Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 6: The Perceiving (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

"Quite the collection of law books. My mentor bought all of them. I used to be too busy to read them. Now that I have the time to read them, there's no need...but I can't just sell them."

I've always really liked that line from Phoenix. Examining all the stuff in the office in the past results in some really bittersweet monologues from him.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Also, I'm wondering if Klavier stepped away from prosecuting after 4-0 until 4-2.

this seems to be implied, i think.

also, this is one of the best post-timeskip investigation segments period.
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you know it's never occurred to me before but Phoenix was an art student in college so why doesn't he do something related to that instead of pretending to play piano?
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LeonhartFour posted...

you know it's never occurred to me before but Phoenix was an art student in college so why doesn't he do something related to that instead of pretending to play piano?

I'm not sure exactly how an out-of-practice artist that never got that far in his formal education would make money, at least in comparison to his gig of never losing at poker in the basement of a seedy bar.
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Yeah I mean Phoenix's real job was playing poker right

Although they had to like, really lamely censor the gambling part of it I guess? that's what it felt like anyway. "oh they don't play for MONEY, people just pay to play the legendary Phoenix Wright at poker for some reason"

but either way, that's his real job, the piano thing is a front... because even though they're not gambling... he still needs a cover...?

it really makes zero fucking sense, but it's funny so ok

Phoenix as a great poker player makes sense though

I kinda wish in AA5/AA6 they brought up Phoenix's poker skills again

I dunno, I just think poker expert Phoenix is really cool

Poker was his real job but he could have done something art related for his cover since he wasn't any good at the piano. Although, I'm not sure that would fit in a bar setting.
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_SecretSquirrel posted...

I'm not sure exactly how an out-of-practice artist that never got that far in his formal education would make money

I mean we don't know how far he got in his formal education! Maybe he was a double major and has degrees in both law and art! We don't even know what his artistic talent was. Either way, it's weird that his first choice is piano/poker.

And yeah, his real job is playing poker, but how did he (or the restaurant he worked at) discover he was so good at it? He had to start with playing piano first, right? I agree it makes sense that he's good at it because he's so good at bluffing, reading people, reacting quickly, and not being afraid to take risks. It also makes sense to me that he wouldn't want to be involved in any kind of illegal gambling because he's still a lawyer deep down.
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why wouldn't he just play tournament poker if he wants to do it legal though

does japan not have tournament poker?

LeonhartFour posted...

_SecretSquirrel posted...

I'm not sure exactly how an out-of-practice artist that never got that far in his formal education would make money

I mean we don't know how far he got in his formal education! Maybe he was a double major and has degrees in both law and art! We don't even know what his artistic talent was. Either way, it's weird that his first choice is piano/poker.

And yeah, his real job is playing poker, but how did he (or the restaurant he worked at) discover he was so good at it? He had to start with playing piano first, right? I agree it makes sense that he's good at it because he's so good at bluffing, reading people, reacting quickly, and not being afraid to take risks. It also makes sense to me that he wouldn't want to be involved in any kind of illegal gambling because he's still a lawyer deep down.

Well, I'm pretty sure the idea is that Phoenix never gave up on what happened in 4-0, so the piano/poker gig was his way of staying close to the crime underworld and learning the truth. After all, it was how he was able to meet Zak again.

And if we were to assume that music was actually Phoenix's artistic "talent," well maybe it really wasn't a backup profession worth choosing. Considering nearly every actual artist in the series has a secret regarding their real profession or is Larry, it would probably end up playing out in the same direction.
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It may not be that popular or it wasn't 10 years ago. Who knows.
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"I feel very much on the verge of going psycho lock myself!"

Drew Misham was the best victim before Tahrust Inmee came along

also I love the fact that Phoenix is so embittered and determined at this point that he doesn't even bother hiding the concept of Psyche-Locks from Drew like he normally does but he also never attempts to explain what they are to him
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Phoenix: I guess that's why he never took visitors here. Wouldn't want people seeing all this.
Brushel: Yes, in fact I was the first human being ever to set foot inside this studio. Er, other than Mr. Misham, of course. Oh, and Vera, too. And, this is assuming I'm human, of course.
Phoenix: (...I'm beginning to have my doubts.)

Brushel so good
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I feel like Apollo Justice came out just before tournament poker became a mainstream thing but I may be misremembering.

And yeah like the grape juice I just assumed the "we don't gamble" thing was some sort of self-censorship. I don't mind, to be clear, but that's my headcanon.
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LeonhartFour posted...

_SecretSquirrel posted...

I'm not sure exactly how an out-of-practice artist that never got that far in his formal education would make money

I mean we don't know how far he got in his formal education! Maybe he was a double major and has degrees in both law and art! We don't even know what his artistic talent was. Either way, it's weird that his first choice is piano/poker.

Well, law is a post-graduate degree, so there's nothing saying that he didn't major in Art at Ivy University then went somewhere else for law school.
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Hmmm...I think this is the first time I'm replaying AJ since beating SoJ. I'm at the part where Brushel is talking about Thalassa's first husband. He mentions that he was a performer (I always assumed magician but it didn't have to be, of course) and that he died onstage. That's not true precisely, of course, but he did die at the place he was performing, so it's close enough. Apparently, they were only married for about a year when he died, so Apollo came along pretty quickly, I guess!
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"So Trucy has an older brother...I wonder what will come of that."

apparently nothing
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4-4 investigation day 2 complete

Phoenix might beat out Apollo, after all

also somehow there's a chance this case will end up with fewer lines than 4-3
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LeonhartFour posted...

And yeah, his real job is playing poker, but how did he (or the restaurant he worked at) discover he was so good at it? He had to start with playing piano first, right? I agree it makes sense that he's good at it because he's so good at bluffing, reading people, reacting quickly, and not being afraid to take risks. It also makes sense to me that he wouldn't want to be involved in any kind of illegal gambling because he's still a lawyer deep down.

Didn't it say that he took advantage of Trucy's ability to perceive people to tell when they were bluffing?
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Which begs the question of when did he realize Trucy could do it? He had to be playing poker first, you'd think. The order of events is kind of unclear.

Speaking of which, it's kind of weird that DD and SoJ never draw attention to the fact that Trucy has the same power as Apollo. That's just become a forgotten detail, it seems.
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Phoenix was good enough to beat Zak before he even met Trucy, that's how all this got started in the first place.

Yeah, he has natural skill at it, too. He admits he's really good on his own, just not "undefeated for seven years" good. I guess Zak telling him Magnifi is the only other person who's ever beaten him at cards gave him the idea he might be good enough to make a living off of it.

I'd like Apollo to try playing cards at some point.
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I like that moment during trial day 2 where Apollo reveals that Shadi Smith was Zak Gramarye, and he looks over to Trucy to see how she took the news, and she doesn't skip a beat, telling him to finish the case and they'll talk about it later.
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Apollo: At that moment, I couldn't think of anything to say. Perhaps...because I hadn't seen enough. But one day, I'll know what law is. And I'll fight to change it if I have to!

you're darn right you will Apollo
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4-4 complete

I've gotta take off for a while though, so I won't be able to compile the final numbers until tonight.
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Yay, onto games I feel more passionately about. :)

Also I just noticed this but I don't think I agree with calling Tahrust Inmee a victim!

No idea who my own favourite victim is, though. I don't like Drew much (that whole using your daughter to do criminal activity thing). My first thought is Jack Hammer because I like how his role and actions in the plot shape the case. Guys like Coachen and Bullard do too of course, but Hammer is more interesting than "is a wretched human being and criminal". Juan Corrida's also a decent pick, but I feel like we're missing some key details on him (like just how bad he is).
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NeoElfboy posted...

Also I just noticed this but I don't think I agree with calling Tahrust Inmee a victim!

He's a victim in the same way Magnifi Gramarye is a victim. You can debate the terminology of the word, but for the intents and purposes of the series, Tahrust qualifies as a victim.
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also I think you're oversimplifying Drew a little bit since he's a lot more interesting than just that

he took advantage of his daughter's talents for her sake, not his own

the dude was a down on his luck painter who couldn't sell anything he made and he was desperate to be able to support her

not to mention he lived with a lot of regret for what he did but he felt like there was no other way
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Yeah, he's not a bad character or anything, just I like him less than the game does and that rarely sits well with me. (Zak's obviously far more egregious on this front.)

I get why Tahrust and Magnifi would be called victims at the start of their cases but now that we know better it feels weird!
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I don't think Drew is presented as a good guy. He's sympathetic because he's a single dad struggling to make ends meet, but they don't really downplay the fact that he's a criminal.
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Total lines by character:

1. Phoenix Wright - 16363
2. Miles Edgeworth - 14764
3. The Judge - 5081
4. Maya Fey - 4441
5. Apollo Justice - 4161
6. Dick Gumshoe - 4089
7. Kay Faraday - 3370
8. Franziska von Karma - 2314
9. Trucy Wright - 2030
10. Ema Skye - 1897
11. Mia Fey - 1418
12. Shi-Long Lang - 1101
13. Klavier Gavin - 1061
14. Pearl Fey - 1035
15. Justine Courtney - 1016
16. Larry Butz - 1008
17. Raymond Shields - 971
18. Godot - 902
19. Gregory Edgeworth - 649
20. Lotta Hart - 648
21. Tyrell Badd - 593
22. Dahlia Hawthorne - 578
23. Wendy Oldbag - 553
24. Sebastian Debeste - 521
25. Calisto Yew/Shih-na - 489
26. Adrian Andrews - 459
27. Winston Payne - 453
28. Manfred von Karma - 444
29. The Judge's Brother - 421
30. Shelly de Killer - 387
31. Lamiroir/Thalassa Gramarye - 382
32. Will Powers - 380
33. Simon Keyes - 380
34. Bikini - 351
35. Maggey Byrde - 323
36. Lawrence "Moe" Curls - 320
37. Kristoph Gavin - 319
38. Quercus Alba - 303
39. Valant Gramarye - 298
40. Luke Atmey - 292
41. Damon Gant - 285
42. Ini Miney - 275
43. Angel Starr - 272
44. Ron DeLite - 271
45. Rhoda Teneiro - 268
46. Katherine Hall - 267
47. Blaise Debeste - 265
48. Regina Berry - 261
49. Jake Marshall - 257
50. Jean Armstrong - 251
51. Nicole Swift - 250
52. Lana Skye - 249
53. Victor Kudo - 247
54. Mike Meekins - 235
55. Marvin Grossberg - 234
56. Jacques Portsman - 231
57. Spark Brushel - 230
58. Frank Sahwit - 219
59. Alita Tiala - 219
60. Patricia Roland - 217
61. Daryan Crescend - 216
62. Dane Gustavia - 209
63. Horace Knightley - 209
64. Maximillion Galactica - 203
65. Ben & Trilo Quist - 200
66. Penny Nichols - 194
67. Ken "Acro" Dingling - 182
68. Iris - 181
69. Furio Tigre - 176
70. Zak Gramarye - 174
71. Matt Engarde - 171
72. Sirhan Dogen - 170
73. Cammy Meele - 168
74. Morgan Fey - 165
75. Redd White - 162
76. John Marsh - 153
77. Delicia Scones - 151
78. Colias Palaeno - 150
79. Dee Vasquez - 148
80. Zinc Lablanc - 146
81. Desiree DeLite - 142
82. Trilo Quist - 140
83. Wesley Stickler - 138
84. Cody Hackins - 135
85. Olga Orly - 131
86. Lauren Paups - 130
87. Karin Jenson - 129
88. Guy Eldoon - 118
89. Wocky Kitaki - 112
90. Di-Jun Huang - 110
91. Richard Wellington - 107
92. April May - 104
93. Vera Misham - 104
94. Jay Elbird - 102
95. Yanni Yogi - 98
96. Lance Amano - 92
97. Jeff Master - 90
98. Viola Cadaverini - 80
99. Director Hotti/Doctor Hickfield - 76
100. Plum Kitaki - 76
101. Terry Fawles - 74
102. Drew Misham - 74
103. The Bellboy - 72
104. Ernest Amano - 68
105. Benjamin Woodman - 60
106. Sal Manella - 59
107. Chief of Detectives - 55
108. Bonnie Young - 53
109. Lisa Basil - 46
110. Machi Tobaye - 41
111. Turner Grey - 39
112. Elise Deauxnim - 30
113. Missile - 20
114. Polly - 20
115. Winfred "Big Wins" Kitaki - 20
116. The Amazing Mr. Hat - 19
117. Romein LeTouse - 13

Overall total lines - 88562

Total lines by segment:

4-4 Investigation Day 2 - 1169
4-4 Investigation Day 1 - 853
4-4 Trial Day 1 - 748
4-0 - 679
4-4 Trial Day 2 - 503
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Total lines by case:

2-4 - 5946
1-5 - 5913
3-5 - 5815
E1-5 - 4831
E2-5 - 4777
4-3 - 4494
3-2 - 4151
3-3 - 4063
E2-3 - 3959
4-4 - 3952
E2-2 - 3936
2-3 - 3884
4-2 - 3468
1-4 - 3466
2-2 - 3119
E1-4 - 2935
E2-4 - 2868
1-3 - 2741
E1-3 - 2412
E1-2 - 1995
E2-1 - 1923
1-2 - 1773
4-1 - 1421
3-4 - 1225
3-1 - 1167
E1-1 - 1039
2-1 - 899
4-0 - 679
1-1 - 389

Totals lines by game:

AAI2 - 17463
T&T - 16422
PW1 - 14282
JFA - 13848
AJ - 13335
AAI1 - 13212

Total lines between investigations and trials:

4-2 Investigations - 2045 (58.97%)
4-2 Trials - 1423 (41.03%)

4-3 Investigations - 2161 (48.09%)
4-3 Trials - 2333 (51.91%)

4-4 Investigations - 2022 (51.16%)
4-4 Trials - 1930 (48.84%)

AJ Investigations - 6228 (46.70%)
AJ Trials (including 4-1) - 7107 (53.30%)

AJ Investigations - 6228 (52.27%)
AJ Trials (excluding 4-1) - 5686 (47.73%)

Total lines by character per case:

Turnabout Succession (4-4)

1. Phoenix Wright - 914 (23.13%)
2. Apollo Justice - 709 (17.94%)
3. Trucy Wright - 428 (10.83%)
4. The Judge - 353 (8.93%)
5. Klavier Gavin - 316 (8.00%)
6. Valant Gramarye - 245 (6.20%)
7. Spark Brushel - 230 (5.82%)
8. Zak Gramarye - 169 (4.28%)
9. Ema Skye - 137 (3.47%)
10. Kristoph Gavin - 126 (3.19%)
11. Vera Misham - 104 (2.63%)
12. Drew Misham - 74
13. Mike Meekins - 52
14. Dick Gumshoe - 42
15. Other - 14
16. Thalassa Gramarye - 12
17. Magnifi Gramarye - 7
18. The Amazing Mr. Hat - 7
19. Olga Orly - 5
20. Plum Kitaki - 3
21. Winfred "Big Wins" Kitaki - 2
22. Wocky Kitaki - 1
23. Guy Eldoon - 1
24. Wesley Stickler - 1

Percentage of lines per case by game:

Apollo Justice

4-3 - 33.70%
4-4 - 29.64%
4-2 - 26.01%
4-1 - 10.66%

Total lines by character per game:

Apollo Justice

1. Apollo Justice - 4161 (31.20%)
2. Trucy Wright - 2030 (15.22%)
3. Phoenix Wright - 1289 (9.67%)
4. The Judge - 1235 (9.26%)
5. Klavier Gavin - 1061 (7.96%)
6. Ema Skye - 550 (4.12%)
7. Lamiroir/Thalassa Gramarye - 382
8. Kristoph Gavin - 319
9. Valant Gramarye - 298
10. Spark Brushel - 230
11. Alita Tiala - 219
12. Daryan Crescend - 216
13. Zak Gramarye - 174
14. Winston Payne - 144
15. Wesley Stickler - 138
16. Olga Orly - 131
17. Guy Eldoon - 118
18. Wocky Kitaki - 112
19. Vera Misham - 104
20. Plum Kitaki - 76
21. Drew Misham - 74
22. Other - 68
23. Mike Meekins - 52
24. Dick Gumshoe - 42
25. Machi Tobaye - 41
26. Winfred "Big Wins" Kitaki - 20
27. The Amazing Mr. Hat - 19
28. Romein LeTouse - 13
29. Magnifi Gramarye - 7
30. Pal Meraktis - 7
31. Doctor Hickfield - 5
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Also, since we're playing in timeline order, that means the case order for DD will be:

5-2
5-6
5-3
5-4 Day 1
5-1
5-4 Day 2
5-5

good thing DD has multiple save slots for when I have to insert 5-1 in the middle of 5-4
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at this point I think we can more or less guess who the top ten will be

Athena will find her way in eventually, and then it's going to be a matter of which of Franziska, Trucy, and Ema gets squeezed out. I don't think Blackquill or Nahyuta can do enough to catch them, and they're the only other "serious" contenders the last two games will introduce. It looks like everyone in the top 11 will have over 2000 lines, too, which will be well above everyone below them, so it's a pretty good dividing line.

also it's kind of weird that Klavier is criticized for having no real presence in AJ but he has more lines than Godot
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Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm a little surprised by how talkative Klavier is but I guess you talk to him quite a bit outside of court and he's especially involved in this particular case.

Oh, and my bet is on Phoenix having the most lines in 4-4, by juuust a hair.

My guess on lines in 4-4 is that it's gonna be Phoenix > Apollo > Judge > Trucy > Klavier > Valant > Brushel > Zak > other people

Ooooh, so close!

Trucy and Ema are both basically certain to surpass Franziska, so Franziska's the odd one out. I can't remember if I predicted her or Trucy outside the top 10. I always knew it was going to come down to these 11 characters anyway, so it was a really tough call figuring out who was going to be #11. But it's definitely Franziska now.

Lang vs Klavier is low key an interesting battle btw, I think Klavier has enough lines in 5-3 to surpass him but I'm not 100% certain of that

Pearl will definitely surpass both of them since she has 5-5, 5-6, and 6-5 to do it

Larry will also surpass both of them just with 6-6

Neither of them will surpass Mia

Part of me was curious if Apollo would be able to do enough to catch Edgeworth, but I highly doubt it at this point, especially since Edgeworth is a prosecutor for two more cases. Just can't see Apollo getting over 10,000 lines between DD and SoJ despite how much of a monster 6-5 is. I'm curious to see if he can reach 10,000 overall though.

also it's still weird to think that over half of Ema's lines have still come just from her role in 1-5

she'd be right above Lang even if 1-5 was all she had
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Athena vs Maya will be interesting

My gut tells me Maya wins but I'm not confident

Athena will pass Gumshoe though I am pretty sure

Paratroopa1 posted...

Lang vs Klavier is low key an interesting battle btw, I think Klavier has enough lines in 5-3 to surpass him but I'm not 100% certain of that

Pearl will definitely surpass both of them since she has 5-5, 5-6, and 6-5 to do it

Larry will also surpass both of them just with 6-6

Neither of them will surpass Mia

Part of me wonders if Blackquill can catch Mia. I think he's the only other character besides Athena who can.
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Apollo's definitely going to place third. 6-5 is a monster, but even that will only give him around 2000 lines? It's not enough. He's only the playable attorney in 3 more cases (plus one very short trial segment), an assistant in one, a witness in one, and then a minor role in two others. He's really hurt by the fact that he doesn't show up in four of AA6's six cases at all. (Which is funny, because he shows up in all six of AA5's)

Paratroopa1 posted...

Athena vs Maya will be interesting

My gut tells me Maya wins but I'm not confident

Athena will pass Gumshoe though I am pretty sure

I think I'd bet on Athena beating out Maya. She has a sizable role in every DD case, including one where she's the lead. Plus, she's got a big role in 6-2, 6-4, and 6-5.

I'm really curious to see what the DD line counts look like without free investigations though. That might actually hurt the attorney/assistant quite a bit, at least in terms of overall line percentages.
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I am close to 100% certain that Blackquill catches Mia. Klavier has just over 1000 lines in AA4 and Blackquill should beat that easily. He might not have as many lines in any case as Klavier has in 4-3 but he has a big role in pretty much all of AA5, which is way longer than AA4, and then he gets to top it off with 6-4. He should be over 1500.

My main concern with Blackquill catching Mia is that he only shows up outside of court a couple of times and not for very long in any of those instances. What helped Klavier a ton in 4-3 is that he was active in both investigation segments.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Athena vs Maya will be interesting

My gut tells me Maya wins but I'm not confident

Athena will pass Gumshoe though I am pretty sure

I think I'd bet on Athena beating out Maya. She has a sizable role in every DD case, including one where she's the lead. Plus, she's got a big role in 6-2, 6-4, and 6-5.

I'm really curious to see what the DD line counts look like without free investigations though. That might actually hurt the attorney/assistant quite a bit, at least in terms of overall line percentages.

It's hard for me to remember exactly how many lines she has in 5-5 and 6-5 because I don't have a good bead on how many lines court assistants get. She's only the playable character in 5-3, 6-4, and a very short bit in 5-1, then she's assistant in 5-2, 5-4, 5-6, 6-2, and some parts of 6-5, and then defendant/court assistant in 5-5 and minor role in 6-6. I'm not really sure if that's enough - but on the other hand, AA5 and AA6 are both really really long.

The thing is, Maya is going to pad her total pretty nicely with 6-3 and 6-6, too. I think she winds up surpassing 5000 just barely, so that's what Athena needs to hit. Apollo didn't get that far in AA4 and he had a little more time as main char... but he didn't have those assistant parts. Yeah, I guess Athena actually probably does beat Maya.

It might come down to the last case between Maya and Athena. I think it's gonna be tight.

(of course if we throw Layton/AA into the mix Maya will win easily but that'll be bonus numbers territory regardless)

The assistant gets way more lines in investigations than in trials. They tend to be way down the list overall in line counts during the trial segments. They rarely contribute much other than chiming in during cross-examinations.
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Athena does contribute more in mood matrix segments than most court assistants though

Yeah, that's true, although you don't get to press during Mood Matrix segments, so that'll limit her contributions a bit. I feel like DD and SoJ in general make the assistant more active during trials though, but that's just my gut reaction. I know at least in DD they have a tendency to drop big hints during cross-examinations, which was kind of annoying at times because they made it a little too obvious what you had to do.
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I think it's funny how at this point, we can very easily say Phoenix > Edgeworth > Apollo > Judge > Athena/Maya > Gumshoe > Kay > Trucy/Ema/Franziska > Mia/Blackquill > Klavier/Lang/Pearl/Larry/Nahyuta > other people

and a lot of the movement at the top is pretty much done, or not going to change too much

...except Phoenix is not even close to being done, since he still has the most lines of any character remaining by far. I don't think he's going to crack 30000 lines, but can he crack 25000? He's got 5-1, 5-4, 5-5, 5-6, 6-1, 6-3, 6-6, with a major role in 6-5, and a few other lines peppered in here and there. I think it will be close.

Does Asinine attorney count?
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