Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 465: La Somber

(+) Yeah! (+)

FWIW she tapped out Charlotte to win
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I mean what you're arguing is that in a triple threat between Triple H, Austin and Taka Michinoku that Taka would be the fan favorite because he's more of a babyface than Austin.

Taka is a bit extreme but strait laced babyfaces werent really a thing at the time!
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Not that these numbers truly matter, but

8 p.m. 1.75 million viewers
9 p.m. 1.79 million viewers
10 p.m. 1.78 million viewers

New record low Raw

Will New Years Eve do even worse? You would think so but we will see
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Eddv posted...

Asuka is clearly a level below the other two so no one wants to watch her win again.

Based on what measure, exactly?

Not the booking if they're going to have her actually win
Not the skill level
Not the crowd reaction

Asuka is only damaged goods to the point WWE is unwilling to give her the ball. If WWE is then there is no problem.
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Eddv u crazy, Asuka is great and definitely not below Becky or Charlotte at all
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Eddv posted...

I mean what you're arguing is that in a triple threat between Triple H, Austin and Taka Michinoku that Taka would be the fan favorite because he's more of a babyface than Austin.

Taka is a bit extreme but strait laced babyfaces werent really a thing at the time!

I thought this was a big insult to Asuka, but Taka was very hot at one point
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TAKA was probably more over than Triple H was when they force fed him the ball the first time
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Keep in mind I watch this shite just at PPV time but I watch that TLC match. 2 of those ladies got great reactions and one was an afterthought.

When the afterthought wins to become champion thats gonna hurt your houseshows when you run the rematch.
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I didn't watch TLC but Asuka got good reactions in the build. Either you allowed your perception color reactions or TLC was a weird crowd but yeah
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So Lopen is in fact arguing that Taka would be the one the crowd would favor in a hypothetical Taka/Austin/Triple H match.

Ok then.
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Eddv posted...

So Lopen is in fact arguing that Taka would be the one the crowd would favor in a hypothetical Taka/Austin/Triple H match.

Ok then.

They'd favor Austin but TAKA was more over than Triple H when that match was actually possible. TAKA was gone well before Triple H earned reactions that fit his booking
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Yeah, I have no idea what match Ed was watching. The three biggest pops of the night for entrances came from the final match. All three.
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Eddv posted...

Keep in mind I watch this shite just at PPV time but I watch that TLC match. 2 of those ladies got great reactions and one was an afterthought.

When the afterthought wins to become champion thats gonna hurt your houseshows when you run the rematch.

We must be watching different TLC matches because all three got good reactions.
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Fine whatever I am a literal crazy person for thinking Becky and Charlotte are Actual Stars and that Asuka is not.

People still walked out on the match. Almost like... They disliked it or something.

Wonder why.

Couldn't be that the least popular one was guaranteed to win.
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Or women are still struggling to win over average house show goer.

Like if you love Becky and Charlotte so much, would you really buy a ticket only to bail on your opportunity mere minutes before the show ends?
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Eddv posted...

Couldn't be that the least popular one was guaranteed to win.

That doesn't explain them walking out on a Ronda win

It's almost as if your logic is faulty and Rock is right that it's more a case of house show crowds just aren't into the women main eventing yet
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Or because Nia Jax sucks.

I would walk out of a Nia Jax match.
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Eddv posted...

Or because Nia Jax sucks.

I would walk out of a Nia Jax match.

You would walk out of anything that wasn't a Cena strip tease
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I really want Becky to step to aj styles

Aj says he wont hit a woman

Becky says she identifies as the man and punches aj and then aj just goes at it
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I mean, let's be real here

Women shouldn't be main eventing yet, going on crowd reactions. Becky vs Ronda is the only one you could feasibly main event with in a way that feels organic, and you'd need a strong feud to back that one up. The rest just feel like "we're giving the women a main event spot because ~equality~"

Like Asuka's reactions aren't at that level I'll admit, but Charlotte's aren't either. And I suspect among the audience at large Ronda is the only one that touches the reactions needed and only among UFC fans. Becky's reaction is likely NXT star-like in that your crazies who actually buy tickets are way more into her than the people at home.

It's nothing against the women but they just haven't really done anything to justify the portion of the card the women have received lately. It hasn't been gradual in a way that works. They get more segments but the weight behind those segments isn't there yet.
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I don't think it's a ridiculous idea to suggest that the woman who's spent all of her recent history doing little more than hitting opponents with her ass and not being treated as a serious competitor has lost a good bit of her shine as a potential star. Maybe, just maybe, what WWE is telling you isn't true, and you can't just rebuild a wrestler from months of bad booking with one big win whenever you want.

That said, I don't have my finger nearly enough on the pulse of current WWE fans to say for sure.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Eddv posted...

Or because Nia Jax sucks.

I would walk out of a Nia Jax match.

You would walk out of anything that wasn't a Cena strip tease

I mean have you BEEN to a house show?

They can be a real slog and when the thing youre waiting around for is like Edge vs Kane in a cage match, beating traffic suddenly seems worth it.
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Lopen posted...

Women shouldn't be main eventing yet, going on crowd reactions. Becky vs Ronda is the only one you could feasibly main event with in a way that feels organic, and you'd need a strong feud to back that one up. The rest just feel like "we're giving the women a main event spot because ~equality~"

Do you think TLC main event felt inorganic?
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On a positive note, supposedly Mustafa Ali was very over in his hometown of Chicago against Bryan and Miz
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Also Charlotte isn't a huge star.

Charlotte is HHH. Hell, her getting pushed consistently for 3+ years and only becoming relevant to mainstream media was because of Becky.

Basically, Becky is Austin, Charlotte is HHH, and Asuka is... Mankind? Only one of these three is gonna be a huge potential cross over star. And sure as hell ain't gonna be the woman who's won, what, 8 titles already? Her chance to get big came and went. Hell, she's not even out of her father's shadow yet.
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Eddv posted...

Fine whatever I am a literal crazy person for thinking Becky and Charlotte are Actual Stars and that Asuka is not.

People still walked out on the match. Almost like... They disliked it or something.

By your logic none of them are over because you would theoretically stay for one star you like.
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Jakyl25 posted...

On a positive note, supposedly Mustafa Ali was very over in his hometown of Chicago against Bryan and Miz

I'm trying to figure out if they're legit building towards Ali vs. Bryan for the RR. They legit might be.
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I walked out on Taker/Roman at WM33.

Mostly because Taker was 4 years removed from his last good match.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Women shouldn't be main eventing yet, going on crowd reactions. Becky vs Ronda is the only one you could feasibly main event with in a way that feels organic, and you'd need a strong feud to back that one up. The rest just feel like "we're giving the women a main event spot because ~equality~"

Do you think TLC main event felt inorganic?

Bryan vs AJ should've been the main event, looking at the card. If that wasn't on the show you could maybe run it in the ME but that speaks more to the show's card being weak than anything.

To be fair I would put the builds as about equal, but the WWE Title inherently adds a bit of weight over the Smackdown Women's Title due to its history, and AJ Styles and Daniel Bryan are both way more over than any of the three.

You need sustained months of good builds for women's matches for them to organically be in the ME slot.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

Fine whatever I am a literal crazy person for thinking Becky and Charlotte are Actual Stars and that Asuka is not.

People still walked out on the match. Almost like... They disliked it or something.

By your logic none of them are over because you would theoretically stay for one star you like.

I loved Edge.

You could not have paid me to stay and watch him fight Kane for 25 minutes during his final title run.
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Asuka isn't 40+ year old Kane.
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So you're saying being over doesn't matter at all. In which case, again, none of that proves or disproves Asuka is popular. The only thing you can measure at this point is pops, and Asuka gets them. Hell, Asuka was getting bigger pops than Charlotte in November and December.
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I think that the women basically have two main eventers.

Then Charlotte just because theyve done a good job protecting her. In the TLC I woukd say she definitely got the weakest reaction at first but then won over the crowds respect with how vicious she got.

People like Nia Jax and Asuka are another level below her before you start getting into people who are basically midcard people like Nattie and Ruby and then a whole slate of jobbers.
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Yeah, if your argument is "People won't stay for their favorite wrestler if they don't like the opponent," then that literally can't be used to prove or disprove how over somebody is, since Ronda didn't get people to stay despite being over, so you can't say "People left because Asuka isn't over."
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I think Asuka being 1999 Mankind and Charlotte being 1999 Triple H to Becky's 1999 Steve Austin is a good comparison of how over they are. I would say 1999 Mankind was more over than Triple H, and neither one of them were anywhere near Austin.

Unfortunately the entire lump sum of them are well below their parallels in terms of actually being over, so you need Austin (Becky) vs Rock (Ronda) and with a damn good build to actually main event credibly.
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I said "people werent interested in staying to see Asuka win" which is really the only thing you need to stay to the end for.

I think overall Lopen has the right of it - while Becky and Ronda are over enough to anchor main events they dont REALLY have anyone able to fight them that are any level of popular other than maybe Charlotte because shes the only heel even remotely close to them.
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Eddv posted...

I said "people werent interested in staying to see Asuka win" which is really the only thing you need to stay to the end for.

I think overall Lopen has the right of it - while Becky and Ronda are over enough to anchor main events they dont REALLY have anyone able to fight them that are any level of popular other than maybe Charlotte because shes the only heel even remotely close to them.

Lopen's more or less agreeing with us though that women main eventing aren't yet a big draw, not that people just aren't interested in seeing Asuka win. The first very much doesn't really imply the latter in any way.
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I think the difference between us is you put the meat of the gap between Charlotte, Ronda/Becky and the rest I put Charlotte on the other end of it because she's basically just Asuka with a 2 month head start at this point. Remember Carmella beat Charlotte too.
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That said a bit of this is bad luck re:the divisions stars prior to Ronda coming on board.

Paige is out forever, Bliss is out for a while, Nikki is basically retired, AJ has been blackballed and that sums up their most popular acts going back like 10 years.

Its doesnt help that 3 of those 4 acts are rather limited in ring either. Like even if Nikki suddenly unretired she would have a difficult time running a 20 minute main event with Becky.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Eddv posted...

I said "people werent interested in staying to see Asuka win" which is really the only thing you need to stay to the end for.

I think overall Lopen has the right of it - while Becky and Ronda are over enough to anchor main events they dont REALLY have anyone able to fight them that are any level of popular other than maybe Charlotte because shes the only heel even remotely close to them.

Lopen's more or less agreeing with us though that women main eventing aren't yet a big draw, not that people just aren't interested in seeing Asuka win. The first very much doesn't really imply the latter in any way.

What house show match draws more interest?

Austin (c) vs Triple H

Or

Triple H (c) vs Austin.

That's my only point there.
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Eddv posted...

What house show match draws more interest?

Austin (c) vs Triple H

Or

Triple H (c) vs Austin.

That's my only point there.

WWE vs NWA in a nutshell
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What do you feel is the answer to that
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If you're saying Asuka is Mankind (c) rather than TAKA (c) and that Becky should easily have the title over Charlotte or Asuka right now then sure I agree with you there.

Even Becky (c) isn't main event worthy right now though.
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Lopen posted...

If you're saying Asuka is Mankind (c) rather than TAKA (c) and that Becky should easily have the title over Charlotte or Asuka right now then sure I agree with you there.

Even Becky (c) isn't main event worthy right now though.

Yeah I only went Taka because Mankind wasn't really a straitlaced babyface either but in terms of card position is more accurate.
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Oh yeah I think Becky (c) COULD main event but only should main event over Styles/Bryan because its Bryan (c).
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I'm really tenuous on this extended metaphor because while I can live with "Ronda is Ken Shamrock", I don't want to live with "Nia Jax is the Rock". "Mandy Rose is Goldust" is fine though.
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all i want to know is who is thrasher in this metaphor
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WarThaNemesis2 posted...

all i want to know is who is thrasher in this metaphor

Is it Sarah Logan?
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I thought Sarah Logan was Stephanie McMahon because she comes from a family of Hunter's.
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Thrasher is some random girl from NXT they should call up to flesh out the division enough that it can have legitimate Austins and Rocks
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