Poll of the Day > Some El Paso shooting victims fear seeking medical aid over immigration status

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/el-paso-shooting-victims-walmart-immigration-ice-raids-trump-mexico-a9038671.html

America

---

Considering how much of Texas is full of Immigrants, and unless being shot is an everyday occurrence for them so it's no big deal...they're full of shit

America

Lol after having read the actual article:

"Some of the victims of the El Paso Walmart mass shooting avoided seeking medical treatment because they were worried about their immigration status, it is feared."

So the entire thing is speculation.

If my options were "bleed to death" vs "get deported from the country I illegally entered", my choice would be crystal clear.
---

Side note, an illegal immigrant being shot in a mass shooting at a Texas Walmart is the most tragically American thing I've ever heard.
---

faramir77 posted...

Side note, an illegal immigrant being shot in a mass shooting at a Texas Walmart is the most tragically American thing I've ever heard.

What if the person who shot him was morbidly obese and riding a scooter?
---

miki_sauvester posted...

Lol after having read the actual article:

"Some of the victims of the El Paso Walmart mass shooting avoided seeking medical treatment because they were worried about their immigration status, it is feared."

So the entire thing is speculation.

Did you read the entire article? Even the official border patrol response says that they are having their officials return to regular duty implying they were indeed investigating whether the patients were legal residents

also notable that they mention their support of the community as a whole, conceding that even the immigrants without legal status are indeed part of their community

imagine actually avoiding care because youre afraid your family or household is gonna be split up

---

faramir77 posted...

If my options were "bleed to death" vs "get deported from the country I illegally entered", my choice would be crystal clear.

Plus from every account that I have read or heard, being shot is not a pleasant experience to put it mildly and medical care is pretty much needed. The only exceptions where it didn't seem to be an issue, the person was so under the influence of drugs/alcohol, they didn't notice they were shot or they had a mental illness.

Mead posted...

miki_sauvester posted...

Lol after having read the actual article:

"Some of the victims of the El Paso Walmart mass shooting avoided seeking medical treatment because they were worried about their immigration status, it is feared."

So the entire thing is speculation.

Did you read the entire article? Even the official border patrol response says that they are having their officials return to regular duty implying they were indeed investigating whether the patients were legal residents

also notable that they mention their support of the community as a whole, conceding that even the immigrants without legal status are indeed part of their community

imagine actually avoiding care because youre afraid your family or household is gonna be split up

They're only part of the community because they've moved in an taken up residence. Too bad they just don't become actual citizens and then the whole threat of deportation would go away. Problem solved.

Imagine actually not being worried anymore because you're not breaking the law and your family won't be spilt up

It sucks but that could happen in any other country as well. It's not like only america boots out illegal immigrants js

CTLM posted...

Plus from every account that I have read or heard, being shot is not a pleasant experience to put it mildly and medical care is pretty much needed. The only exceptions where it didn't seem to be an issue, the person was so under the influence of drugs/alcohol, they didn't notice they were shot or they had a mental illness.

Such strong intentional blinders on right here

for one thing someone could easily be injured in a scenario like this in a densely populated area with so many people fleeing

its also possible someone could be shot but if the injury didnt seem immediately life threatening family members could help them home out of fear of the officials

theres also the fact that people could be traumatized and need help even if they werent physically injured


---

OhhhJa posted...

It sucks but that could happen in any other country as well. It's not like only america boots out illegal immigrants js

If it happened in another country it would be just as fucked up what even is your point

---

CTLM posted...

They're only part of the community because they've moved in an taken up residence. Too bad they just don't become actual citizens and then the whole threat of deportation would go away. Problem solved.

Imagine actually not being worried anymore because you're not breaking the law and your family won't be spilt up

Its not like they can just fill out some paperwork. If theyre here without legal status they get detained and deported. And if they apply for citizenship from another country they can wait decades for a decision and still have it denied if they arent an engineer or doctor, or arent willing to pay $1 million USD to just buy their citizenship(a totally real thing)

The entire immigration system needs a complete overhaul. Treating anyone here who has questionable status like theyre an outlaw is an exercise in extreme ignorance and callousness.

---

Mead posted...

imagine actually avoiding care because youre afraid your family or household is gonna be split up

I get that it's sad when this happens, but illegal immigration is illegal.

Imagine if someone commits tax fraud, starts a family, and gets busted for the tax fraud years later. Would you excuse them from a jail sentence because they have a family?

There are existing legal routes to immigrate to the US. Ignoring those rules is deeply selfish and hurts those that immigrated legally.
---

Mead posted...

OhhhJa posted...

It sucks but that could happen in any other country as well. It's not like only america boots out illegal immigrants js

If it happened in another country it would be just as fucked up what even is your point

When people say "merica" like it's the only place that boots out illegal immigrants it's nowhere near correct

faramir77 posted...

I get that it's sad when this happens, but illegal immigration is illegal.

Imagine if someone commits tax fraud, starts a family, and gets busted for the tax fraud years later. Would you excuse them from a jail sentence because they have a family?

There are existing legal routes to immigrate to the US. Ignoring those rules is deeply selfish and hurts those that immigrated legally.

A jail sentence is one thing, being permanently separated from your kids or family is another. And the truth is that crossing a border without going through proper channels is traditional not seen as as a major offense and more of a civil matter. You dont see folks insisting that anyone with a speeding ticket or parking violation is a criminal and that their basic human rights should be disregarded.

---

CTLM posted...

Too bad they just don't become actual citizens and then the whole threat of deportation would go away.

Do you have any idea how difficult and expensive it is to become even a permanent legal resident in this country? It costs thousands of dollars in fees just to file the paperwork, and most people will need to hire a lawyer which costs thousands more.
---

OhhhJa posted...

When people say "merica" like it's the only place that boots out illegal immigrants it's nowhere near correct

That isnt a thing even. I said America because this is where I live and I think that as a nation we are better than that

Youre inventing a strawman that isnt there

---

Mead posted...

CTLM posted...

Plus from every account that I have read or heard, being shot is not a pleasant experience to put it mildly and medical care is pretty much needed. The only exceptions where it didn't seem to be an issue, the person was so under the influence of drugs/alcohol, they didn't notice they were shot or they had a mental illness.

Such strong intentional blinders on right here

for one thing someone could easily be injured in a scenario like this in a densely populated area with so many people fleeing

its also possible someone could be shot but if the injury didnt seem immediately life threatening family members could help them home out of fear of the officials

theres also the fact that people could be traumatized and need help even if they werent physically injured

Strong intentional blinders? Dafuq? You tell me a personal example then where someone was shot that didn't need medical care or didn't notice they were shot. My dad was shot in Vietnam (still served the rest of his tour) and I had a teacher who was shot when he lived in New Orleans. Both said it didn't fucking tickle.

Reading first hand accounts from people who didn't realize they had been shot, what's usually their excuse for not seeking medical attention? "I was too drunk and didn't notice I had been shot"

When that adrenaline wears off from a life or death situation, you know you've been shot and you seek care

CTLM posted...

Strong intentional blinders? Dafuq? You tell me a personal example then where someone was shot that didn't need medical care or didn't notice they were shot. My dad was shot in Vietnam (still served the rest of his tour) and I had a teacher who was shot when he lived in New Orleans. Both said it didn't fucking tickle.

Reading first hand accounts from people who didn't realize they had been shot, what's usually their excuse for not seeking medical attention? "I was too drunk and didn't notice I had been shot"

When that adrenaline wears off from a life or death situation, you know you've been shot and you seek care

I guess when ya cant win an argument you just invent your own

---

Mead posted...

A jail sentence is one thing, being permanently separated from your kids or family is another.

I have an easy solution to that problem.

Don't jump the border unauthorized.

Mead posted...

OhhhJa posted...

It sucks but that could happen in any other country as well. It's not like only america boots out illegal immigrants js

If it happened in another country it would be just as fucked up what even is your point

The only difference is that, if an incident like this occurred in another country, the US would be one of the first countries to cry about the illegal alien's human rights being violated. Then again since we no longer care about human rights, not even in our own country anymore...

TheWorstPoster posted...

I have an easy solution to that problem. Don't jump the border unauthorized.

Wut?! That's crazy talk! We're Murica! We have an obligation to take in every random person who desires to break our immigration laws and then allow them and their families the right to do whatever they want with zero repercussion because DAH CHILDREN!
---

The_tall_midget posted...

TheWorstPoster posted...

I have an easy solution to that problem. Don't jump the border unauthorized.

Wut?! That's crazy talk! We're Murica! We have an obligation to take in every random person who desires to break our immigration laws and then allow them and their families the right to do whatever they want with zero repercussion because DAH CHILDREN!

Most of the time, it's not even their own children.

The_tall_midget posted...

Wut?! That's crazy talk! We're Murica! We have an obligation to take in every random person who desires to break our immigration laws and then allow them and their families the right to do whatever they want with zero repercussion because DAH CHILDREN!

hey real quick, are you ever going to explain how "idiotic feminists" are the reason incels exist

---

I'm starting to see why Mead would sympathize with freeloaders

And hey, these freeloaders have a choice at least.
---

So theyre freeloaders but they also steal jobs?

---

Bulbasaur posted...

hey real quick, are you ever going to explain how "idiotic feminists" are the reason incels exist

What the hell are you talking about? Yes, do please remind me of the exact quote if it's something I once said, because I think context is needed.
---

Mead posted...

So theyre freeloaders but they also steal jobs?

Well, someone has to if the people on welfare won't.
---

Krow_Incarnate posted...

Well, someone has to if the people on welfare won't.

How are noncitizens supposed to apply/qualify for welfare?

---

[EDIT: More Topics from this Board recommended the topic, but I guess I'm slightly late to the party =x ]

Mead posted...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/el-paso-shooting-victims-walmart-immigration-ice-raids-trump-mexico-a9038671.html

America

You're aware that other nations also report immigration status when somebody receives medical care, right? America is hardly unique in that regard.

faramir77 posted...

Mead posted...

imagine actually avoiding care because youre afraid your family or household is gonna be split up

I get that it's sad when this happens, but illegal immigration is illegal.

Imagine if someone commits tax fraud, starts a family, and gets busted for the tax fraud years later. Would you excuse them from a jail sentence because they have a family?

There are existing legal routes to immigrate to the US. Ignoring those rules is deeply selfish and hurts those that immigrated legally.

This. When you're breaking the law (or have broken it), you're going to have different concerns than average people.

Mead posted...

A jail sentence is one thing, being permanently separated from your kids or family is another.

...going to jail is being separated from your family. Every person who goes to jail might lose out on seeing his family.

Mead posted...

And the truth is that crossing a border without going through proper channels is traditional not seen as as a major offense and more of a civil matter.

So basically you're arguing that laws should be viewed the say you see them?

Mead posted...

You dont see folks insisting that anyone with a speeding ticket or parking violation is a criminal and that their basic human rights should be disregarded.

That's about as false of an equivocation as you can get.
---

faramir77 posted...

There are existing legal routes to immigrate to the US.

Unless you have a sponsor already in the country or you have a needed skillset for an employer, the legal routes are sparse. You mostly have to rely on the green card lottery or trying to get refugee status. Any legal channel is long, drawn out and very expensive.

The immigration process itself needs a massive overhaul.
---

Aaantlion posted...

That's about as false of an equivocation as you can get.

Historically it really isnt. Acting like immigrating without going through bureaucratic channels is some terrible crime that should nullify a persons rights is a fairly new viewpoint.

Its a civil issue, but in itself it shouldnt be a criminal one, no matter how much youd like it to be.

---

Aaantlion posted...

So basically you're arguing that laws should be viewed the say you see them?

this is the impression I'm getting.

@Mead Genuinely curious: in general (irrespective of the shooting/health care part) given that a particular individual has been shown to have immigrated illegally, what do you think the consequences, if any, should be? IE: should an illegal immigrant be deported?

---

Sahuagin posted...

this is the impression I'm getting.

@Mead Genuinely curious: in general (irrespective of the shooting/health care part) given that a particular individual has been shown to have immigrated illegally, what do you think the consequences, if any, should be? IE: should an illegal immigrant be deported?

I dont think it should be a black and white thing just based on immigration status

a lot of questions should be asked like does the person have close family members here, are they employed or in school, will they or their loved ones be in danger if deported, and of course have they committed any serious crimes

Even if citizenship is out of the question for people who dont immigrate legally, there needs to be an established path towards legal status of some kind so that they are paying federal taxes and contributing towards public services

---

Mead posted...

I dont think it should be a black and white thing just based on immigration status

I don't think it would be black and white "based on immigration status", it would be black and white based on what the law says. for example, if a person has family members, isn't there a proper procedure for family members to immigrate? should there not be a consequence for having skipped over that process? if they would be in danger if deported, would that make them refugees? etc.

otherwise, why in these cases should the law be ignored? it makes sense if you say that you think immigration law should be changed; but it doesn't make sense to say that the laws should just be ignored because you don't like them.

---

Keebs05 posted...

The immigration process itself needs a massive overhaul.

A million people legally immigrate to the USA every year. Who is our immigration system hindering exactly?
---

Sahuagin posted...

I don't think it would be black and white "based on immigration status", it would be black and white based on what the law says. for example, if a person has family members, isn't there a proper procedure for family members to immigrate? should there not be a consequence for having skipped over that process? if they would be in danger if deported, would that make them refugees? etc.

otherwise, why in these cases should the law be ignored? it makes sense if you say that you think immigration law should be changed; but it doesn't make sense to say that the laws should just be ignored because you don't like them.

The fact is though that law enforcement chooses which laws to enforce and when to enforce them all the time

Its common for laws to be written and for situations to change. Im not saying there should be no consequences for immigrating outside of bureaucratic channels but treating it like a serious criminal offense seems to only make everything worse.

Im not for open borders and I actually think building a wall would simplify a lot of matters, but the people that are here, are already here. In many ways theyre already Americans if not on paper. Does it really benefit the country to spend a bunch of money to separate them from their families, detain them for who knows how long, and then deport them back to the place they fled originally?

---

Keebs05 posted...

Unless you have a sponsor already in the country or you have a needed skillset for an employer, the legal routes are sparse.

The options are sparse for people the country doesn't want? Who woulda thunk it.

Mead posted...

a lot of questions should be asked like does the person have close family members here, are they employed or in school, will they or their loved ones be in danger if deported, and of course have they committed any serious crimes

So if you want to illegally immigrate, everybody should bring their pregnant wife and enroll in school ASAP? Considering how they can't get in because they're unskilled, there's no way this would be undesirable /s
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

The options are sparse for people the country doesn't want? Who woulda thunk it.

So if you want to illegally immigrate, everybody should bring their pregnant wife and enroll in school ASAP? Considering how they can't get in because they're unskilled, there's no way this would be undesirable /s

Yeah an unskilled person learning a trade and starting a family would be utterly disastrous. Probably destroy our whole country.

---

Mead posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

The options are sparse for people the country doesn't want? Who woulda thunk it.

So if you want to illegally immigrate, everybody should bring their pregnant wife and enroll in school ASAP? Considering how they can't get in because they're unskilled, there's no way this would be undesirable /s

Yeah an unskilled person learning a trade and starting a family would be utterly disastrous. Probably destroy our whole country.

The US already has unskilled people, it's pretty disastrous to leave them unskilled because criminals stole the training positions. What do you think those people should do? Sneak in to Mexico for a better life?

Illegal immigrants feed off the success of their host country at the detriment of the native population.
---

ninja_lootz posted...

Keebs05 posted...

The immigration process itself needs a massive overhaul.

A million people legally immigrate to the USA every year. Who is our immigration system hindering exactly?

The hopeful immigrants that don't have thousands of dollars in the bank or a relative in the country that can help sponsor them. The immigrants that have sent in all of their paperwork and fees and have waited years without a peep from the government. The people that have legally immigrated and have been waiting for months for their green card so they can work and contribute to society.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Keebs05 posted...

Unless you have a sponsor already in the country or you have a needed skillset for an employer, the legal routes are sparse.

The options are sparse for people the country doesn't want? Who woulda thunk it.

Are people only useful if they have a skill or a ton of cash? Doesn't bode well for a ton of people on this site.
---

Keebs05 posted...

Are people only useful if they have a skill or a ton of cash?

Yes; that's the only objective measure worth noting, can you produce or can you bring resources.

Keebs05 posted...

Doesn't bode well for a ton of people on this site.

They were born in their countries, nobody else will take them, they have no emigration options. We invest in training because we can't just palm off useless citizens on to other countries, it's an incurable disease that can only have its symptoms subdued.
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

The US already has unskilled people, it's pretty disastrous to leave them unskilled because criminals stole the training positions.

Last I checked the US needs all the skilled labor it can get

its not like you apply to a trade school and they say sorry all the spots have been taken by immigrants

---

Mead posted...

The fact is though that law enforcement chooses which laws to enforce and when to enforce them all the time

usually that is for trivial or inconsequential infractions, like driving a few mph over the speed limit or something. the equivalent of that for immigration would be something like staying a few days or weeks more than 6 months in the country out of a year. staying in the country for years upon years without actually immigrating is the egregious version of breaking this rule, not the trivial version.

Mead posted...

Does it really benefit the country to spend a bunch of money to separate them from their families, detain them for who knows how long, and then deport them back to the place they fled originally?

I don't know, but just because it might seem harsh in the short-term doesn't mean it's a bad idea when looking at the long-term. borders exist for a reason. the immigration process exists for a reason. the citizens of a country have a right to their own country and not to have it invaded by foreigners. it also makes sense to at times loosen and at times tighten border restrictions.

I think that people should focus on improving their own countries. fleeing your country to go join the supposedly utopian USA only hurts your own country, and is not a solution to the world's problems.

(*inadequately informed rampant speculation warning*)
I think there are a lot of countries that could do so much better if their citizens could turn things around. some primary reasons they can't are culture and education related, and the internet should slowly help smoothen out issues of culture and education in the very long term. it's almost a given, I think (not that I know anything about this), that places like especially Africa, and maybe India will eventually overtake the USA or at least start to compete with them. I particularly envision an African superpower in 100+ years, but who knows. Once education and technology really start to take hold in some places, which they quickly are, there's going to be a lot of unforseen changes for the better in the future (notwithstanding China and Russia messing everything up).

---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Keebs05 posted...

Are people only useful if they have a skill or a ton of cash?

Yes; that's the only objective measure worth noting, can you produce or can you bring resources

You can be an unskilled worker and still be able to produce. With the country experiencing a labor shortage, unskilled workers are becoming more in demand.
---

Keebs05 posted...

You can be an unskilled worker and still be able to produce. With the country experiencing a labor shortage, unskilled workers are becoming more in demand.

We have enough people already to do unskilled work. Bringing in more people is what increases the need for unskilled workers to make more stuff.

Bringing in people with lower work/pay standards (due to their home country having lower costs where they send money) holds back minimum standards for workers. Natives don't work unskilled jobs because the pay and conditions are poor, it's unethical to circumvent those concerns.
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Keebs05 posted...

You can be an unskilled worker and still be able to produce. With the country experiencing a labor shortage, unskilled workers are becoming more in demand.

We have enough people already to do unskilled work. Bringing in more people is what increases the need for unskilled workers to make more stuff.

Bringing in people with lower work/pay standards (due to their home country having lower costs where they send money) holds back minimum standards for workers. Natives don't work unskilled jobs because the pay and conditions are poor, it's unethical to circumvent those concerns.

So instead of bringing in unskilled labor that want to work, you overburden the people already working because native unskilled workers thumbed their nose up at it?
---

Keebs05 posted...

So instead of bringing in unskilled labor that want to work, you overburden the people already working because native unskilled workers thumbed their nose up at it?

Instead of exploiting immigrants at the cost of overpopulation, you raise work and pay standards and make these jobs worth working. The fact people aren't working them means there's a problem with the compensation for the work.
---

Kyuubi4269 posted...

The fact people aren't working them means there's a problem with the compensation for the work.

Or is it a problem with a rapidly-retiring baby boomer worker population and a steadily-increasing millennial workforce that thinks flipping burgers should be a viable career option?
---