Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 465: La Somber

(+) Yeah! (+)

Alright, man. You have a nice day.
---

What the hell is that condescension for? What the fuck?
---

It wasn't meant to be condescending. I'm just not going to spend my time typing up a long argument that would do nothing to sway your opinion when we obviously disagree fundamentally at the very top level of this issue.
---

XIII_rocks posted...

Example of "wait and see" working: women's revolution. The initial 3-on-3-on-3 thing with the Bellas was dreadful and went on for months. People claimed the revolution had failed and that it had been a disaster. However, it was ultimately only a temporary thing and it led to the women having probably the MotN at Wrestlemania.

All I'm going to say is that there is absolutely no reason why any fan of anything should have to suffer through something as awful as those 3-on-3-on-3 storylines that went on for months and be expected to wait and see.

If something sucks, they should rightly be called out for it. But they shouldn't be excused for making people sit through abject garbage like that storyline so they could eventually make something people might want to enjoy. What they should be doing is not making garbage and instead make something people enjoy so we don't even have to have these conversations and taking a "wait and see" approach. Like why should we pat them on the back for making something bad just because eventually, months later, they managed to do something right with it? And why should we have to be optimistic about something because sometimes, occasionally, maybe, they might actually turn a bad thing into something okay?

WWE created this attitude with their fans. If they made good content then people wouldn't complain nearly as much. That's not even an argument. And if that is an argument you'd want to make, then my response to it is that once WWE makes steady, good content, you can "wait and see" if the attitude of the fans change.
---

Idk I think we came to a compromise there. I blame WWE, I just don't think fans should be absolved of blame too. The vanity of smarks wanting their own complaints to stand out leads to extra criticisms that either don't matter or that are outright lies.

Like the crowd during the iron man match were so annoying and it was a shitty thing to do. But I totally get why they'd want to shit on WWE as a company.

Do you watch Game of Thrones? Go to the TV board when GoT is on and you'll see another example of what I'm talking about. The amount of absolutely bonkers, contrived criticisms people come up with is truly insane. And I think it's because they see how the big, obvious ones have already been taken. So boo GoT for some poor writing, but boo GoT fans for their sheer vanity.
---

I wouldn't say the women's revolution is the same as Almas at all

The women's revolution they at least never stopped trying

Almas they're not actually trying to do anything so saying to wait and see is dumb. Like if waiting and seeing eventually works it's not because we should've given them a chance to give him something to do it's because they randomly decided to do something. Which isn't what wait and see is for. You might as well say wait and see for someone who doesn't even work for the WWE getting something because hell, who knows, they might hire them!
---

Purely a devil's advocate question here: does the WWE even deserve that much credit for the "Women's Revolution" finally working?

What kind of state would the women's division be in right now if they hadn't signed Rousey and fallen completely ass-backwards into Lynch getting hot?
---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

All I'm going to say is that there is absolutely no reason why any fan of anything should have to suffer through something as awful as those 3-on-3-on-3 storylines that went on for months and be expected to wait and see.

It's about the language that is used.

It's 100% fair to deem the 3-on-3-on-3 segments garbage without declaring the entire women's revolution a disaster when it's nowhere close to being done. Those are two separate things.

Likewise declaring Almas a failure in WWE is wrong at this moment in time. He is currently failing. He has not yet failed.

And to me that second one isn't even about positivity or negativity. I don't really care about Almas and whether he succeeds or fails. But I certainly wouldn't say he's failed on the main roster just yet. If WWE ended right now, his career thus far on the main roster would have been a failure, but that isn't going to happen. To me, in Almas' case he hasn't truly failed until he's released or dropped down to NXT having made no impact.

So yeah to me it's more about extreme language and sweeping statements. Moderate and don't go too far in the criticism.
---

Also, concerning the WWE writer discussion.

Sami Zayn on Talk is Jericho managed to more effectively explain the writing system in a way people can understand that actually is more reasonable. Granted, he still sounds like it's a frustrating system that he doesn't exactly seem too fond of, but he basically said the following:

We shouldn't blame the writers because there are way too many moving parts to the show and that there are so many channels and avenues they need to go through to make any sort of changes to the show (but he makes it seem like he doesn't have any idea what is going to happen on RAW until it happens, which contradicts what Jimmy Jacobs made it seem like with the road writers talking with talent to figure out the next route). Because if they change one thing, it disrupts the whole show and how it works, because there is a certain amount of time allotted to the entire show. Sami also says that if he wants to change one thing, he has to go through the writers, the road agents, and he has to make his way up the chain of command to the top for Vince's approval to get it changed, and that takes way too much time and since the show is sometimes put together so close to the air time, that might not be possible. Jericho chimed in that it's ultimately up to Vince anyway and Vince has his reasons (though, admittedly, he did seem more frank and probably the most anti-Vince I have ever heard him to be, which is mildly critical).

So like, this all makes a lot more sense than anything Jimmy Jacobs has to tell us. But it does prove this entire system is still absolutely busted, and Sami seems to understand that. And Sami seems to conflate the argument that people blame the writers for pushes and such when I don't think fans say that for the most part, so I don't agree with his reasoning here, especially when people who complain about the writers usually blame them for actual writing issues and crappy segments, which granted aren't always their fault in their defense. But the fact that everyone acts like this is a delicately balanced house of cards and that one thing can disrupt it (despite them having to re-write and change things so close to the actual show starting and giving it a poor foundation as a result), and that they are purely at the whim of this broken system or more horribly Vince McMahon just proves this system is absolutely awful and should be changed to something that isn't a total mess that hurts everyone except for the one guy who keeps ruining everything.
---

XIII_rocks posted...

Likewise declaring Almas a failure in WWE is wrong at this moment in time. He is currently failing. He has not yet failed.

Literally everyone who discussed this made this exact statement except for Rock, who said he can't be failing right now because he could end up not failing in the future. Like everyone used this wording.
---

NBIceman posted...

What kind of state would the women's division be in right now if they hadn't signed Rousey and fallen completely ass-backwards into Lynch getting hot?

See this sums it up to me

WWE are stupid and dumb but they are either partly or wholly responsible for both of those things. "They signed Rousey" - so don't they, y'know get the credit for signing Rousey? "Lynch getting hot" - Lynch took the ball and ran with it, absolutely, but WWE put her in a title match at Summerslam and when Lynch turned heel built a long-term angle with Charlotte. Like they didn't turn her heel for her to do nothing. There was a plan in place, and then Becky exceeded expectations. So while Becky deserves tremendous credit, WWE at least gave her the platform for that. They gave her the airtime and the segments and the promotion and those videos on YouTube.

To answer your question, the women's revolution would have been about the same as the men's roster: oversaturated, bogged down by rematches and poor writing. Which is what the goal was the whole time, no?
---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Likewise declaring Almas a failure in WWE is wrong at this moment in time. He is currently failing. He has not yet failed.

Literally everyone who discussed this made this exact statement except for Rock, who said he can't be failing right now because he could end up not failing in the future. Like everyone used this wording.

I said his position is fine relative to most guys on the roster, i.e. he's going out and having good matches with top tier talent on the show.

Get back to me when he's jobbing to the Mojo Rawleys or No Way Jose's of the main roster.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Get back to me when he's jobbing to the Mojo Rawleys or No Way Jose's of the main roster.

That would require those guys to win matches. How about I get back to you when he starts losing his entrance on TV
---

Also main reason WWE doesn't deserve full credit for grabbing Rousey is if she wasn't exposed in the UFC she'd probably still be there. It was more Ronda than WWE that is to credit (blame?) for WWE picking her up
---

Eh, I don't know what WWE has done to continually warrant the benefit of the doubt.

Like they have shown, especially since 2015, a lack of ability to do anything worthwhile at any spot on the card. The exceptions have been rare.

Better to just assume theyre going to fuck whatever theyre doing up and enjoy the pleasant surprises like Ronda and Becky when they happen.
---

NBIceman posted...

Purely a devil's advocate question here: does the WWE even deserve that much credit for the "Women's Revolution" finally working?

What kind of state would the women's division be in right now if they hadn't signed Rousey and fallen completely ass-backwards into Lynch getting hot?

I would say they do. I don't know if you're implying that Rousey and Becky's finally being given a chance are the reason that the Women's Revolution finally worked, but they were doing awesome stuff long before Rousey was signed. It wasn't as consistent, but it was a lot better than the days prior to it. I think people give Ronda way too much credit for things just because she's a big, mainstream name who happens to be a natural wrestler but a below average promo.

The Becky thing was them finally listening for once, and giving a person who the audience wanted a real chance. It doesn't hurt that Becky has a ton of talent, and an back up her in ring work with outstanding mic skills. That's something the women's division is really missing. They don't really have a lot of people that are the total package. Alexa is amazing on the mic, but not so much in the ring. Paige was great all around, but she had to retire. Charlotte is great in the ring, but only works on the mic as a heel. As said above, Ronda can't cut a promo. Same with Sasha and Bayley, every time they talk it's cringeworthy. I have no idea how good of a promo Asuka is since she doesn't seem to be given extended mic time, but I would assume there's a reason for that. I think Ruby has a ton of potential. They just have to be willing to take a few chances instead of always going the safe route. I love that they finally put the belt on Asuka, even if it was way too late.

Personally, I kind of look at the Wrestlemania match between Charlotte, Becky, and Sasha as when things really kicked off. The women were actually getting front and center on the advertisements and all of that stuff. There could very well be stuff before that point that was noteworthy, but that's when I thought I started really noticing a shift.
---

bigger question: where is women's wrestling right now without ronda getting over in ufc?
---

XIII_rocks posted...

Idk I think we came to a compromise there. I blame WWE, I just don't think fans should be absolved of blame too. The vanity of smarks wanting their own complaints to stand out leads to extra criticisms that either don't matter or that are outright lies.

You are literally Vince McMahon. You don't understand no matter how many times it's explained to you that other people don't like everything you do. Other people aren't lying or making shit up just because they criticize something you didn't think was that bad.

Okay, let's blame the fans for...what, again? When WWE doesn't entertain me, what exactly have I done wrong? How can I be a better fan who will enjoy anything that I'm told to? I'm tired of being a bad, stupid fan who starts watching a show less and less often because it fails to entertain me. Teach me how to be a good fan.
---

Steiner posted...

bigger question: where is women's wrestling right now without ronda getting over in ufc?

Becky vs Charlotte is the biggest possible match and the heat runs its course in the midcard.
---

The_Red_Scare posted...

You are literally Vince McMahon. You don't understand no matter how many times it's explained to you that other people don't like everything you do. Other people aren't lying or making shit up just because they criticize something you didn't think was that bad.

Again. This isn't a WWE-exclusive phenomenon and I'd point you to Game of Thrones or The Last Jedi as further examples of contrived internet criticism for a popular piece of media.

Like remember that little fight Rey and Luke had in The Last Jedi where Luke absolutely clowned her in like under 10 seconds flat but she pulled her lightsaber on him? People were so fixated on criticising the movie and its "feminist agenda" that they used that scene as an example of Rey being "OP" even though she was thoroughly beaten.

Or when a sports team is doing badly, people will start trying to come up with new reasons why because the most obvious ones have already been taken. Is that not something you've ever encountered? I don't think attacking me as if I'm some propagandist when I'm actually saying WWE are bad and that this is something all internet fans tend to do is constructive.

I also haven't gotten into other things WWE fans do that are distasteful such as the "we are awesome" chant or the Iron Man countdown or half the shit NXT fans do. So yeah certainly not ridiculous to criticise WWE fans...and not even new? I've seen plenty of that in these topics over the years.
---

I don't doubt a non negligible amount of people pick out complaints because they're unique complaints but I doubt it's the majority, particularly for a product like WWE where the numbers don't lie and people are leaving watching it in droves
---

No, I don't see a meaningful number of people just making up weird things to complain about for no reason. By and large people complain about stuff they legitimately didn't like, then someone else comes along and gets mad that people aren't agreeing with them and act like it's hypocrisy when two different people have different opinions. People are skeptical of the WWE because they've seen the WWE disappoint them time and time again. You can think they're bad but not *that* bad all you want, it doesn't magically make *me* enjoy their shows more and you have yet to explain how it's my fault that a show I'd like to consistently enjoy ends up frequently disappointing me.
---

This really sounds like "I see complaints I don't agree with and so I just assume people are just making them up to complain about something, so you're at fault"

Like, you're acting like just because some people might complain just to complain, that somehow makes most of the complaints invalid and it absolves WWE of most of the blame. That's pretty ridic.
---

StealThisSheen posted...

This really sounds like "I see complaints I don't agree with and so I just assume people are just making them up to complain about something, so you're at fault"

Funny you should say this. I once told PB1 to chill out in one of these topics because I felt he was forcing criticism and made that exact same statement - that WWE give you enough reasons, why stretch to find more? And you agreed. I specifically remember this.

You both seem to be tied to the idea that this is something only WWE fans do. It happens all over. And I don't necessarily think it's a conscious lie, more a sort of forced truth? Like chances are if you're desperately stretching to make up a new criticism you disliked the show anyway. So WWE put on a show this person disliked. It was just the reason they posted was forced. Or the extent to which it is problematic was exaggerated.

StealThisSheen posted...

Like, you're acting like just because some people might complain just to complain, that somehow makes most of the complaints invalid and it absolves WWE of most of the blame. That's pretty ridic.

Hoooooly shit ok there's obviously been a breakdown in communication here

that somehow makes most of the complaints invalid

Definitely not and I'd be interested to know where you're getting that from

and it absolves WWE of most of the blame.

Again, no, since I've called WWE bad or dumb like a dozen times itt

What's "ridic" here are your attempts to paint me as some kind of WWE shill. Talk about stretching and contriving.

Look, my basic point right now is: there is a definite section of fans that go out of their way to shit on WWE as a company and approach the company with an extremely negative mindset. That this has happened is mostly WWE's fault for being such a shitty company, but it exists nonetheless.

Do you disagree with that? I didn't think that was a particularly controversial idea. The stuff about forcing criticism is just an offshoot of approaching it with a negative mindset.
---

Look, my basic point right now is: there is a definite section of fans that go out of their way to s*** on WWE as a company and approach the company with an extremely negative mindset. That this has happened is mostly WWE's fault for being such a s***ty company, but it exists nonetheless.

There's obviously a section of fans like this, yeah, but I think it's tiny compared to the section that despises the company for perfectly legitimate reasons. And I don't think there's anyone in this topic that belongs to that first section.
---

Lopen posted...

I don't doubt a non negligible amount of people pick out complaints because they're unique complaints but I doubt it's the majority, particularly for a product like WWE where the numbers don't lie and people are leaving watching it in droves

Certainly isn't the majority but it doesn't help discussion at all. If you missed a Raw and them see a topic trashing it for 5 or 6 different reasons from different people, you might think that's pretty bad. But if it's 12 or 13 different reasons you'll think it was diabolically bad. Regardless of the fact that the extra 6 or 7 reasons were mountains out of molehills or vain affectations.
---

XIII_rocks posted...

Look, my basic point right now is: there is a definite section of fans that go out of their way to shit on WWE as a company and approach the company with an extremely negative mindset. That this has happened is mostly WWE's fault for being such a shitty company, but it exists nonetheless.

Do you disagree with that? I didn't think that was a particularly controversial idea. The stuff about forcing criticism is just an offshoot of approaching it with a negative mindset.

I disagree with it on the grounds that the only thing suggesting it's true is you saying that people complaining about things you thought were fine is proof that the fans are wrong as opposed to proof that those people didn't like it as much as you did. And it's just plain bizarre to keep harping on it in this topic when this whole discussion stemmed from people here who have explained their reasons for not being very keen on the WWE and yet you just keep on going on about these mysterious other people who are totally part of the problem as if their alleged behavior would somehow reflect on the entirely unrelated people you're talking to.
---

NBIceman posted...

There's obviously a section of fans like this, yeah, but I think it's tiny compared to the section that despises the company for perfectly legitimate reasons. And I don't think there's anyone in this topic that belongs to that first section.

Those two things aren't separate. You can despise WWE as a company for perfectly legitimate reasons and go into a Wrestlemania ready to, or even wanting to, shit on it even though the show itself might be excellent. You can also detach your disgust for the company from the shows they put on (as many are still doing).

War nailed it earlier really. People show up to WWE shows partly to chant CM Punk as a way of sticking it to WWE, even while giving them money.
---

Your numbers would probably be closer to realistic if there were like 12 valid problems and 1 hyperbolic one rather than 6 and 7. Most complaints I've read from sources that aren't YouTube comment pages are generally worth complaining about.

Sometimes if there is excessive complaining it's due to excessive mistakes. You being more forgiving doesn't change that.
---

My disgust for the company stems partly from the fact that they put on horrendous wrestling shows.
---

Panthera posted...

I disagree with it on the grounds that the only thing suggesting it's true is you saying that people complaining about things you thought were fine is proof that the fans are wrong

I'm just going to say you're wilfully misunderstanding me at this point and leave it there
---

XIII_rocks posted...

Panthera posted...

I disagree with it on the grounds that the only thing suggesting it's true is you saying that people complaining about things you thought were fine is proof that the fans are wrong

I'm just going to say you're wilfully misunderstanding me at this point and leave it there

lol
---

XIII_rocks posted...

NBIceman posted...

There's obviously a section of fans like this, yeah, but I think it's tiny compared to the section that despises the company for perfectly legitimate reasons. And I don't think there's anyone in this topic that belongs to that first section.

Those two things aren't separate. You can despise WWE as a company for perfectly legitimate reasons and go into a Wrestlemania ready to, or even wanting to, shit on it even though the show itself might be excellent. You can also detach your disgust for the company from the shows they put on (as many are still doing).

War nailed it earlier really. People show up to WWE shows partly to chant CM Punk as a way of sticking it to WWE, even while giving them money.

War was calling this stupid not smart.
---

XIII_rocks posted...

You can also detach your disgust for the company from the shows they put on (as many are still doing).

I mean I think most of us here do that

But it's the shows causing the disgust
---

WWE compares itself to all content on television, so I think it's only fair that I do the same. That way, I'm playing ball by WWE's rules and I'm not going out of my way to be a problem fan that independently creates a negative experience for the product before it has a chance to prove itself.

So let's all name shows currently running on TV that are better than RAW!
---

Ooh, ooh, I'll go first!

Smackdown LIVE!
---

The first show I'll name is soon to return for its second season: The Orville!
---

I like that fireplace thing they always bring out this time of year
---

Caught up with 205 and that street fight was a lot crazier than I was expecting.
---

UFC just moved a PPV from Las Vegas to California on 6 days notice because Jon Jones tested dirty again and Nevada wouldnt license him

Your turn again for a scummy promoter move Vince!
---

DC never beating Jon Jones is truly the darkest timeline
---

Something I took away from Kurt Angles Hall of Fame speech was never be afraid to make a fool of yourself and dont take yourself too seriously. I really let that sink in and ran with it. In my career Ive had several different paths and character turns. I was a manager in NXT, then I was the last draft pick and then with James Ellsworth as a champion. I feel its important to show different sides of my character and I never take myself too seriously. Ill never be like oh thats too silly for me or Carmellas too cool for that. Any opportunity I get I want to make the most of it and Im not afraid to look like an idiot. Some people take themselves way too seriously, but its WWE the E stands for entertainment and thats what I want to bring to it. Anyone can go out and have a match but its a matter of connecting with the fans and making them react one way or another, whether its making them laugh, or get mad, or be happy. Youve got to make them feel some sort of way. Whatever it is I have to do to achieve that, I want to do the best I can.

Carmella seems like a super cool person.
---

yeah she was a way better blonde though
---

I disagree.
---

Well I'm going to take the next 40 posts to tell you why you are wrong and how wwe is going to cause world war 3
---

Will I be able to view WW3 on the network?
---

You currently can watch WW3 on the network!
---

Eddv posted...

War was calling this stupid not smart.

I am too. I don't like that type of fan. That's the type of fan I'm talking about, someone who shows up to shit on the company.
---

Eddv posted...

You currently can watch WW3 on the network!

I'm glad eddv caught this.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Something I took away from Kurt Angles Hall of Fame speech was never be afraid to make a fool of yourself and dont take yourself too seriously. I really let that sink in and ran with it. In my career Ive had several different paths and character turns. I was a manager in NXT, then I was the last draft pick and then with James Ellsworth as a champion. I feel its important to show different sides of my character and I never take myself too seriously. Ill never be like oh thats too silly for me or Carmellas too cool for that. Any opportunity I get I want to make the most of it and Im not afraid to look like an idiot. Some people take themselves way too seriously, but its WWE the E stands for entertainment and thats what I want to bring to it. Anyone can go out and have a match but its a matter of connecting with the fans and making them react one way or another, whether its making them laugh, or get mad, or be happy. Youve got to make them feel some sort of way. Whatever it is I have to do to achieve that, I want to do the best I can.

Carmella seems like a super cool person.

how's this take: Angle's career is perceived a level lower than it had the potential to be because he allowed himself to be booked as a silly comedy guy when tough, no nonsense, business kurt angle could have been an all time top 10 act in the business
---