Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 464: Keep Her Name Out Your Mouth

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah, you would think if he thought so highly of it he'd try to encourage taking cues from it.

What I was most bummed about was that Mike brought up that these writers will yell at fans for saying that they don't understand the stories when they say they suck and they ran out of time, and that Jimmy Jacobs attempted to defend it by making such a bizarre non-answer really quick before his plugs. I can't remember what it was but it was such a weird answer that didn't explain anything.

I feel like I would have rather stayed in the dark than have learned about this, because now I feel even more down on the whole creative process than I did when it still had some mystery to it.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

What I was most bummed about was that Mike brought up that these writers will yell at fans for saying that they don't understand the stories when they say they suck and they ran out of time, and that Jimmy Jacobs attempted to defend it by making such a bizarre non-answer really quick before his plugs.

it was "and mike, there's no easy answer"

i was so fucking mad, we're not suggesting an easy answer necessarily but that was like saying "nothing would work!".
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FinaIFantasyV posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Also he said that you have to script promos because no one but Owens and Cena can ad-lib

Maybe part of the reason why is because THATS NOT TAUGHT BY WWE

This is fucking bullshit!

HHH cant adlib?
Samoa Joe cant adlib?
The fucking Miz cant adlib?

A quote from the interview: "Vince McMahon doesn't really trust anyone but John [Cena]."
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Steiner posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

What I was most bummed about was that Mike brought up that these writers will yell at fans for saying that they don't understand the stories when they say they suck and they ran out of time, and that Jimmy Jacobs attempted to defend it by making such a bizarre non-answer really quick before his plugs.

it was "and mike, there's no easy answer"

i was so fucking mad, we're not suggesting an easy answer necessarily but that was like saying "nothing would work!".

"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas."
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when wrestlers were good promos there were never 15 minute promos in the ring. you'd get 2 minutes backstage talking about an issue and then build the show around matches. the idea that nobody would know what to say for 15 minutes in a promo without scripting so we have to script everything to death still has me so mad.
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Steiner posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

What I was most bummed about was that Mike brought up that these writers will yell at fans for saying that they don't understand the stories when they say they suck and they ran out of time, and that Jimmy Jacobs attempted to defend it by making such a bizarre non-answer really quick before his plugs.

it was "and mike, there's no easy answer"

i was so fucking mad, we're not suggesting an easy answer necessarily but that was like saying "nothing would work!".

Thank you. I thought there was more to it, but maybe that was it, but it blended so much into his plugs.

But yeah. The nothing would work line. Like what. If there was a failure in the company and my boss asked me for a solution and I said "Well, I don't think anything could work" when there are literally a million solutions to do anything different, then how stupid would I look?
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"there's no easy answer so we're not even gonna try"
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Although as much as I'd like to believe these people don't need writers as much as Vince thinks they do, Ronda is online calling Lynch "Backwards Bullshit Becky" and implying Becky stole her underwear.

So maybe they actually do.
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I would legit rather everyone on the show come out with their own shit and some of them be complete off the wall fucking lunatics like ronda turns out to be whenever she talks herself than everyone having the same voice and saying the same corporate lines and buzzwords and garbage that people don't say
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I'd rather Ronda literally never speak and finally give Heyman someone new to work with.

Like Ronda is such a weird situation where she appears to be a savant in the ring and completely clueless on the mic.
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i was defending ronda's mic work in here a few weeks ago and i'll still say i like her intensity but she just says the weirdest shit and is so unlikable

but that's a better character on a wrestling show than interchangeable corporate drone!
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I don't even understand why Jacobs, of all people, still feels this loyalty to Vince.
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NBIceman posted...

I don't even understand why Jacobs, of all people, still feels this loyalty to Vince.

Because Vince gave him chances after he fucked up and probably feels like he let him down after the fact.
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Im most depressed by the mindset that if Seth Rollins vs Baron Corbin in a TLC match cant pop ratings, nothing can

Like I know Seth is his boy and all but come on
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aww man, I sawall the replies I expected at least one to respond to my post
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I turned on Smackdown and man that opening pissed me off.

The women are super hot and airing their legit heat inducing grievances.

Vince? GET OVER IT YA WHINY BITCHES. ALSO ISNT ASUKA GREAT. HER TITLE WIN WAS SO LEGITIMATE.

Like way to undercut your 3 hottest acts and your potentially really hot angles. By minimizing becky and Charlotte and coddling/babying Asuka to shield her from what should be a fairly obvious and legitimate question her character is addressing.

I don't know how you people do this shit.
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At least it was Vince doing it and not Stephanie <_<
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ScareChan posted...

aww man, I sawall the replies I expected at least one to respond to my post

I assume that's because everybody was just in complete agreement. For a company that very much believes it's about the moments over the matches, they really suck at creating moments.
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The hiring process he talked about was neat. Had to book the 5 top matches for WM and how to get there.

I imagine most of Jacobs samples included heels making grandiose statements about some societal hypocrisy
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Imagine the guy that threw out "Bryan is an evil vegan who is better than you"on the road to Mania

and they didnt give him the job and pitched the idea themselves
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Making my way through Final Battle tonight and I just want to mention that Caprice Coleman is the worst commentator in a major league wrestling company today. And think of the ground that covers.
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NBIceman posted...

ScareChan posted...

aww man, I sawall the replies I expected at least one to respond to my post

I assume that's because everybody was just in complete agreement. For a company that very much believes it's about the moments over the matches, they really suck at creating moments.

I mean look no further than TLC.

Every attempt to create a "Moment" fell flat.

Even the ones that should have been nearly unbotchable.

And then there's Seth "omg a fist what do I do" Rollins.
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TheRock1525 posted...

I'd rather Ronda literally never speak and finally give Heyman someone new to work with.

Like Ronda is such a weird situation where she appears to be a savant in the ring and completely clueless on the mic.

I agree completely. She needs to stop trying to spar with Becky online since she just makes herself look worse each time she attempts it.
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This week's episode of The Fix with Todd Martin is excellent and very much in line with my own thoughts on WWE right now. I'll transcribe some later and maybe even upload it somewhere

Brief summary though : this week's shows were the worst of all the recent shows because they were so insulting to our intelligence and so revealing of the fact the company has no idea what is wrong

https://drive.google.com/open?id=192FdlWS9Z0gGxlov0c85JZicgSFt6I9W

give a listen if you're looking for any audio content this week

STElNER posted...

Brief summary though : this week's shows were the worst of all the recent shows because they were so insulting to our intelligence and so revealing of the fact the company has no idea what is wrong

I have started the podcast - and while Todds vision sounds good I do think that there is a bit more room for the fantastical and the funny than he's kind of suggesting. Like big goofy wedding angles for instance are every bit the big part of wrestling as Bret Hart's out wrestling the shit out of everyone was. But in general he is right. I think ultimately Nikki Bella is the smartest WWE character because she's the only one who understood the truth of WWE - wins and loss DONT matter and the characters SHOULD just embrace that given that its reality.

I'll go one further though - they don't even really understand what's right. Like if you were seeking to re tool your program, even if I didn't know what was wrong I would LATCH to the things that are working - Strowman, Ronda, Elias on raw, Bryan, Becky/Charlotte/Asuka, and Rusev on smackdown and just sort of hand them the keys. They don't even have the awareness to do that.

Hell Paige and Corbin aren't even remotely what was wrong! Corbin got a hell of a reaction Monday even.
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Eddv posted...

I turned on Smackdown and man that opening pissed me off.

The women are super hot and airing their legit heat inducing grievances.

Vince? GET OVER IT YA WHINY BITCHES. ALSO ISNT ASUKA GREAT. HER TITLE WIN WAS SO LEGITIMATE.

Like way to undercut your 3 hottest acts and your potentially really hot angles. By minimizing becky and Charlotte and coddling/babying Asuka to shield her from what should be a fairly obvious and legitimate question her character is addressing.

I don't know how you people do this shit.

This has been the WWE way for years now. For whatever reason whenever the McMahons show up, especially if they haven't been on TV in a while, their top priority is always to pick something that may be popular and do everything they can to make it seem dumb
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Eddv posted...

and while Todds vision sounds good I do think that there is a bit more room for the fantastical and the funny than he's kind of suggesting

todd presents a more nuanced take on this at some point which is that it's fine if these angles come from a place other than ultimately trying to be funny. they can be funny while serving a larger purpose, if the wrestlers and personalities involved are funny, but they shouldn't be written for the purpose of being funny

Eddv posted...

Hell Paige and Corbin aren't even remotely what was wrong! Corbin got a hell of a reaction Monday even.

this is absolutely true. was maddening listening to observer this week and bryan kept being like, AND THEN THEY ANNOUNCED A CORBIN MAIN EVENT! and i know i was the guy a few weeks ago saying "maybe they shouldn't announce baron corbin is main eventing" but at this point yeah, he's so far from being the problem and the fact they are trying to pin the problems on him in storyline is so infuriating. who could believe baron corbin is remotely responsible for the shit that makes you want to turn off raw? even if the thing that makes you turn off raw IS baron corbin, we know he's not the one responsible for it!

I mean ultimately I think the concept of "Triple H plays the role of Jack Tunney" is basically the best idea he had.
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STElNER posted...

even if the thing that makes you turn off raw IS baron corbin, we know he's not the one responsible for it!

we do but I'm not sure the whole audience does
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Eddv posted...

I'll go one further though - they don't even really understand what's right.

This take just totally blew my mind

Thats the EXACT right way to look at it
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7 new Observer Hall of Famers this year

WRESTLERS
L.A. Park
Yuji Nagata

NON-WRESTLERS
Jimmy Hart
Gary Hart
Howard Finkel

JOURNALISTS
Bill Apter

PROMOTERS
Jerry Jarrett
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Nagata's a good pick, carried the promotion during a dark time when everything was done to cut him at the knees.
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Results for nominees people in this topic might care about

Kenny Omega was added to the ballot this year and already 49% voted for him (it takes 60% to get in)

CIMAs percentage went down from 33% to 24%, which seems absurd to me because this year more than ever proved his importance

C.M. Punk fell from 24% to 12%

Tetsuya Naito is only at 21% which is strange to me considering the percentage Omega got.
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voltch posted...

Nagata's a good pick, carried the promotion during a dark time when everything was done to cut him at the knees.

The ballots from active wrestlers carried him in. He just barely crossed the threshold, and he was the #1 overall vote-getter from that group

Nagatas voting was unique. He made the Hall of Fame due to finishing first among current wrestlers, who voted him in almost unanimously. He was only 24th among reporters, 17th among historians, and didnt place among former wrestlers. Its a notable induction, because even though he had a long career as a top star, he was never really a legendary star. But he was so well respected as a worker, Bryan Danielson, in fact, called Nagata the best wrestler hes ever been in the ring with, that it put him just over the threshold, with 101 votes, the exact number needed to hit 60 percent from Japan.

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We're getting to the point where the Observer Hall of Fame should just say "btw Mexico doesn't exist"
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"But L.A. Park" you may say, but let's not pretend for a second Park would get in if he didn't work so many shows in the US and/or with English commentary.
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Daves big star ratings for the week featuring TLC, Final Battle, and the final NJPW show of 2018

*****
Golden Lovers vs Tanahashi/Ospreay

****3/4
Bryan vs Styles

****1/2
Briscoes vs SCU vs Young Bucks
Flair vs Lynch vs Asuka

****1/4
Cobb vs Page

****
Sabre Jr vs Gresham

***3/4
Gordon vs Bully Ray
Rousey vs Jax
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WarThaNemesis2 posted...

We're getting to the point where the Observer Hall of Fame should just say "btw Mexico doesn't exist"

Yeah, of the 10 biggest vote getters that didnt get in, 5 are Mexican stars who probably should be

Los Misioneros de la Muerte
Jun Akiyama
Ultimo Guerrero
Villano III
Akira Taue
Sgt. Slaughter
Edge
Jim Crockett Sr
Kenny Omega
Cien Caras
Dr. Wagner Jr.

(Caras and Wagner tied for 10th)
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Also, Mistico/Sin Cara/Mystyzyz/Caristicos percentage DROPPED

He might be the only Flair/Thesz Award winner to ever not get in
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Jakyl25 posted...

****3/4
Bryan vs Styles

Man it was good but it wasnt this
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I am surprised Apter wasn't already in
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Bryan and Styles did a match completely different in both feel and pacing to a WWE match. It was as if they both, given they had extensive experience working different styles, felt like they were going to do a New Japan style main event in WWE. The pacing and feel was different, and the match was far more cerebral than the usual WWE style and worked to look more realistic and serious, like a strategic fight for a real championship.

His gushing take
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Eddv posted...

I am surprised Apter wasn't already in

He said (not specifically about Apter, but in general) that the voter base shifted younger this year as some older perennial voters died off

Maybe the younger generation has fonder memories of the Apter mags

He mentioned how Bruno would get pissed if Apter ever made up a quote from him for the kayfabe magazine stories
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I think Meltzer has kinda like, lost his way with the star ratings over the years. Like I imagine him watching a match with a notepad and a pen and assigning bonuses based on cool spots and execution rather than just taking it in as a whole, which is why we get so many high star rating matches out of the guy because there are a lot of matches that are technically check all the boxes these days, but fail to really get that amount of hype and excitement because of something missing in the build or just an intangible "feel" to the match.

Lance Storm had a Figure Four Daily with Bryan Alvarez recently and I feel like he hit the nail on the head with how I see Meltzer lately. He basically had a rant on the guy saying that this is "the best time ever to be a wrestling fan" or whatever and touched on that.
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What was his argument?
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Well on stuff I agree with he was mostly just pointing out things Dave does. Like, there was a good Daniel Bryan vs AJ Styles match on SD recently and Dave's comments on the match were like "it was good, but it wasn't as good as __ ___ __ from NJPW this week" and it's like "who cares what the star rating was?" He seems to have difficulty just taking a match for what it is these days.

And like, on my end, I'm seeing that kinda mindset where you need to be comparing matches to other matches incessantly rather than just... enjoying the match in the moment, is going to make you view a match differently than you maybe you should. Like is Dave's ***** match really giving him the feeling he had after watching a ***** match in the 80s or 90s, or is he just mathing it out and saying "well this match was better at this than this other one so it needs another 1/4*" and eventually just putting a bunch of matches on a pedestal that maybe don't necessarily deserve to be there because you're just ticking boxes in your head instead of watching the match. Lance didn't really go into that part with a lot of depth-- that's mostly me and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but yeah.

Ultimately Lance was just saying it's subjective and he felt that if you valued things in wrestling outside of the performance like coherent storytelling and builds, good promos, etc it was one of the worst times to be a wrestling fan, but there was some Dave stuff as an aside that I found myself agreeing with.
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I actually don't care about star ratings and I tend to tune Dave out when he mentions them. I tend to think Dave has really good insight when he actually discusses why things do or don't work and I wish he'd stick to that more.

I love listening to Lance though. I actually prefer his show to most of the others now because he's really smart and is able to concisely explain why he feels a way, and I tend to agree with most everything he says.
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i've been listening less and less Meltzer wrestling podcasts and more of his MMA stuff.

The constant bucks/Omega gushing isn't what I'm looking for when I've cooled down on them a lot.
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