.
---

dancer62 posted...

Since they have female hormones, they have female muscles. Seems fair. I'd guess they often have more bulk and longer bones than natal females, and less flexibility, so advantage or disadvantage, I don't know.

I haven't knowingly sparred against a transperson in martial arts tournaments, but have gladly fought exhibition bouts against men when there aren't female opponents in my class. It's fine with me. Easier than some 200+ pound females I've fought (I'm 5'1 140)

In golf, being taller and longer-boned with the ability to use longer clubs might be a small advantage, but I'd still expect experience and skill to prevail.

except men can hit the ball far farther. that is why the womens tee is closer to the hole
---

dancer62 posted...

Since they have female hormones, they have female muscles. Seems fair. I'd guess they often have more bulk and longer bones than natal females, and less flexibility, so advantage or disadvantage, I don't know.

I haven't knowingly sparred against a transperson in tournaments, but have gladly fought exhibition bouts against men when there aren't female opponents in my class. It's fine with me. Easier than some 200+ pound females I've fought (I'm 5'1 140)

1. Female hormones dont give you female muscles. A MtF trans individual still has larger and denser muscles than a female.

2. Anybody can call themselves trans. They dont actually have to have gone through surgery or even taken hormones. And depending on the rules of the sport, they can still compete while being largely considered a male biologically.

3. You mustve sparred against some weak males, because your experience is extremely specific and anecdotal. Im 6 foot tall, 245 pounds with no formal training in self defense or martial arts. But I guarantee you if we got into a ring together, youd walk away injured.

Youre actually doing more harm to women than you realize by downplaying whats going on here.
---

Noop_Noop posted...

Lil_Bit83 posted...

Why should we have a woman/man sport? Why can't we just let professional athletes do their thing and may the best person win?

Because the winners would always be men and for fucks sake women deserve to be proud of their accomplishments too?

this, exactly. and whenever actual women do speak out with concern, they're bullied and called transphobic, ok?
---

MyPetKenshin posted...

dancer62 posted...

Since they have female hormones, they have female muscles. Seems fair. I'd guess they often have more bulk and longer bones than natal females, and less flexibility, so advantage or disadvantage, I don't know.

I haven't knowingly sparred against a transperson in tournaments, but have gladly fought exhibition bouts against men when there aren't female opponents in my class. It's fine with me. Easier than some 200+ pound females I've fought (I'm 5'1 140)

1. Female hormones dont give you female muscles. A MtF trans individual still has larger and denser muscles than a female.

2. Anybody can call themselves trans. They dont actually have to have gone through surgery or even taken hormones. And depending on the rules of the sport, they can still compete while being largely considered a male biologically.

3. You mustve sparred against some weak males, because your experience is extremely specific and anecdotal. Im 6 foot tall, 245 pounds with no formal training in self defense or martial arts. But I guarantee you if we got into a ring together, youd walk away injured.

Youre actually doing more harm to women than you realize by downplaying whats going on here.

An admittedly cursory search of the literature doesn't indicate a particular advantage to MTF athletes over natal female athletes. Jokes about Russian weightlifters aside, the Olympics and highest levels of sports are not overrun by MTF athletes.

1. Female hormones = female muscles. Male hormones = male muscles. Overdose of male hormones = bigger muscles plus nasty side effects. No hormones = loss of muscle mass and strength. Check eunuchs.

2. Unless I'm badly mistaken, for sanctioned sports, trans athletes have to pass the same physical examination as their natal sisters, including steroids, metabolites, etc. Hormones must be documented as maintained at female levels for at least a year.

3. Big tough untrained male, small disciple-level trained female. Hmm. Sue Shiomi?
---

I could see it in NASCAR or other vehicle races, but not really any of the others.
---

Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

I could see it in NASCAR or other vehicle races, but not really any of the others.

I wasn't aware that there was a separate women's division in NASCAR. Even the local "powder-puff" events I remember from when I was a kid have fallen out of favor. My childhood heroes, Pat Moss-Carlssen and Denise McCluggage competed in both ladies' and open-class racing in the 1950s and 60s.
---

dancer62 posted...

An admittedly cursory search of the literature doesn't indicate a particular advantage to MTF athletes over natal female athletes. Jokes about Russian weightlifters aside, the Olympics and highest levels of sports are not overrun by MTF athletes.

It's as though no country would dare enter a man in women's events to score free points. It makes the country look bad.

dancer62 posted...

1. Female hormones = female muscles. Male hormones = male muscles. Overdose of male hormones = bigger muscles plus nasty side effects. No hormones = loss of muscle mass and strength. Check eunuchs.

For somebody who claims to be medically knowledgeable enough to claim vaccines bad, you sure don't understand biology.

A man suppressing testosterone gets weaker muscle but the gains they got as a male for decades gave them permanent strength improvement and enhanced their ability to train. Note that athletes who dope during training then back off before competition are still much stronger.

A woman injecting testosterone will get stronger muscle, but it is not comparable to men with a lifetime of testosterone who grew more in their formative years.

dancer62 posted...

2. Unless I'm badly mistaken, for sanctioned sports, trans athletes have to pass the same physical examination as their natal sisters, including steroids, metabolites, etc. Hormones must be documented as maintained at female levels for at least a year.

It depends on the sport, but testosterone can just be classed as medicine. Note in the tour de france a team got a lot of shit for abusing hayfever medicine for an edge, but it was allowed in the first place as standard medicine.

dancer62 posted...

3. Big tough untrained male, small disciple-level trained female. Hmm. Sue Shiomi?

Lol that's like calling Jackie Chan a Kyokushin karate master.
---

Noop_Noop posted...

EvilMegas posted...

How is there a difference?

Well let's see, um chromosomes and sexual dimorphism?

keep going

let's see what you know about biology
---

men have more fast twitch muscle fibres :V
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

dancer62 posted...

An admittedly cursory search of the literature doesn't indicate a particular advantage to MTF athletes over natal female athletes. Jokes about Russian weightlifters aside, the Olympics and highest levels of sports are not overrun by MTF athletes.

It's as though no country would dare enter a man in women's events to score free points. It makes the country look bad.

dancer62 posted...

1. Female hormones = female muscles. Male hormones = male muscles. Overdose of male hormones = bigger muscles plus nasty side effects. No hormones = loss of muscle mass and strength. Check eunuchs.

For somebody who claims to be medically knowledgeable enough to claim vaccines bad, you sure don't understand biology.

A man suppressing testosterone gets weaker muscle but the gains they got as a male for decades gave them permanent strength improvement and enhanced their ability to train. Note that athletes who dope during training then back off before competition are still much stronger.

A woman injecting testosterone will get stronger muscle, but it is not comparable to men with a lifetime of testosterone who grew more in their formative years.

dancer62 posted...

2. Unless I'm badly mistaken, for sanctioned sports, trans athletes have to pass the same physical examination as their natal sisters, including steroids, metabolites, etc. Hormones must be documented as maintained at female levels for at least a year.

It depends on the sport, but testosterone can just be classed as medicine. Note in the tour de france a team got a lot of shit for abusing hayfever medicine for an edge, but it was allowed in the first place as standard medicine.

dancer62 posted...

3. Big tough untrained male, small disciple-level trained female. Hmm. Sue Shiomi?

Lol that's like calling Jackie Chan a Kyokushin karate master.

This guy gets it.
---

Not seeing a whole solid points being made here so let me try to recall what I learned from my research.

A lot of argument is made for "well fully transitioned athletes dont have testosterone anymore".
Everyone has testosterone, even women, if small amounts, as do men have small amounts of estrogen.
And trans women are still bound to have more testosterone then natural born females.

Second thing is skeletal structure, this never changes. A bigger frame can mean more stability such as in boxing, etc. Longer arms mean better reach for a variety of things. Longer legs mean longer strides, for sprinting.

Another is lung capacity, men on average have bigger lungs which is getting more oxygen to the body. And I believe what coincides with this is higher red blood cell count which feeds both blood and oxygen to different parts of the body.

So there is definitely scientific reasoning behind not allowing trans-women to participate in women's sports. Its just unfair to biological women.
---

I don't think screwing over women across all sports is worth making a few trans people feel better about themselves.
---

Yep. Completely fair.

This is the idiotic world that the lefties are building. So let the women deal with the world that the insane feminists and sjw's are helping to create.
---

I feel it's unfair, simply because the M2F has the testosterone and overall build of a man; it would be like letting a professional baseball player join little league.
---

Noop_Noop posted...

Women are the real losers in the trans rights movement. Men get to be better than them at everything, including being women.

The one thing men can never beat a woman in is making life but modern western women dont seem to care about that anymore.
---

CarefreeDude posted...

I feel it's unfair, simply because the M2F has the testosterone and overall build of a man; it would be like letting a professional baseball player join little league.

Agreed
---

bulbinking posted...

The one thing men can never beat a woman in is making life but modern western women dont seem to care about that anymore.

I mean, it's not like the ability to create a life is anything important, celebrated, or worth mentioning as far as humanity is concerned, right?
---