Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 6: The Perceiving (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

AxemRedRanger posted...

Does Asinine attorney count?

Nah, I'm not going to bother with those since they're just parodies. If I include Layton/AA, I won't count the Special Episodes either.
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Yeah, counting Asinine Attorney seems pretty pointless, nobody really regards them as real cases.

The only thing that's interesting about Asinine Attorney is that it could technically mean that Klavier appears in AA6, which is very weird

LeonhartFour posted...

also it's kind of weird that Klavier is criticized for having no real presence in AJ but he has more lines than Godot

I think Klavier gets criticised for lacking a major role in the plot (and the game not doing enough with the fact that the main villain is his brother). He certainly doesn't lack for screentime though; he's one of the most present prosecutors during investigations in particular (partly because most of the rest are awkward introverts with often odd relations with at least one major character; he stands out for being able to carry on normal conversations easily).
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I actually sort of gained a newfound appreciation for Klavier on my AA4 replay. He's not so bad, the fact that he's a relatively normal guy instead of a brooding mysterious person with a dark past like... basically literally every other prosecutor, kind of makes him different, and I'm okay with that.

Klavier does get underutilized in 4-4 though. And arguably a bit at the end of 4-3, but he has good stuff earlier than that - I like that the first time in the ENTIRE GAME that Klavier shows any sign of surprise is when Lamiroir accuses Daryan. It's a good moment.

Yeah I actually like Klavier quite a bit and consider him refreshing. My complaints here are mostly knocks on AJ's storywriting decisions rather than about him.
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I find Klavier kind of frustrating as an opponent because he's inconsistently written (they try to portray him as a nice guy who only cares about the truth but he doesn't always come across that way in court), and his logic can often be kinda bad. He takes things and runs to extremes with them.
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klavier is just there, mostly. he doesn't have a commanding or even frustrating presence.
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I like that Apollo is just so used to being mocked and disrespected that when Athena starts complimenting his skill as a lawyer and showing him respect, he can't tell if she's being sincere or not.
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I was really impressed in 5-2 when Apollo was able to immediately make the connection that Rex Kyubi was the Amazing Nine-Tails (who has a great theme song, by the way) based on the white hair in the mask. That's usually the type of mystery the game lets sit even though it's completely obvious to the player (what happened to the Sacred Urn in 3-2 is the worst example of this).

which is what makes the swerve at the end even more incredible
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I posted this in my topic when discussing the whole series, but 5-2 is even more fun every time I play it, because of all the misdirection it throws at you. It's one of the few newer cases that doesn't assume the player is super dumb.
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L'Belle: I'll have you know, THAT is Brand No. 5, "Bonjour." It's MY way of introducing myself. Enjoy!
Apollo: (Where's my bottle of "Adieu" so I can return the favor?)

probably Apollo's best one-liner comeback
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5-2's twist is one of the very most underrated in the series imo, it's perfectly played

The misdirect of the white hair in the mask is just so good

5-2 Investigation Day 1 complete

Apollo has officially passed Maya for 4th place. I imagine he'll be in 3rd place by the time the case is over.
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5-2 is great, loving the love here.

It's supposed to introduce several new characters (we've technically met Athena in 5-1, but this is where she comes into her own) and be a hell of a lot of fun, and it succeeds at that... but it's also just a well-put together case in terms of twists and revealing of information.
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man I love Blackquill so much

him playing the Judge like a fiddle never gets old

Plus, he's the type of prosecutor Apollo needed. Klavier never really pushed him or challenged him that much.
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"My investigations are as thorough as they are foolproof, or my name isn't Fulbright!"

turns out he was right
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When Blackquill prevents Apollo from perceiving, that's the first time you know he really means business. It was also an interesting way to remove Perceive as a courtroom mechanic and relegate it to investigations only (where it makes more sense anyway).
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LeonhartFour posted...

"My investigations are as thorough as they are foolproof, or my name isn't Fulbright!"

turns out he was right

man, sometimes I wonder if stuff like this was intentional

and if it was it just makes me sadder that they didn't stick the landing on the fulbright reveal

they were so close! so close

Why would you think it isn't intentional? It's not like the writers didn't know the twist. There's a few other little hints that are funny in hindsight, like Jinxie calling him a ghost.
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I think they stuck the landing on the reveal. He just overstayed his welcome after landing. I still think overall that the showdown with the Phantom was pretty good though.
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I like how Jinxie completely disarms Blackquill by giving him a charm to help him sleep at night. She's pretty much the only person the entire first day who can handle him, especially once he breaks the shackles.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Why would you think it isn't intentional? It's not like the writers didn't know the twist. There's a few other little hints that are funny in hindsight, like Jinxie calling him a ghost.

I would say it wasn't written in quite the way that would make me 100% sure that they intended it. It's a common enough turn of phrase that it could have been coincidental and I can't think of a lot of other instances in the series of this kind of 'funny in hindsight' wordplay - it's not zero escape which is chock full of it for instance

5-2 trial day 1 complete. Man, this day is so good. Jinxie's Mood Matrix is probably the low point of the day, but just about everything else is fantastic. It might be the most dominant performance by a prosecutor outside of 1-4 or 2-4. Blackquill's just in control the entire time. My favorite part might be when he lures Damian into confessing, who then decides the best course of action is pretend to be Tenma Taro, and Simon just rolls with it. Apollo barely escapes with a scenario that turns out to be 100% wrong, which is great.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Apollo barely escapes with a scenario that turns out to be 100% wrong, which is great.

This is one of the most interesting things about this case to me. Is there another case in the series where the defense proposes a really good-sounding theory that gains traction but turns out to have absolutely no truth to it whatsoever? Like, I think there are times where the defense gives a theory that is incomplete or has wrong information but at least advances some notion of truth - this one is 100% wrong but gets him out of the day and I think it's the only time that happens

The end of the first day of 2-2 (which has a similar premise to 5-2) has Phoenix proposing that Maya left the room to explain how the Channeling Chamber Key was discovered outside of it. That's the only one that comes to mind.
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LeonhartFour posted...

The end of the first day of 2-2 (which has a similar premise to 5-2) has Phoenix proposing that Maya left the room to explain how the Channeling Chamber Key was discovered outside of it. That's the only one that comes to mind.

Why do both of these examples involve keys to a large door and a locked room mystery

Locked room mysteries allow for more absurd theories and possibilities in general.
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EDIT: Whoops, realised I misread Paratroopa's post. Yep, I see where you're coming from, now. It's hard to guess at what's intentional and what isn't, but I still suspect that line is. Like surely the writer realised the double meaning of it. I certainly caught it immediately on a replay.

LeonhartFour posted...

5-2 trial day 1 complete. Man, this day is so good. Jinxie's Mood Matrix is probably the low point of the day, but just about everything else is fantastic. It might be the most dominant performance by a prosecutor outside of 1-4 or 2-4. Blackquill's just in control the entire time. My favorite part might be when he lures Damian into confessing, who then decides the best course of action is pretend to be Tenma Taro, and Simon just rolls with it. Apollo barely escapes with a scenario that turns out to be 100% wrong, which is great.

I'd probably throw 2-2 into the mix, but agreed. Regardless, it's interesting how the most dominant prosecutorial jobs are from a prosecutor's first appearance (kinda, in Edgeworth's case; it's both his first appearance in JFA and his first since a long hiatus where he had a chance to do some soul-searching).

And yeah, seconding the "escaping with a 100% wrong theory" part being great. In most cases I feel like the theory would have been mostly right, and then you would have found the evidence proving it. Instead you have to keep investigating and unfurling the mystery.
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I feel like Phoenix is in control by the end of 2-2 day 1. There was no real desperation in an attempt to stay alive with his theory of Maya leaving the room. Franziska has him on the ropes for the first half, but in typical fashion, as soon as someone starts poking holes in her case, she begins to lose control because she can't handle not being perfect.
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LeonhartFour posted...

I feel like Phoenix is in control by the end of 2-2 day 1. There was no real desperation in an attempt to stay alive with his theory of Maya leaving the room..

I'd say the big difference between 2-2 and 5-2's locked room mystery is that the player knows that Maya could not have possibly escaped the room, because we were there with Phoenix as Maya entered the only way in the room up until the incident occurred. Even if Franziska is on the ropes, we know for a fact that Phoenix is stalling for the end of the day so we can dig up dirt on the obviously suspicious guilty parties, whereas an absurd theory about throwing keys into air vents is actually possible to the player in 5-2.
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Eh, Phoenix occasionally stalls for time with things he knows aren't correct, but it's not necessarily because he's desperate to survive. He accuses Oldbag of being the killer in 1-3 even though he knows she couldn't have done it. Apollo's situation feels different from stuff Phoenix has been in before, which is why I like it so much. Phoenix rarely gets thoroughly whipped the way Apollo did. 1-4 day 2 (until Larry saves the day) and 2-4 day 1 are probably the closest he gets.

Apollo's struggles on day 1 are what make his ultimate triumph on day 2 much more satisfying.
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Been driving most of the day, so I probably won't play any today.
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let's get Phoenix Wright into Smash Ultimate
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LeonhartFour posted...

let's get Phoenix Wright into Smash Ultimate

He has a good track record of getting into fighting games with Ultimate in the title, at least.
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"All right! But I won't have you calling me a bad guy ever again! Understood?!"

this time you're wrong
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Man, you seriously have no idea how happy I was the first time I played DD when Phoenix directly referenced 2-2 when discussing the case with Apollo. That was the first time I really thought everything was going to be okay again. One of the worst things about AJ is that it only acknowledges 1-5's existence.

also I'm realizing that Blackquill did in 5-2 what Phoenix did in 1-3 by going along with Damian Tenma claiming to be Tenma Taro

he knows it isn't true but he's rolling with it because it works in his favor

there's a little Phoenix Wright in everyone I guess
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It also made me happy when Phoenix finally decided to act like a mentor to Apollo and Athena after jerking Apollo's chain for most of AJ after 4-1. I like that Phoenix gives a piece of advice from the OT that each character struggles to work through and doesn't totally arrive at until 5-5. Phoenix tells Apollo to return to the basics: Always believe in your client, no matter what happens. After the defendants he had in AJ, you can understand why Apollo needed this advice! He doesn't totally arrive at this point until his cross-examination.

For Athena, Phoenix's piece of advice is, "The worst of times are when lawyers have to force their biggest smiles." Fittingly enough, Athena is finally able to put it into practice at the literal worst time right after she gets arrested and Starbuck says she smiled at him as she went in and he came out. I do kind of wish they had squeezed "The only time a lawyer can cry is when it's all over" in there somewhere since she cries after Blackquill gets acquitted at the end, too, but that was a Godot-ism and not something Phoenix learned from Mia.

Also, Phoenix mentions that he took multiple trips to Europe to study their legal systems, so maybe that's when you can squeeze Layton/AA in there. Maybe Edgeworth pulled some strings so he could still practice law in Europe even after he was disbarred or something. Probably not, but who knows!
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also as someone who was a huge wrestling fan growing up I kinda love that your biggest hint that Damian is the Amazing Nine-Tails is how much he hams it up as Tenma Taro
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LeonhartFour posted...

also as someone who was a huge wrestling fan growing up I kinda love that your biggest hint that Damian is the Amazing Nine-Tails is how much he hams it up as Tenma Taro

I never really thought of it that way, mostly because isn't everyone is a ham in Ace Attorney?

(now, the fact that he's a former wrestler-turned-mayor in Capcom game should have been the real giveaway.)
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Damian is a different kind of ham because he's playing a character that isn't really himself (well, two counting the Amazing Nine-Tails). Also, he's a mayor turned pro wrestler. Rex Kyubi is the former pro wrestler turned politician.
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Damian Tenma is like, my most underrated character in the series

He's one of my favorites but nobody ever talks about him!

I like how quickly he goes from scary and intimidating to obviously a super good dude and him going in-character to throw a wrench into the trial is just fucking awesome

He's so fucking cool

Yeah, he's probably the guy I'd move up the most if I were to redo my character rankings from a couple years ago. Even at the time, I regretted putting him as low as I did.
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damian being the amazing ninetails is so, so good

vies with 5-4's moving station for the best twist in the main game!
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I lowered the ladder like the detective in charge of the evacuation told me to
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Probably the only time Apollo acts like PW1 Phoenix is when he shows the blackmail letter to L'Belle, only to predictably have it taken from him.
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The Forbidden Chamber is a really cool investigation location. One of the best spots in DD for sure.
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5-2 investigation day 2 complete. It's hard to tell so far, but it seems like the assistant suffers more than the main character in line count with free investigations removed. The line count is still high compared to everyone else, but the assistant used to at least stay fairly close to the attorney during investigations.
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Also, Apollo is officially in third place now.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Damian Tenma is like, my most underrated character in the series

He's one of my favorites but nobody ever talks about him!

I like how quickly he goes from scary and intimidating to obviously a super good dude and him going in-character to throw a wrench into the trial is just fucking awesome

He's so fucking cool

Tenma's great. Probably my favourite pure defendant in the series (by which I mean he's not an established major character like Edgeworth, and not actually the villain).
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