Board 8 > So who was the better movie Joker?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I actually watched The Dark Knight recently so both performances are rather fresh in my mind.
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I dunno man. They were both great.

I'm vaguely inclined to go with Ledger but I think that's because of the way the movies were. I think I prefer a Joker operating at the peak of his powers and menacing Batman as opposed to Phoenix's proto-Joker. I almost want to say Phoenix's performance was better but Ledger was a better Joker, but I don't even know if that makes sense. Can't decide at all.

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Ledger captures the character and acts as a foil. Phoenix gets to make it all his own, but you could call that character anything. You could sell Phoenix as a mentally broken fan of the comic books, or you could call him by any psychopath name. I hate to say he's generic, he's very good, but he's not the Joker.
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Nicholson just can't compare I guess?
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ChichiriMuyo posted...

Ledger captures the character and acts as a foil. Phoenix gets to make it all his own, but you could call that character anything. You could sell Phoenix as a mentally broken fan of the comic books, or you could call him by any psychopath name. I hate to say he's generic, he's very good, but he's not the Joker.

Have to admit this thought kinda crossed my mind as well. Maybe wouldn't go as far as to say "generic" but it crosses over with what I said about Joker being better when he's menacing Batman and loses something when he's not.

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XIII_rocks posted...

ChichiriMuyo posted...

Ledger captures the character and acts as a foil. Phoenix gets to make it all his own, but you could call that character anything. You could sell Phoenix as a mentally broken fan of the comic books, or you could call him by any psychopath name. I hate to say he's generic, he's very good, but he's not the Joker.

Have to admit this thought kinda crossed my mind as well. Maybe wouldn't go as far as to say "generic" but it crosses over with what I said about Joker being better when he's menacing Batman and loses something when he's not.

John Carpenter just wrote a Joker one shot comic that has you looking through the lens of one of his henchman, and it's purely Joker menacing the city without Batman. It's one of my favourite stories in a while, you should definitely check it out if you want to see something Joker related that doesn't directly involve Batman!
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Underleveled posted...

Nicholson just can't compare I guess?

He really can't.

The difference between Ledger and Phoenix is that the latter gets to be on screen the entire movie. Ledger's on screen for about 30 minutes total and his impact is felt the whole time, even when he's not in the scene.
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I haven't seen the new one and don't know if/when I will but I highly doubt Phoenix has half as many amazing quotes as Ledger's script gave him.

also no love for Mark Hamill?
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ChichiriMuyo posted...

Ledger captures the character and acts as a foil. Phoenix gets to make it all his own, but you could call that character anything. You could sell Phoenix as a mentally broken fan of the comic books, or you could call him by any psychopath name. I hate to say he's generic, he's very good, but he's not the Joker.

I wouldn't say he's definitely not the Joker. He's just not necessarily the Joker.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I haven't seen the new one and don't know if/when I will but I highly doubt Phoenix has half as many amazing quotes as Ledger's script gave him.

also no love for Mark Hamill?

It says MOVIE Joker. I wouldn't give a movie Hamill Joker a pass onto this list either.
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pretty sure Hamill's voiced a few movie Jokers! But I understand live action is the premise.
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LeonhartFour posted...

He really can't.

The difference between Ledger and Phoenix is that the latter gets to be on screen the entire movie. Ledger's on screen for about 30 minutes total and his impact is felt the whole time, even when he's not in the scene.

But the other side of this is that Phoenix has to maintain an exceptional standard in every scene, in a variety of situations and showcasing a variety of emotions. Presence matters, but holding together what is almost a one-man show should be lauded too.

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ExThaNemesis posted...

pretty sure Hamill's voiced a few movie Jokers! But I understand live action is the premise.

He has, and they aren't great, which is what I'm talking about.
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Cant believe you didnt include Jared Leto /s

Ledger seemed to be the first one to play the joker as a psychopath anarchist rather than a cartoonish crazy clown villain. Points definitely go to him for doing something different.

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Ledger by a landslide but part of that was the script and The Dark Knight's vision for the Joker just being better. Joker's Joker was an interesting story but I didn't really like it as a Joker story very much.

I think if Phoenix tried to play Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight it'd be a closer call cause he did do really well with what he had to work with, though I'm thinking Ledger nails down the dark subtle humor and general mannerisms better than Phoenix could. Like Ledger is the bit more subtle of the two overall as weird as that sounds and that's good. Way less of a crutch on being loud and laughing and over the top movements, and even the dialogue itself. There are just a lot of little things Ledger does right-- just look at the way he walks around and stuff. There's just a presence about him that Phoenix doesn't have. That's not to say Phoenix isn't any good, because he is and absolutely deserves to be in the conversation unlike Leto or Nicholson, but yeah
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Yeah more I think about it the more it seems like this isn't really a valid comparison to make

Ledger Joker was peak Joker. Phoenix Joker is just another dude until the third act. Completely different performances, completely different characters, both excellently performed

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scarletspeed7 posted...

He has, and they aren't great, which is what I'm talking about.

Thats not really on Hamill though, is it?

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redrocket posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

He has, and they aren't great, which is what I'm talking about.

Thats not really on Hamill though, is it?

Does it matter in the context of the question?
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Nall posted...

I found Nicholsons to be my favorite.

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Jack Torrance was my favorite The Joker too
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Yeah, I was mostly curious about the comparison between the two, because obviously people love other Joker incarnations, too.

I think what gets me is the menace. I'm not really terrified of Phoenix's Joker. People point towards the realism but the main problem is that he really more or less stumbled into his successes. He doesn't come off as particularly crafty or clever, just a sick human being who eventually has enough of the world.

Ledger's Joker is terrifying because he's someone who comes off as intelligent, quick-witted, and generally more in control. Even if he considers himself an agent of chaos, everything he does is very thought-out and planned. And it's much scarier when a dude who seems so smart thinks in such nihilistic terms, instead of a dude who's had life shit on him so badly he decides to "fight back" so to speak. Basically with Phoenix I go "of course he ended up the way he did, look at what happened to him" and even though Ledger's Joker didn't have an origin story, obviously, I still can't imagine any scenario that would explain his thought process.
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I like both, voted Ledger. Part of your complaint about Phoenix is that he hasnt really planned what happened, but he didnt have an opportunity to. Id be interested in seeing what a sequel would do in showing the transformation from the first movie to an actual mastermind.

Uglyface2 posted...

I like both, voted Ledger. Part of your complaint about Phoenix is that he hasnt really planned what happened, but he didnt have an opportunity to. Id be interested in seeing what a sequel would do in showing the transformation from the first movie to an actual mastermind.

But like something like the cop scene towards the end.

He shouldn't be running away in a kinda slapstick manner to avoid these two cops. At this point, he's fully embrace the character he's become. Why not have him quickly turn around and shoot the two, and resume his dancing? It would have been such a great character moment to kind of get that the transformation is complete. There's no hesitation, no reasoning, we just saw in a scene not long before that how quickly he deals with a problem now.

And I'd get it more of the subway scene added much of anything to the story, but I really don't feel it did. We didn't need to the death of a protester to catalyze things, his actions on the Murray Franklin show should have been it.
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Caeser Romero

I generally agree with you Rock but I feel like your question is more who was the better Joker, The Dark Knight's Joker or Joker's Joker more than the actors themselves.

That being said I know Ledger can nail the Joker I like a lot more and I'm not sure Phoenix could-- could Ledger nail Phoenix's Joker? Well maybe, maybe not, but yeah, I like TDK Joker a lot better anyway so it's kind of just a weird theorycraft.

I mean it's still a Ledger vs Phoenix question in a way but yeah a lot of it comes down to tastes on the scripts and interpretations of what Joker's character actually is more than the performances.
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