Poll of the Day > Should teachers be bonused on students doing well?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lets say end of each school year for each student that is in the honor roll for that subject they get an extra $250 at the end of the school year/semester.

You think they would make teachers care more?
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So you're basically asking if teachers should get bonuses based on how many A's they wind up giving out? Yeah, there's no way teachers could abuse that to the detriment of the students.

HillChange posted...

So you're basically asking if teachers should get bonuses based on how many A's they wind up giving out? Yeah, there's no way teachers could abuse that to the detriment of the students.

Came in to say this. Whenever you try to tie incentives to government performance, there's always massive fraud. Even private sector incentives can lead to fraud when you have crooked management (eg, Wells-Fargo)
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Teacher here. This is a terrible idea.

Assessment in class is nearly entirely to the discretion of the teacher. I can have everyone in my class get 90s if I wanted to. Standardized exams are less in my control, but they are complete bullshit in their philosophy and exist entirely as a playing piece for politicians.

I've taught certain classes the exact same between years and still have vastly different results on standardized exams. Last year my 9th grade class was 15% above provincial average. This year, my 9th grade class was 10% below provincial average. My 12th grade results haven't come in yet, but I know based on conversations I've had with them since the exams that my 12th grade math class did dreadful on their diploma exam, but my 12th grade physics class did very well. These two classes had only 2 students common between them, so it was mostly entirely different groups of students.

What I'm trying to say is that it is completely unfair to assign bonuses to teachers based on this criteria when one of the biggest indicators for whether or not they will succeed are the students in their class.
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Yep, wouldn't work. Students would fail tests on purpose to get back on teachers.

faramir77 posted...

Assessment in class is nearly entirely to the discretion of the teacher. I can have everyone in my class get 90s if I wanted to. Standardized exams are less in my control, but they are complete bullshit in their philosophy and exist entirely as a playing piece for politicians.

iirc, there have been scandals where teachers were helping students cheat on standardized tests.

faramir77 posted...

What I'm trying to say is that it is completely unfair to assign bonuses to teachers based on this criteria when one of the biggest indicators for whether or not they will succeed are the students in their class.

Well... I wouldn't go that far. You'd certainly have an easier time with some versus others, but it can be more controllable than people make it out to be. And most of us can recall great teachers who got us engaged in the subject material and terrible teachers who made fun subjects feel terrible.
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Broken_Zeus posted...

Well... I wouldn't go that far. You'd certainly have an easier time with some versus others, but it can be more controllable than people make it out to be. And most of us can recall great teachers who got us engaged in the subject material and terrible teachers who made fun subjects feel terrible.

That's exactly why I said "one of". Teacher quality still plays a massive role, but I am not convinced that even the greatest teachers can see the level of success TC is referring to with all classes.

One of the kids I taught this year couldn't add basic fractions. They have failed every math class since the 4th grade. They needed a heavily modified program just to even break 50%. Another kid had brain damage and would miss weeks of school at a time during their low points.

I do my best to help every kid succeed, but some classes are not fated to have the same results as others. I shouldn't be rewarded for being given a strong class and I shouldn't be penalized for being given a weak class. I should, however, be always expected to do everything I reasonably can to help them succeed. I don't know if there's a way to fairly measure whether teachers are doing that, and I don't think there should be a bonus given to those that do when really it should be the base expectation.
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They've tried bonus incentives, and basically ran out of money paying all the teachers who did well aka cheated to make their class seem at a higher level than the were.

I wish we would drastically change the school system.
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supergamer19 posted...

I wish we would drastically change the school system.

Indeed, the current system is flawed and outdated af. Tho sadly it wouldn't make any difference for me anymore since I'm already graduated...

faramir77 posted...

What I'm trying to say is that it is completely unfair to assign bonuses to teachers based on this criteria when one of the biggest indicators for whether or not they will succeed are the students in their class.

Tell me about it.

You don't want to hear the horror stories of Carver Middle School ._.

Also, it's cool to hear you're a teacher. I didn't know that.

They should be bonused for good book learning
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No, you should start with the baseline assumption that they will do their job. Then dock them for every time they don't. Like what any other place of employment would do.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

No, you should start with the baseline assumption that they will do their job. Then dock them for every time they don't. Like what any other place of employment would do.

Kinda hit the same issues either way-- teachers cheating to beat the system.
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Zeus posted...

Kinda hit the same issues either way-- teachers cheating to beat the system.

That depends on the metric used to determine performance. If it's just student grades then of course that can be manipulated. Even standardized tests aren't an indication of teaching so much as an indicator of the students motivation to learn. Perhaps they aren't interested in the subject. Maybe their home life is interfering with being able to study. The metric used has to compensate for additional variables in order to determine teacher performance and be resistant to tampering.

I'm saying that given such a metric, teachers should not be awarded bonuses for meeting the basic requirement of their job. Doing so would be like awarding a bonus just for showing up on time. The baseline assumption is that you will be present to perform your job at a given time.
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I have seen an article on NPR of a high school in or near Washington DC where every graduate got into college. It turns out that a bunch of the teachers think that the administration was just passing students along even if they didnt deserve to graduate. I would like to be a teacher, but weird policies like this that happen sort of make it seem as if what teachers do isnt important.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/11/28/564054556/what-really-happened-at-the-school-where-every-senior-got-into-college
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jramirez23 posted...

I have seen an article on NPR of a high school in or near Washington DC where every graduate got into college. It turns out that a bunch of the teachers think that the administration was just passing students along even if they didnt deserve to graduate. I would like to be a teacher, but weird policies like this that happen sort of make it seem as if what teachers do isnt important.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/11/28/564054556/what-really-happened-at-the-school-where-every-senior-got-into-college

This happens a lot everywhere, it seems. School boards don't tend to act in the best interest of students.

My mom has plenty of stories of kids she's known being left high and dry by the district.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Even standardized tests aren't an indication of teaching so much as an indicator of the students motivation to learn.

Which is often a side effect of teaching.

jramirez23 posted...

I have seen an article on NPR of a high school in or near Washington DC where every graduate got into college. It turns out that a bunch of the teachers think that the administration was just passing students along even if they didnt deserve to graduate. I would like to be a teacher, but weird policies like this that happen sort of make it seem as if what teachers do isnt important.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/11/28/564054556/what-really-happened-at-the-school-where-every-senior-got-into-college

tl;dr as to how they actually got into college, though? Or is just a matter of their checks clearing?

Otherwise most of the worst education stories seem to come from DC.
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Zeus posted...

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Even standardized tests aren't an indication of teaching so much as an indicator of the students motivation to learn.

Which is often a side effect of teaching.

There's only so much teachers can do, though. Especially when the kid's parents have just as little of a motivation for their kids to actually succeed in school.

No.
Standardized tests are a terrible measure of teacher success.

Kl0wn_Numb3rs posted...

There's only so much teachers can do, though. Especially when the kid's parents have just as little of a motivation for their kids to actually succeed in school.

Also this.
Thank you for making my point better than I can.

I'd rather low IQ students could be abandoned from education so the teachers don't waste their time trying to get them to pick up basic skills while the rest of the class is waiting to learn something.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

I'd rather low IQ students could be abandoned from education so the teachers don't waste their time trying to get them to pick up basic skills while the rest of the class is waiting to learn something.

Back in the 80's, we did this. Every grade had a few separate reading and math levels, and the truly dumb had their own classes.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I'd rather low IQ students could be abandoned from education so the teachers don't waste their time trying to get them to pick up basic skills while the rest of the class is waiting to learn something.

Speaking as somebody who spent pretty much the entirety of the primary and secondary schooling process waiting for the rest of the class to catch up to how quickly he learned things, I quite disagree. Boredom sucks, but if you're actually smart enough to have all that free time to be bored, you can use it to help other kids out and take some of the load off of the teacher. Teaching stuff is the best way to learn it anyway, so everybody wins in that case.

In extreme cases of intellectual disabilities? In my experience, the standard was to have additional personnel helping them out with specialized programs. That makes sense.
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adjl posted...

Speaking as somebody who spent pretty much the entirety of the primary and secondary schooling process waiting for the rest of the class to catch up to how quickly he learned things

I had a similar experience, except I wanted nothing to do with the other students and came to despise many of my teachers.
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Start off with at least a living wage based on location for all teachers. No more 30k a year starting (which doesn't increase for 5 years) in areas with a minimum rent for a 1 bedroom of $1500 a month.

Basic living wage should be based on 2x (average rent of a 1 bedroom), per month. So if the average is $1800 then living wage should be $3600 a month or about 42k or so a year.

Next alter the hours a teacher works to include 2 hours after school lets out. During those hours the teacher is available in their class to help students struggling, talk with parents, grade papers, work on homework, set up lesson plans, change seating arrangements as needed etc. Normal "meetings" are also usually held during this time (usually only once per week, probably on friday since it makes the most sense).

Currently you have some teachers who work 10 hours a day, and some teachers who literally can't wait 5 minutes for their students to be picked up after school is out before leaving. Huge difference in how much work is being done. The above change won't stop the teachers from working way to hard for the pay, but it will actually include some of that time in what they are being compensated for at least, and it will ensure the "lazy" teachers (or the burnt out ones etc), still do some of the work that really needs to be done outside of class time.

This will help prevent students from going 1-2 years with teachers who don't care and being way behind by the time (if they are lucky) they actually get a teacher who does.

Also plain and simple, if a class has over 30 students in it, it gets a teachers assistent, or it doesn't have over 30 students in it. All my classes had over 40, with no assistants AND at least 3 special needs students. That is going to burn anyone out.

Build more schools, or at least more classrooms at the schools, and hire more teachers. Hire teaching assistants for the first 5 years when new teachers are getting paid so little as well. If your paying them less for 5 years, there is a reason, so freaking give them backup while they are learning the ropes!!

That would at least be a start. Integrate computers/keyboarding skills into elementary level teaching more universally as well (it's hit or miss at many schools). I fall on the side of the "no more cursive" debate and instead focus on typing/computer skills instead.

We do need a drastic overhaul of our school system. It's not working right now, for the students, for the teachers, or for the parents.
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Grades and test scores are hit or miss on measuring capability. You could be rewarding teachers for doing nothing if those straight-A kids end up chasing a useless degree or squandering their potential by working a medium-skill job for a huge company, doing next to nothing for society.

Before even talking about this, you need to change how kids get tested. Increase focus on application of knowledge and move away from memorization, for one thing. How many straight-A kids turn out miserable and fail in the real world where they can't use any of their expansive knowledge efficiently? You'd be rewarding the teachers who passed them by giving grade bonuses.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I'd rather low IQ students could be abandoned from education so the teachers don't waste their time trying to get them to pick up basic skills while the rest of the class is waiting to learn something.

Kinda why schools have track systems.

adjl posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I'd rather low IQ students could be abandoned from education so the teachers don't waste their time trying to get them to pick up basic skills while the rest of the class is waiting to learn something.

Speaking as somebody who spent pretty much the entirety of the primary and secondary schooling process waiting for the rest of the class to catch up to how quickly he learned things, I quite disagree. Boredom sucks, but if you're actually smart enough to have all that free time to be bored, you can use it to help other kids out and take some of the load off of the teacher. Teaching stuff is the best way to learn it anyway, so everybody wins in that case.

That's a massively inefficient system. While hardcore liberals dislike ideas like the track system, schools really need to separate high-performers, moderate-performers, and low-performers to better accommodate them. Otherwise you waste the high-performers' potential while not properly serving low-performers.

And sure, it exacerbates educational outcomes but you should never try to achieve equality by holding people down. That's just fucking stupid.
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It's sort of weird how educational debates can easily become political battlegrounds. I think tracking students is a good idea (if it's done well and not just to discriminate against minority students). But then there's educational theorists who completely swing the other way and want to eliminate tracking entirely because it's "racist."
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It would be nice if this shit didn't happen
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/education/detroit-public-schools-education.html

but I don't think incentives would help much.
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adjl posted...

Boredom sucks, but if you're actually smart enough to have all that free time to be bored, you can use it to help other kids out and take some of the load off of the teacher.

Why should I have to have sub-par education AND deal with fucking special kids with no gratitude? I'm not getting paid to help them, it does literally nothing for me so fuck them.

The developed world wastes hundreds of hours on students who will just go in to a low-skill trade. These people would be best off being trained from middle school to leave with some marketable skill than dragged through years of embarrassment and sunk funds to give them no diploma because they're slow.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Why should I have to have sub-par education AND deal with f***ing special kids with no gratitude?

If you're not getting gratitude for helping people, you're probably being an asshole about it.
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adjl posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Why should I have to have sub-par education AND deal with f***ing special kids with no gratitude?

If you're not getting gratitude for helping people, you're probably being an asshole about it.

No, they're self-absorbed. SJWs are my generation, are you surprised I grew up with entitled idiots?
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Apparently TC English teacher failed him.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

adjl posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Why should I have to have sub-par education AND deal with f***ing special kids with no gratitude?

If you're not getting gratitude for helping people, you're probably being an asshole about it.

No, they're self-absorbed. SJWs are my generation, are you surprised I grew up with entitled idiots?

I'm pretty sure your generation is my generation, unless you're much younger than I'm realizing.
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adjl posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

adjl posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Why should I have to have sub-par education AND deal with f***ing special kids with no gratitude?

If you're not getting gratitude for helping people, you're probably being an asshole about it.

No, they're self-absorbed. SJWs are my generation, are you surprised I grew up with entitled idiots?

I'm pretty sure your generation is my generation, unless you're much younger than I'm realizing.

I'm just 25.
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29. Your generation is my generation. A fair amount has happened in that four-year gap (namely, smartphones took off in university for me and high school for you), but that's not enough to really qualify as a generational gap.
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OneTimeBen posted...

Apparently TC English teacher failed him.

I think you an apostrophe.
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