Board 8 > Shooting at Madden 2019 tournament done live on twitch.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Fucking EA man
---

Out of curiosity, do people here think this is strictly a guns problem, or a potential cultural problem as well?

I'm extremely vocal about wanting super strict gun control but I'm still not closed to the idea that there's a deeper culture-driven violence at work here that would cause people to just find other ways to kill each other even if we solve the gun problem.
---

Sure they would

Less effective, less wide-ranging ways

In the UK we have acid and knife attacks fairly regularly which are, obviously, awful. But acid and knives aren't guns.
---

guffguy89 posted...

It is quite clear that mass shooting have taken a dramatic step up in recent years and I'd love to see some gun control action taken, but is it to the point where we should be fearful of going to public events or even avoid going to any public event as some people hinted earlier in this topic? I don't think we are quite there yet.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all. There was a shooting nearly every day last year. Not all of them make the news. A good number of them are random, or atleast have victims besides the intended target. Do you think people at a mall expected to get shot, or a movie theater, or a school? Likewise, should you expect shooting to happen at those places? Obviously not. It's not unnatural to see stuff like this and be concerned, because it literally could happen anywhere, beyond your control.
---

Xiahou Shake posted...

Out of curiosity, do people here think this is strictly a guns problem, or a potential cultural problem as well?

I'm extremely vocal about wanting super strict gun control but I'm still not closed to the idea that there's a deeper culture-driven violence at work here that would cause people to just find other ways to kill each other even if we solve the gun problem.

is there anyone who actually thinks this is strictly a gun problem?

i don't honestly believe anyone who has any rationality thinks this. it's absolutely, entirely a culture problem. 100%. and it's a myriad of different cultural problems all coming together, one of those being gun culture (note: i'm not saying all guns are bad, or all gun culture is bad).

like everything else in the world, there isn't just one cause
---

I think it's more of a cultural problem than a gun problem honestly (though I would say it's both). Its just that solving either problem is sufficient and solving a gun problem seems a more straightforward task.
---

XIII_rocks posted...

Lightning Strikes posted...

that has been solved elsewhere.

The problem was never solved elsewhere. The problem never really existed elsewhere, at least not like this. America's gun problem is too broken to fully solve imo. Something should be done, but I don't know how you do anything without punishing law-abiding citizens.

I believe the right to bear arms was a fundamental error in the first place and despise the NRA, so I'm certainly not pro-guns. And I'm not ruling out the possibility of improvement, either, but I think the ease of change here is hugely overstated.

Well in the UK the current gun control laws were brought in as a direct response to the Dunblane massacre. And there hasn't been a school shooting there since. Same with Australia. It never got as out of control as it is in the US, but part of that is going to be because it wasn't allowed to get out of control.

For the record I don't think it'll be an easy change, but absolutely a doable one.

Edit: Also since XIII mentioned acid and knife attacks you better believe there was absolutely a quick legal response to those things.
---

Gun control or not, people who want a gun will find a way to find one.

Those are the people that cause shit like this to happen and its the reason why strict gun laws wont be effective. It will just hinder the law abiding citizens ability to protect themselves from the rogue armed element.
---

I do agree that strict gun laws would probably stop most school shootings as its harder for someone underage to get a gun anyway. That doesnt stop them from using their parents legally obtained guns though which...again... circles back around to if someone wants to find a gun bad enough, they'll find a way.
---

Lightning Strikes posted...

Well in the UK the current gun control laws were brought in as a direct response to the Dunblane massacre. And there hasn't been a school shooting there since. Same with Australia. It never got as out of control as it is in the US, but part of that is going to be because it wasn't allowed to get out of control.

I'm aware of that

I just take issue with your statement that "the problem has been solved elsewhere". They are incomparable situations.
---

Lucavi000 posted...

Gun control or not, people who want a gun will find a way to find one.

While this is true, it doesn't account for random shootings that wouldn't have occurred if the person didn't already have a gun

Not every shooting is planned out with the shooter buying a gun illegally. Many are spur of the moment things, with the person already having a gun or being able to go home and get one. I'd say there's a good chance a lot of these would be stopped if the person had to go buy a gun illegally at that moment instead.
---

Gun control or not, people who want a guy will find a way to find one.

that depends on how much they want a gun and how spontaneous that desire is

I don't buy that every one of these shooters would still end up with a gun if you make them jump through enough hoops to get it.
---

Lucavi000 posted...

Gun control or not, people who want a gun will find a way to find one.

Lucavi000 posted...

It will just hinder the law abiding citizens ability to protect themselves from the rogue armed element.

How can both of these possibly be true?
---

cultural, though i wouldn't associate it to gun culture necessarily. they're just the easiest tools to kill someone with. it's entirely possible for a nation to have a ton of guns and have very few shootings. you could blame a variety of factors - the way we work, the value of popularity, a loss of personal values, mental illness, living conditions, proximity of living around others, etc - but pro gun control tends to finish with the general idea that even if people are violent, it's at least more difficult to kill multiple people with other weapons.

the right tends to be correct when it comes to regulation arguments in that most shootings aren't with legal guns. the ones that are tend to be looked at for what, specifically, made it legal for a person to get and to try to close that. but bear in mind, that's a bit of whack-a-mole of making various specific things illegal and then relying on the argument that it's not legal gun owners, when the gun control arguments are really about a reduction of guns in the first place - they want less supply.

but that then gets into 3D printing and how that's never going to have a chance of happening again.
---

Xiahou Shake posted...

Out of curiosity, do people here think this is strictly a guns problem, or a potential cultural problem as well?

I'm extremely vocal about wanting super strict gun control but I'm still not closed to the idea that there's a deeper culture-driven violence at work here that would cause people to just find other ways to kill each other even if we solve the gun problem.

This is a bizarre phrasing if the issue, it's a combination of problems that feed each other. You don't get a gun culture if you don't enshrine guns as a basic human right.
---

I really think getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as some make it out to be.
---

Xiahou Shake posted...

Out of curiosity, do people here think this is strictly a guns problem, or a potential cultural problem as well?

I certainly think there's a media element to the problem.

Intentional or not, the killer gets glorified. The media releases everything they can on them as soon as it gets dug up. They follow their trials with an eagle eye and report on them nightly.

I'm not saying attention is every mass shooter's motivation, but if their names only get released to the survivors and families of victims, and their trial is covered in a matter of seconds "the ____ shooter was found guilty and got (insert sentence here) today," and make their identity a forgotten element to the whole thing, those who are in it for the attention would certainly be less apt to do it.
---

To add to what SEP said about a lot of these things not being premeditated, a big reason the "they will just find a gun illegally" argument is bad is because most people who commit these shootings don't have the illegal connections, knowhow, or audacity to put themselves at risk before committing the actual shooting.

Most of these people who commit these shootings aren't criminals. They're mentally deranged people. Most mentally deranged people aren't capable of or driven enough to obtain illegal guns.

I'll trust a criminal with a gun over a crazy person every time.
---

Lightning Strikes posted...

I really think getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as some make it out to be.

What complicates the issue is states being different

For instance, the data saying more guns used in crimes are illegally obtained than legally comes with the caveat that it's based on regional data, and a gun that is legal one place may be illegal in another, and so on. That data also tends to only consider guns purchased in gun shops as being in the "legal" area, not counting guns bought at pawn shops, gun shows, and so on.

So it's tough to say "most guns used in crimes are obtained illegally" without a bunch of caveats, and likewise, it's tough to really say how easy it is to illegally obtain a gun, and what kind of effect stricter laws would have on it.
---

Lucavi000 posted...

Gun control or not, people who want a gun will find a way to find one.

Those are the people that cause shit like this to happen and its the reason why strict gun laws wont be effective.

Statistics prove this to be categorically false.

Yes some people will get guns even if they were across the board illegal. BUT it would be such a smaller percentage that far fewer gun related deaths would occur. It is completely dishonest to insinuate otherwise.
---

Lightning Strikes posted...

I really think getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as some make it out to be.

I have no interests in guns but I guarantee if I wanted a gun in the US without going through the correct channels that I could get one fairly easily. They are just too readily available and people are too irresponsible. I know of multiple friends that have acquired guns via just trading shit with people

My ex wifes uncle had a literal cannon that he built himself plus a plethora of unregistered guns

For the record I am completely against guns but it's not as simple a scenario as like the UK or Australia when they banned guns.

ShatteredElysium posted...

They are just too readily available and people are too irresponsible. I know of multiple friends that have acquired guns via just trading shit with people

To be fair, I do think stricter laws could curb this some, since somebody is going to be less likely to be irresponsible and, say, trade a gun away if they know it could come back against them
---

what if we just got rid of all the guns?

I am aware how impossible that would be.
---

I saw the footage, and it was sickening and sad. Not sure what would drive a person to even commit an act (I'm more on this being a cultural/personal issue) than gun control problem. The person decided to follow through with the act, and people are dead. No place is 100% safe, but you would think a gaming event would be "Oh shit, let's have fun. Drink a little or just play for the hell of it."

What I wonder is if it was a competitive prize event. Not saying what the suspect did is any less deplorable, but I would more likely understand "Oh I'll fucking shoot these people" because they lost out on potential money. Money does stupid things to people, and people do stupid things for money.

Though that's something I doubt we know about yet. If it's a "gaming bar" and not an eSport championship sort of thing, who knows. But this is sad, and certainly takes the enjoyment out of being a gamer just a little bit.
---

Regarding illegal guns: Greater restrictions on legal firearms makes them harder to find and even more expensive to purchase

a) More legal guns = more illegal guns. "Illegal guns" don't come from nowhere people, many are formerly legal and modified for the black market, obtained through straw purchase, or simply stolen. Reducing legal gun ownership means limiting illegal supply and making guns more difficult to find

b) More gun control = greater black market demand = less affordable access
---

Ok. A website confirmed it was for $5000 and a berth in a national tournament...still disgusting.
---

Bad parenting.
---

Strife2 posted...

I saw the footage, and it was sickening and sad. Not sure what would drive a person to even commit an act (I'm more on this being a cultural/personal issue) than gun control problem. The person decided to follow through with the act, and people are dead. No place is 100% safe, but you would think a gaming event would be "Oh shit, let's have fun. Drink a little or just play for the hell of it."

What I wonder is if it was a competitive prize event. Not saying what the suspect did is any less deplorable, but I would more likely understand "Oh I'll fucking shoot these people" because they lost out on potential money. Money does stupid things to people, and people do stupid things for money.

Though that's something I doubt we know about yet. If it's a "gaming bar" and not an eSport championship sort of thing, who knows. But this is sad, and certainly takes the enjoyment out of being a gamer just a little bit.

It was a qualifier for a big tournament. So there probably wasn't much if any money on the line, but it still would be a big deal to some people.
---

Also, the argument that restricting gun access won't decrease shootings is based on the idea that all gun massacres are all these preplanned scenarios by people completely committed to such causes, and that if they wanted to get guns to kill people they still would, which ignores how many shootings are emotional impulses by people who haven't put any large amount of thought in what they wanted to do, they've just wanted to hurt people with what they had available. It's because it's so easy to obtain guns in this country that those people are able to cause so much harm. If you restrict gun access, these people would end up using knives and other lower scale weapons for the same reason, but to far less effect.
---

Lightning Strikes posted...

UItimaterializer posted...

Lightning Strikes posted...

Entirely preventable, as are all future mass shootings, but nothing will be done because America.

Shut the fuck up.

No. Not until something actually gets done to prevent this. Silence is just letting it continue to happen.

You're the guy who tells everyone to stay out of British politics because we don't live there. Fine.

You don't live in America. Fuck off about American politics. There are hundreds of millions of guns this country and tens of millions of legal and lawful gun owners. There are 152 documented mass shootings. Your odds of randomly getting shot in this country are astronomically low, and if suicides and gang violence are removed from the stats then the numbers are statistically irrelevant. Banning my guns because some loser pissant shot some gamers ain't happening pal.

It's as dumb as thinking terrorists are behind every blade of grass when you're more likely to die from getting stung by a bee.
---

pxlated posted...

guffguy89 posted...

I think what some people are saying is, let's wait until we actually get some facts. What kind of guns were used. How did they get them. etc. I feel like being able to talk about something specific, like the stock bump debate for example, is far more effective than just talking about gun control abstractly.

Also, I know shooting are happening a lot, but the United States is huge and there are so many "public events" that go on, that it's still lightning in a bottle, powerball lottery winning bad luck to be present at a mass shooting event.

With that being said, I have noticed that over the past year or so, anytime I attend a large event with lots of people, especially when the people are all bunched together, I do have a momentary thought of "gee, I hope a mass shooting doesn't happen here". And I honestly never had those thoughts before.

I think there's room for making significant gun control changes in this country, while still keeping the right to bear arms. Unfortunately, due the politicized environment of politics these days, I don't see any real change happening soon.

http://time.com/money/4912174/states-most-powerball-winners/

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data/2017

literally more mass shootings in one year than the entirety of powerball winners since powerball began

even using the more conservative 346 mass shooting number for 2017 that i saw elsewhere, there's like 15 more powerball winners over the entire history

That tracking website is using a really bad definition of "mass shooting" if incidents of only 2 deaths are being counted as "mass" shootings. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
---

I aint fucking watching
---

UItimaterializer posted...

pxlated posted...

guffguy89 posted...

I think what some people are saying is, let's wait until we actually get some facts. What kind of guns were used. How did they get them. etc. I feel like being able to talk about something specific, like the stock bump debate for example, is far more effective than just talking about gun control abstractly.

Also, I know shooting are happening a lot, but the United States is huge and there are so many "public events" that go on, that it's still lightning in a bottle, powerball lottery winning bad luck to be present at a mass shooting event.

With that being said, I have noticed that over the past year or so, anytime I attend a large event with lots of people, especially when the people are all bunched together, I do have a momentary thought of "gee, I hope a mass shooting doesn't happen here". And I honestly never had those thoughts before.

I think there's room for making significant gun control changes in this country, while still keeping the right to bear arms. Unfortunately, due the politicized environment of politics these days, I don't see any real change happening soon.

http://time.com/money/4912174/states-most-powerball-winners/

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data/2017

literally more mass shootings in one year than the entirety of powerball winners since powerball began

even using the more conservative 346 mass shooting number for 2017 that i saw elsewhere, there's like 15 more powerball winners over the entire history

That tracking website is using a really bad definition of "mass shooting" if incidents of only 2 deaths are being counted as "mass" shootings. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

it counts any incident where at least 4 people are shot. people don't have to die for something to be considered a mass shooting
---

greengravy294 posted...

I aint fucking watching

Good. I also implore others who haven't not to. It puts a face and voice to people dying...makes it so much worse.
---

As someone who runs sizable tournaments, this is literally my greatest fear. Like this is an official scenario I have to run in my head now. This is a protocol I will go over with staff. I have to take time and resources to ensure were at least mildly prepared for a mass shooting. Its insane and disgusting that its gotten to this point.
---

guy on the right is the shooter
---

Yeah he looks like a mass shooter
---

That's been the main guy I've seen, yeah. Though he's much older than that now.
---

Dont start highlighting his name. Fuck that.

I understand that it should be included in the news articles about the tragedy, but maybe the best thing we can all agree on is to not fetishize telling the public more about the killer.
---

Kinglicious posted...

That's been the main guy I've seen, yeah. Though he's much older than that now.

Yeah, 2 years older. Madden 17 to Madden 19. <.< >.>
---

https://twitter.com/rockcock64/status/1033860963680837633?s=09

UhhhhhhhHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh
---

jcgamer107 posted...

https://twitter.com/rockcock64/status/1033860963680837633?s=09

UhhhhhhhHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh

Gamers are the best
---

Lightning Strikes posted...

I really think getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as some make it out to be.

lol, you must not live in/near a urban area. Felons in possession of a firearm are a dime a dozen. Its about as easy as obtaining illegal drugs.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Dont start highlighting his name. Fuck that.

I understand that it should be included in the news articles about the tragedy, but maybe the best thing we can all agree on is to not fetishize telling the public more about the killer.

Christ I already said this pretty elaborately.
---

guffguy89 posted...

Lightning Strikes posted...

I really think getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as some make it out to be.

lol, you must not live in/near a urban area. Felons in possession of a firearm are a dime a dozen. Its about as easy as obtaining illegal drugs.

I live in Chicago. I know who to talk to to get drugs, but I wouldn't have any idea where to start to find a gun.

I guess maybe the drug guy could know someone who knows someone?
---

Yes, it is currently pretty easy to get illegal guns. Largely because its even easier to get them legally.

And the best way to solve a difficult problem is *definitely* to not even try any of the obvious stopgaps because they wont solve the whole problem. Definitely.
---

like obviously gangs get guns without too much trouble, but I think it would be harder for an unaffiliated whitr dude like these shooters tend to be to find one illegally

but luckily they can just drive to Indiana and buy one from a store
---

MoogleKupo141 posted...

guffguy89 posted...

Lightning Strikes posted...

I really think getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as some make it out to be.

lol, you must not live in/near a urban area. Felons in possession of a firearm are a dime a dozen. Its about as easy as obtaining illegal drugs.

I live in Chicago. I know who to talk to to get drugs, but I wouldn't have any idea where to start to find a gun.

I guess maybe the drug guy could know someone who knows someone?

Pretty sure the person you know who can get drugs knows someone or maybe even is someone who can get a gun.
---

I'm not sure what the purpose of the whole "it's easy to get a gun illegally, there's no point to change the gun laws" debate is. Is that true? Yeah, of course it is easy to get a gun even if it wasn't legal for you to do so.

That said, that applies to people within criminal organizations and gangs. It doesn't apply to this dude here at all. If obtaining a gun were more difficult for this guy, this event isn't as likely to transpire. I don't know who could argue with that.
---

Meanwhile Trump makes up false approval ratings on Twitter as he tells you that he hopes he's your favorite (ALL TIME) president rather than issue a statement about this at all. A great leader of men.
---