Board 8 > Save My Favorite Final Fantasy Characters XIX: Day 37 [smfffc]

(+) Yeah! (+)

do conjurers count as white mages
---

maybe if they conjure heals
---

do red mages count as white mages

they can heal

usually blue mages too
---

Nah I separate Healers from White Mages

Sometimes the best Healers in a game aren't white Mages
---

I mean FFXIV conjurers, which is the primary class of White Mages


like, in XIV, Conjurer is a Class, and White Mage is a Job. Once you get your Class (Conjurer) to level 30 you get to take on the higher level Job (White Mage).


I ask because Y'shtola is a Conjurer
---

Conjurers and Red Mages learn a ton of black magic in order to justify their presence so no, they aren't white mages.
---

WhiteLens posted...

I once said that Rosa is the Perfect Final Fantasy waifu, and I still stand by that!

- Loyal and devoted lover
- Still willing to retain friendship over friend who kidnapped her
- Loving and caring mother
- Can fight with a bow and also heal

10/10 waifu material right there

See I knew someone had my back

Also I would rather take someone inoffensive/generic over someone super offensive a la Vaan or early XIII Hope
---

how is Vaan super offensive

The real reason Vaan is bad is that he's a boring guy being pushed as the protagonist in a game where half the playable cast does a better job of being a protagonist than he does. In terms of characterization, he's kinda boring and inoffensive with the exception of silly stuff like HEY BUCKET HEAD and DON'T BELIEVE ONDORE'S LIES.
---

those paint-on abs are offensive
---

his sense of style is pretty offensive yeah

that's fair
---

no Vaan is very much horribly annoying as a character as well as being a worthless "lead"
---

Vaan is a completely generic character. He's not offensive, he just has no business being the lead or being a party member in general.
---

If only he had bunny ears.
---

v_charon posted...

If only he had bunny ears.

Then he'd be one of Fran's generic forgettable sisters.
---

Vaan coulda worked if he had been a more modern zidane.

Zidand could at the very least take care of himself and assumed a leadership role while being the fresh faced monkey boy.

Vaan was just tagging along with people who had major political backgrounds.
---

voltch posted...

Vaan coulda worked if he had been a more modern zidane.

Zidand could at the very least take care of himself and assumed a leadership role while being the fresh faced monkey boy.

Vaan was just tagging along with people who had major political backgrounds.

I can see that. It doesn't help that the role Vaan is trying to fill gets filled in a more-developed manner by a cool, classy character like Balthier.
---

I feel like it was mostly a combination of design and va that makes Vaan Trigger me

Basch is basically the main character and Vaan is basically just a fan of Balthier so the vanilla stuff doesn't bother me so much?

I imagine I would hate FF9 way more if there was voice acting in that game though (I like it before the fanatics try to kill me!)
---

The thing is that Vaan's not bad for being a nobody lead - there's honestly a ton of those that don't bother me anywhere near the way Vaan does. But with Vaan he is very much all over the game. His inputs are there, they're just all uninformed worthless interjections because of how he has nothing to do with anything. Vaan is one of those characters that, whenever they speak, you just wish they'd shut up and get out.
---

You can be a main character without being the most important cog in the plot.

VII and X do that pretty well, but the MC is supposed to be someone you rely on to achieve the main goal.

Vaan feels more like an observer, the cast doesn't really turn to him for support. Like VII has the whole cast trying to drag Cloud out of his misery because he's the only one capable of continuing what aeris had started.

Ashe shoulda been the mc, still mad they changed her face. Nosepicking ashe looked way better.
---

Best thing about Rosa is her VA being the same one as Aigis and Nanako, but it's a waste being used for somebody so boring. Same goes for Liam O'Brien voicing Kain.

CelesMyUserName posted...

The thing is that Vaan's not bad for being a nobody lead - there's honestly a ton of those that don't bother me anywhere near the way Vaan does. But with Vaan he is very much all over the game. His inputs are there, they're just all uninformed worthless interjections because of how he has nothing to do with anything. Vaan is one of those characters that, whenever they speak, you just wish they'd shut up and get out.

One of my favorite things about Ashe is the fact that she always tells Vaan to shut up whenever he tries to talk during an important scene.
---

Does this still need to stay bumped?
---

greengravy294 posted...

ff1: n/a
ff2: n/a
ff3: n/a
ff4: cecil
ff5: didn't play
ff6: kefka
ff7: zack, cloud, sephiroth
ff8: n/a
ff9: vivi, kuja, plenty of others but ff9 actually had good cast direction because characters actually have character arcs in it who knew
ff10: jecht
ff11: lol
ff12: n/a
ff13: fuck this game
ff14: n/a

lol this list.
---

Like calling FF on being generic then listing Cecil as all characters as something that stands out when he's literally every generic Lawful Good character ever.

I guess all you need to appease Gravy is to cosplay as the opposite alignment for part of the game. Kain Rydia and Golbez-- hell, Rubicante-- are all significantly less cliche characters with more depth from that game imo. Not that one dimensional characters are even bad but listing Cecil as one who isn't because the game gives him a cosmetic change is hilarious.
---

I think there are things to like in cecil's arc. it's like an underdeveloped ramza arc or something. it's a good person coming to terms with/developing the courage to betray family and country in the name of what is right, not an evil person becoming good.
---

which, admittedly, wholly defangs the dark knight -> Saladin transformation but, yknow. death of the author and all that.
---

Strict Lawful Good characters are really not that common in protagonists nowadays, especially not Final Fantasy.

I think Cecil is definitely unique enough for that alone, especially with a nice opening that tells us he was more Lawful than Good in the past.
---

That's a nice coat of paint to put on it, but I don't really agree that change is shown in the story any better than the more obvious one they failed at.

I mean that arc basically goes:
- Cecil has some misgivings about the last thing they did, struggles with it a bit
- Cecil speaks up
- Baron gives Cecil bomb
- Baron dicks over Cecil repeatedly.

Not really any development beyond the Kaipo Inn there, and I feel even that is being generous. Most of the plot there is Cecil getting in a position to strike back more than having any sort of internal struggle over whether to do so.
---

OlDirtyNumbers posted...

it's a good person coming to terms with/developing the courage to betray family and country in the name of what is right, not an evil person becoming good.

Thankfully family and country is only evil because it was taken over by aliens
---

pjbasis posted...

OlDirtyNumbers posted...

it's a good person coming to terms with/developing the courage to betray family and country in the name of what is right, not an evil person becoming good.

Thankfully family and country is only evil because it was taken over by aliens

yeah but cecil didn't know that when he made the decision!!! but yes.

responding to lopen when I get home the phones about dead goodbye my friends.
---

WhiteLens posted...

Does this still need to stay bumped?

We have a separate discussion topic, so not really.

Feel free to use this topic if you want though!
---

Now I do think that story could be told with the events of FFIV. I think a lot could be gained by Cecil not fighting the Baron dudes in the Kaipo inn, or having him encounter them and somehow talking out of it, then having it come to force a bit later-- and maybe having the bombs be something a bit more subtle so Cecil sorta has a "was this intended?" moment. Using the Red Wings attack on the spoony bard's castle to really be the tipping point of "okay yeah these guys I'm with are really bad news now wtf."

But yeah basically there's no real progression there. It basically feels like Cecil's already made the decision and he's just carrying it out. No real building to it, hesitation in doing it, or second guessing after the fact. Maybe it's a fault of the execution more than the vision, but I ain't dealin in theoretical characters.
---

OlDirtyNumbers posted...

which, admittedly, wholly defangs the dark knight -> Saladin transformation but, yknow. death of the author and all that.

Man, Cecil becoming Saladin would cause him to just win this every time and rightfully so

>_>

But yeah, Cecil is more of a vehicle for all the crazy twists and turns in the FFIV plot. There's always some crazy plot twist where somebody is betraying or controlling or sacrificing it's hard to keep up!
---

Cecil is okay

Kain is better but that's less about depth and more about being a cool dragoon
---

Hey, that was my logic to liking Kain when I was 10 years old!
---

Cool dragoons are timeless man
---

Dragoon best class
---

I will reiterate that I do actually like Cecil though. I just feel like his fans tend to exaggerate how much depth and uniqueness there is to the guy. Random Lawful Good guy is something that isn't done to death in FF, and he's likable enough without veering into boring for me, but that's all he really is when it comes down to it.

I do think Kain and Rydia have a lot more going for them though. A lot of this is reading the thought bubbles in FFIV: DS when you enter menus at various points in the story which I think fleshes those two out more than most. Like Kain definitely has some underlying jealousy towards Cecil he's dealing with that lets Golbez use him-- it's not just "mind control lol." That's there without the thought bubbles too to some extent but it's more subtle and kinda dumbs it down to both of em liking Rosa which I'm not sure quite fleshes it out enough for my tastes.

Rydia gets less out of that, but I do like how in the final dungeon (Zemus's corrupting HATRED) she has some moments where she's wondering if maybe she should just be hanging with Eidolons and not totally forgiving Cecil for his part in the bomb thing. Rydia's just got the most going for her in general in terms of depth with or without superior DS Version though.
---

man why does my phone want to use Saladin over paladin. it also tried to autocorrect 'like' into 'pile' but i caught that one

anyway, i agree the plotline is underdeveloped (and called it as such!) but i think there's more there to support it than the idea that Cecil was EVIL as a DARK KNIGHT. Just because it's mostly resolved by Kaipo doesn't make it Not There, it just makes it disappointing. Which, sure -- but I think it's on the level of the Kain's and Rydia's of the world. A lot more condensed, though. What you laid out is definitely a superior way to get that across.

yeaaah f5ing before posting. i haven't played ff4 ds (i stopped somewhere around whatever Yang's place as called i forget) but totally fair if the thought bubbles do more for non-cecil characters.
---

It doesn't do a ton but I thought they were cool. Edge actually gets more than Cecil (and Rosa) does too. Like he puts on this big front but then he has a lot more self doubt in the thought bubbles-- Zemus's CORRUPTING HATRED has him actually being kinda straight up cowardly in the last dungeon. He's all like "I could just run! Why am I helping these people anyway!?" or something like that.
---

while zemus''s hatred, otherwise known as zeromus is at hand, and because there was some ff4 tay talk the other day, i should mention the stupidest/best part of that game

zeromus is revived using his malice to be a late game boss in that (aptly named 'zeromus's malice'. so you fight zemus's hatred's malice

what a dumb fuckin game
---

If you're gonna cop out with a left field endgame boss the dumber the better I say
---

ff9 shoulda taken notes
---

just wait for FFIX-2: Necron's Revenge
---

That's a lot of waiting so far.
---

the PS4 port is just a harbinger of the impending sequel
---

Man they skipped over VIII

So weird
---

well they're planning a full FFVIII expanded universe so they need a little more time to get it ready before they send the port as the harbinger of that announcement
---

man don't play with fire. do you really want an ff8 extended universe
---

OlDirtyNumbers posted...

man don't play with fire. do you really want an ff8 extended universe

hello I'm LeonhartFour it's nice to meet you
---