Board 8 > What do people generally think of Metal Gear Solid V?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I liked the references and the fact that they fit a game full of callbacks and references, but that's somewhat detached from my enjoyment of them ingame. Like it's almost an asterisk.
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Uh, they were in no way references to MGS2 bosses. And they mostly weren't even direct references to particular MGS3 bosses, though the naming convention obviously comes from them.

Edit: Oh, I guess there is the whole railgun thing.
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Absolutely incredible game mechanics but drops the ball hard in every other way.
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B&Bs backstory for each one was meh, but they were fine. Probably the weakest of the 4 units and what not, but they werent bad.
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kevwaffles posted...

Uh, they were in no way references to MGS2 bosses.

They use the weapons that Dead Cell used.
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kevwaffles posted...

Uh, they were in no way references to MGS2 bosses. And they mostly weren't even direct references to particular MGS3 bosses, though the naming convention obviously comes from them.

Edit: Oh, I guess there is the whole railgun thing.

Their emotions! (Their emotions!)

Raging Raven was the Fury. And blew shit up like Fatman. Right?
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LeonhartFour posted...

kevwaffles posted...

Uh, they were in no way references to MGS2 bosses.

They use the weapons that Dead Cell used.

I edited in the railgun while you were typing that. I guess Laughing Octopus would be like Solidus (who is not Dead Cell but definitely an MGS2 boss). Trying to think what else, though.
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Raging Raven uses explosives. Screaming Mantis has throwing knives. Laughing Octopus also uses the same gun Solidus used.
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I think the plot relevance of FOXHOUND is a bit overblown. Vulcan Raven was B&B tier, and frankly so is Psycho Mantis and he's just given a pass because his boss fight is awesome. I mean it's the best set from a character perspective but yeah.
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The difference is that MGS1 actually presents Mantis's and Raven's backstories in a way that they don't feel like an "oh by the way in case you were wondering what the deal is with this guy let me read what the guide says" from someone who has nothing to do with them. They're integrated into the story much more naturally.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Raging Raven uses explosives. Screaming Mantis has throwing knives. Laughing Octopus also uses the same gun Solidus used.

Ah yeah I was trying to remember about that. Solidus' P90 was so sweet

When I was 13 he was the coolest motherfucker around. The Harrier fight used to be one of my favourites solely because it was preceded by the cutscene with him sliding around and dodging grenade launchers and shit. And man when he killed all those metal gears

Dude was so legit
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I don't really agree. I think they're all kinda shoehorned in one's just a lot more blatant about it.
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But they're shoehorned in a way that they don't feel shoehorned, like B&B's do. There's a reason why FOXHOUND is remembered the most fondly out of all these groups. Presentation absolutely matters.

You're looking at this like you're looking at a bunch of recipes, and you see they're all made up of mostly the same ingredients, so the conclusion is that they must all taste the same. That's not really how this works.
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Lopen posted...

Vulcan Raven was B&B tier, and frankly so is Psycho Mantis

Vulcan having two fights, a conversation with Ocelot, and actual legitimate human dialogue with Snake, as well as divulging crucial plot info when you beat him, put him well above the B and Bs.

I'm not saying he's SUPER IMPORTANT but B+B tier is a massive exaggeration. As it is with Mantis, whose powers play a big role in the plot. Even Liquid saying stuff like "the soldiers' brainwashing is wearing off since Mantis died so morale is down" is good for that, and it's one throwaway line. Then there's all the other shit he did throughout. Way more involved and integrated.
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I'm saying they do feel shoehorned to me. Always had. I almost appreciated Drebin just randomly giving you a backstory dump because it was at least kinda funny in that way.
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Metal Gear Solid V is the Trails in the Sky of Assassin's Creed.
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I mean they're all shoehorned in the sense that Kojima needed boss battles, but they're all given time in cutscenes to stretch out beyond that. Even the member who got no in-character dialogue played a crucial role!

There's no comparison with the B and Bs and it's a struggle to even compare them to any of the Cobras outside the Boss and Sorrow.
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I meant the backstories/characterization, specifically, are shoehorned.

I agree the boss fights themselves tend to come up at times that fit into the plot better but that doesn't really make the characters better, or set a significantly better amount of hype to facing them or anything like that since none of em are built up much as a big deal fight aside from Sniper Wolf.
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They're shoehorned in the sense that someone giving a deathbed confession to the person who just killed them is unnatural, but it was part of MGS1's charm to such an extent that it became a series expectation. People liked the fact that Kojima attempted to humanize FOXHOUND a bit before they died. These guys who seemed like pure evil a minute ago suddenly feel like they're not all that bad. The B&B backstories don't really do that.
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Psycho Mantis has pretty great build-up

Also I think in terms of personality Raven and the BBs are kind of Apples and Oranges. Raven is a soldier on a mission - an exceptional soldier and his background does require examination, but that's what he is. In terms of personality and experience he's relatively simple to explain and what we get of him is satisfactory - he's mostly about design. Meanwhile the BBs are robots until they aren't, at which point a far more complex and tragic backstory is explained.

Mantis with his dying monologue fits this more, though they tie it much more closely to the game's themes and to Snake. (Because it's an actual conversation, if nothing else)
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LeonhartFour posted...

They're shoehorned in the sense that someone giving a deathbed confession to the person who just killed them is unnatural, but it was part of MGS1's charm to such an extent that it became a series expectation. People liked the fact that Kojima attempted to humanize FOXHOUND a bit before they died. These guys who seemed like pure evil a minute ago suddenly feel like they're not all that bad. The B&B backstories don't really do that.

FOXHOUND were all humanized to at least some degree well before they died, I thought. Except Mantis perhaps.
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Eh, I don't think they're really portrayed in any sort of sympathetic light until you beat them. Even with Otacon's fawning over Wolf, it's clear the dude just has Stockholm Syndrome, and she doesn't show an ounce of regard for him or Snake before the boss fight.

It's weird, but Ocelot is probably humanized the least of all of FOXHOUND in MGS1 despite being one of the most important characters in the series.
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Even with the Cobras you at least got a sense of their personality, even if it was mostly superficial. With the B&Bs you got...Kojima using his budget to mocap models nude and then figuring out a way to make use of that later (probably).

It also makes a sense why FOXHOUND would feel some camaraderie with Solid Snake.
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LeonhartFour posted...

It's weird, but Ocelot is probably humanized the least of all of FOXHOUND in MGS1 despite being one of the most characters in the series.

This I'll agree with, but between that and immediately losing an arm it struck me as a way to mask his importance and the fact that he'll survive.
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Well, that and he's the first boss of the game.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Eh, I don't think they're really portrayed in any sort of sympathetic light until you beat them. Even with Otacon's fawning over Wolf, it's clear the dude just has Stockholm Syndrome, and she doesn't show an ounce of regard for him or Snake before the boss fight.

It's weird, but Ocelot is probably humanized the least of all of FOXHOUND in MGS1 despite being one of the most important characters in the series.

Sympathy and humanization aren't the same thing though. Yeah, I didn't feel sorry for Raven when he was trying to flatten me with a tank, but thanks to the preceding cutscene I understood a bit about him as a human. Same with Wolf, well beyond the romance with Otacon.

(Also the files you can watch and the codec conversations with Naomi throughout the game give you nuggets of info)
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Yeah. If you like deathbed story dumps over Drebin being silly, then it's better. To me it's like basically the same thing, though.

Basically like, your bar for whether something feels forced is somewhere between where the beauties are and where most of MGS's bad guys are-- mine basically puts em all under the bar aside from a few of the more significant names.

Course I shamelessly like characters that are shallow so the bar doesn't really matter much to me, so arbitrarily setting it higher is something I can do since I'm not judging myself for thinking The Fury is awesome, even though there's not really anything to him.
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the problem is that it doesn't even come across as Drebin being silly to me

it comes across like "I was told to read this to you after you won so here it is"
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There's a certain flair in the way he tells the stories that to me really feels like he's just bsing you, or embellishing liberally to tell an entertaining story.
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LeonhartFour posted...

the problem is that it doesn't even come across as Drebin being silly to me

it comes across like "I was told to read this to you after you won so here it is"

It probably literally was that!
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And I don't particularly care if the villains are deep or fleshed out or whatever. I'll take The Sorrow over pretty much every villain in the series other than Ocelot because he's cool.

I'm just saying the way B&B's stuff is handled is pretty different from FOXHOUND's, even if the basic outline is the same.
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Right.

And I'm saying they're both not really handled very well to the point where to me it's like... neither one is really trying it's just MGSIV isn't even pretending to. You clearly feel differently but yeah I'll never really get the love for FOXHOUND.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Metal Gear Solid V is the Trails in the Sky of Assassin's Creed.

Only compared to Mario Kart 8 though
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Lopen posted...

Right.

And I'm saying they're both not really handled very well to the point where to me it's like... neither one is really trying it's just MGSIV isn't even pretending to. You clearly feel differently but yeah I'll never really get the love for FOXHOUND.

FOXHOUND is kinda like Algus in FFT. They're not very complex characters, but you get to know them as you go along so when the final fight with them comes, it's got stakes and importance. The B&B unit is so depersonalized you can't even hate them, because it's like hating an attack dog whose owner says 'GET EM BOY'. You hate the owner, not the doggo.
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It's also worth noting that MGSV's final boss is terrible compared to the others (though I never finished PW or played PO). MGS4 has a lot of flaws, but at least it nailed the final boss.
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Honestly, the worst part about MGSV's final boss is that it shouldn't be the final boss. I don't have particular complaints about it when you don't compare it to anything else in the series, though I don't have high praise either.

PO tried with its boss fights but ultimately they weren't great because the mechanics just weren't there, though the final boss probably worked better than most of the game. PW said fuck it we're discount Monster Hunter (to the point they literally have Monster Hunter fights as extras) and it was serviceable.
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Jeff Zero posted...

this is the most "trust me guise, Kojima is secretly a closet super genius" thing I've read all week

You don't need some theories to come to such a conclusion (also "closet," what?)... Just playing the games is enough to see the fact that he is a genius.
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thanks for that Luster
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Nothing in this topic has motivated me to go out and play MGSV!
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KamikazePotato posted...

Nothing in this topic has motivated me to go out and play MGSV!

You should play it once if you consider yourself a fan of MGS. Despite its problems, there is some good stuff in there.

But once will probably be enough.
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MGSV doesn't have a final boss
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KamikazePotato posted...

Nothing in this topic has motivated me to go out and play MGSV!

It makes replaying MGS3 feel fucking INCREDIBLE, like playing it for the first time again. It's like edging for a whole month and then finally busting. I actually cried during the first Boss CQC codec conversation.
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you'd be better off telling him how much better it makes MGS2 on replays
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I haven't tried that but it probably works just as well
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