Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Dark Samus Raiden Lightning Morrigan Poison Dizzy vs. Diablo and Chrom

(+) Yeah! (+)

MajinZidane posted...

I don't think it's disingenuous for me to argue "GameFAQs Dizzy" on any terrain because of Poison tho.

That's fair

But people still stick with GameFAQs Dizzy even in matches where it's clear that Poison will die quickly.

Because waifu
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Gatarix posted...

Poison is a game changer, though I think Dizzy still tries to obey Poison's orders in line with her own personality as much as possible. For instance if Poison just says "Attack!" then I think Dizzy would not immediately go for lethal force (while still obeying the letter of the command).

Yeah that's basically the gist of it.

Poison helps but there are still two-three limiters there, depending on the match.

1. As Drak said, Dizzy's personality is still interpreting the command.
2. Poison isn't really known as a tactical mastermind so she really isn't likely to tell Dizzy to do anything more nuanced than 'attack'
3. Many battle scenarios Poison giving commands is not a given due to imminent death.
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Spoilers Poison is a terrible enabler for Dizzy

If you go look at her strekken trailer she's a dumb vain showoff who gets blindsided when an opponent is better than she expects

I have never bought into gamefaqs Dizzy for this reason, Poison isn't a great solution for her
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I think the idea of this passive Dizzy who is afraid of her own power isn't true to who she is anymore. Granted I only know a little of Xrd's story, but what I do know she seems to either have more control over her power or no longer fears hurting others as much.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Spoilers Poison is a terrible enabler for Dizzy

If you go look at her strekken trailer she's a dumb vain showoff who gets blindsided when an opponent is better than she expects

I have never bought into gamefaqs Dizzy for this reason, Poison isn't a great solution for her

This is actually a super good point. Poison directs Hugo to go attack King and Marduk, and then, despite having only two targets to actually pay attention to, somehow pays so little attention to the action that Craig Marduk of all people sneaks up on her.
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p much. Basically Poison is good for saying 'attack' and then dying. For anything more she is a detriment, not a plus.
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Corrik posted...

Lopen posted...

I'm talking about 'Dizzy gets attacked, dodges, and fights at full capacity the whole time '

Why even put any bold there if that's all it amounts to.

Samus can't survive diablos initial barrage without suit debilitating effects. Anyone arguing otherwise is insane. Then a compromised samus versus both chrom and diablo is an easy mop up before the others come into the fight.

Literally normal Samus could. Parameter-boosted Dark Samus definitely could.

There's also the fact that if Damus eats the entire RLH, everyone else is OK, except Morrigan who probably jobs to Chrom before snapping awake.

But let's pretend for a second that over the duration of the stun, exactly Morrigan and Damus die, which is more than generous. You can even say that Lightning is injured if you want. It doesn't really matter because Raiden can almost solo this fight, and he's not going to just job before the walking-- excuse me, flying nuke Dizzy shows up.
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Chillglad posted...

Corrik posted...

Lopen posted...

I'm talking about 'Dizzy gets attacked, dodges, and fights at full capacity the whole time '

Why even put any bold there if that's all it amounts to.

Samus can't survive diablos initial barrage without suit debilitating effects. Anyone arguing otherwise is insane. Then a compromised samus versus both chrom and diablo is an easy mop up before the others come into the fight.

Literally normal Samus could. Parameter-boosted Dark Samus definitely could.

There's also the fact that if Damus eats the entire RLH, everyone else is OK, except Morrigan who probably jobs to Chrom before snapping awake.

But let's pretend for a second that over the duration of the stun, exactly Morrigan and Damus die, which is more than generous. You can even say that Lightning is injured if you want. It doesn't really matter because Raiden can almost solo this fight, and he's not going to just job before the walking-- excuse me, flying nuke Dizzy shows up.

How could Dark samus eat the entire thing? Its an area of effect weapon. Like I said, 3 of them are dead and Dark Samus is in a compromised suit afterwards.
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BTW, just doing some quick vote record checks on how me and Alany usually vote...

Week 1: Both voted for scare
Week 2: Nothing
Week 3: Nothing
Week 4: Alany votes Rocket (LU BU SOLOS), Kanzaris votes Gravy (RAIDEN SOLOS); Alany votes Johnbobb (Kirbcher SOLOS), Kanzaris votes Eaed (Fetch outlasts and overcomes); Both vote for Bass vs Corrik
Week 5: Both vote for Boko vs. Scare; Both vote for Eddv vs. Skyridge
Week 6: Both vote for Kamek vs Tiro
Week 7: Nothing
Week 8: Both vote for Mewtwo vs Chris
Week 9: Both vote for Jeezy vs Scare (Weltall in a panic match); Both vote for Johnbobb vs Tom (Potemkin vs Megaman)
Week 10: Both vote for Scare vs. Jeezy (Raziel vs Nepyuffie)
Week 11: Both vote for Tirofog vs. Eddv

If you discount matches where only one of us voted, that's a 2/12 divergence rate, or 16.67%. Divergence between me and other voters I'd say usually vote like me (such as drakeryn) was around 25%. Does a 9% difference warrant a vote ban? Is it significant? You tell me.

EDIT: Forgot the Grigori vs Turok match (last one of the Chris/Mewtwo series, I didn't catch it at first glance because I didn't search 'Chess'). That brings the numbers up to 3/13, or 23% divergence rate. Should I start banning everyone below a certain threshold of vote divergence with me? If so, which?
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For reference, KJH and numbers had a divergence rate of something like 10% across M2 using the matches on the mercs board. Also a 100% rate of KJH voting for Numbers. Pretty sure that if you included non-board matches (theoretically records might exist with admin access to TR's board?), the number dips lower and lower than that for divergences.
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Ban all gamefaqs dizzy voters imo
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Ban all voters
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I never supported banning Alany here even a little. I'm sure there are other voter pairs with more groupthink than you two.

But she said 'several' and I just pointed out that was a silly word to use.
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Corrik posted...

Chillglad posted...

Corrik posted...

Lopen posted...

I'm talking about 'Dizzy gets attacked, dodges, and fights at full capacity the whole time '

Why even put any bold there if that's all it amounts to.

Samus can't survive diablos initial barrage without suit debilitating effects. Anyone arguing otherwise is insane. Then a compromised samus versus both chrom and diablo is an easy mop up before the others come into the fight.

Literally normal Samus could. Parameter-boosted Dark Samus definitely could.

There's also the fact that if Damus eats the entire RLH, everyone else is OK, except Morrigan who probably jobs to Chrom before snapping awake.

But let's pretend for a second that over the duration of the stun, exactly Morrigan and Damus die, which is more than generous. You can even say that Lightning is injured if you want. It doesn't really matter because Raiden can almost solo this fight, and he's not going to just job before the walking-- excuse me, flying nuke Dizzy shows up.

How could Dark samus eat the entire thing? Its an area of effect weapon. Like I said, 3 of them are dead and Dark Samus is in a compromised suit afterwards.

An area of effect where the width is exactly 1 person wide... If he hits multiple people with the attack, it's literally to almost no effect because he's only hitting one at a time, and therefore hitting each for less than a second. The only exception to this is if they happen to start in such a way that two are standing one in front of the other relative to Diablo, in which case they both might be eliminated or heavily damaged before the stun is up. Unless you just think they start in a group hug? Or maybe they appear already arranged in a nice dog pile. Then you can even add a couple seconds to the damage while they untangle themselves after the stun is up! Clearly the team just jobs.

No. There's too many people on the opposing team who could easily win this fight solo, including one who doesn't even get stunned on arrival, such that it doesn't even matter whether Damus or Raiden can eat an entire RLH or not (she, at least, can), because only one or two people are going to get hit by RLH, or else everyone takes moderate damage from it, leaving both the aforementioned fast, heavy hitters alive.
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Oh, BTW @Lopen

If you need a Dark Samus durability feat that isn't vs Phazon:

https://youtu.be/_lHValMxn-w?t=339

This is from an inferior form compared to her MP3 appearance, but fuck it, close enough. Does that seem like a decent reason to have durability respect? I figured I may as well provide something as to why I think she doesn't job to non-Phazon. Takes a solid amount of punishment from probably the best Metroid Prime arsenal. It's not as much as her actual MP3 boss fight, but close enough. Solid lore hype in that entry that pops up as well.
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who are you @Chillglad
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I'm not saying ban Alany

I was just asking since I've only ever seen them not vote the same as you in matches that were basically already decided, anyway, and they always seem to argue passionately only in close matches that you are arguing as well.
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StealThisSheen posted...

I'm not saying ban Alany

I was just asking since I've only ever seen them not vote the same as you in matches that were basically already decided, anyway, and they always seem to argue passionately only in close matches that you are arguing as well.

This is very not true and you don't really have to take my word for it. Go to a certain board-cataloging site and search 'fight'. Look for matches where Alany votes and I don't. There's a surprising number of them. Those weren't included here in the recount - and you can also see that we disagreed in two debatable matches (Johnbobb vs Eaed and more importantly Mewtwo vs Chris pt. III).

(The Lu Bu match is also an example where I didn't argue and Alany did if you need one. That one was a turbostomp to me in Raiden's favor)
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If it's not true, you don't need to defend it.

It's just my own observation of being the case far more than it isn't.
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@StealThisSheen

Thank you for the support of my team through this version of mercs, I recall you supporting my guys often so thanks for showing up!
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And frankly, even if it were true 100% of the time, it doesn't warrant a ban.

The only time I think Alany warranted a ban was when they were going out of their way to vote against... Mewtwo, was it?
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ScareChan posted...

@StealThisSheen

Thank you for the support of my team through this version of mercs, I recall you supporting my guys often so thanks for showing up!

It was a good team, and I definitely think you got a raw deal in this match, but what can you do
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StealThisSheen posted...

If it's not true, you don't need to defend it.

It's just my own observation of being the case far more than it isn't.

That is exactly why I need to make a defense against that preconception. Because I intend to disabuse you of a notion of untruth that is pretty deep-seated to the point of becoming borderline memetic. I'd rather you not think that because Alany deserves more credit than that, and I am meticulous enough with record-keeping to be able to point towards proof. We usually do vote similarly because we are friends, and thus share similar viewpoints on most things, but we don't flat out persuade each other to vote one way or another anymore than Drakeryn and HGR do, or any other pair of pals you can think of.
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I was just saying on Discord is that if I did anything this mercs is I made Bass look legit so I am very happy for that
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

If it's not true, you don't need to defend it.

It's just my own observation of being the case far more than it isn't.

That is exactly why I need to make a defense against that preconception. Because I intend to disabuse you of a notion of untruth that is pretty deep-seated to the point of becoming borderline memetic. I'd rather you not think that because Alany deserves more credit than that, and I am meticulous enough with record-keeping to be able to point towards proof. We usually do vote similarly because we are friends, and thus share similar viewpoints on most things, but we don't flat out persuade each other to vote one way or another anymore than Drakeryn and HGR do, or any other pair of pals you can think of.

If I'm being 100% honest, I think YOU deserve more credit than that, but Alany has proven to be petty and biased.

Like I said, I don't think it's an issue.

I already barely credit Alany arguments, anyway, and it has nothing to do with you.
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ScareChan posted...

who are you @Chillglad

I'm not sure how you mean. I'm not an alt (well, I technically am, but haven't logged in on my original account in years and have used this one more than I ever used that one, anyway), if that's what you're asking.
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I think Team Diablo wins this one in the end, but it's close enough that I wouldn't call it a robbery.

I just didn't feel like actually voting because some of the arguments in this match made me feel gross.

(dizzy is a horrible merc)
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Chillglad posted...

ScareChan posted...

who are you @Chillglad

I'm not sure how you mean. I'm not an alt (well, I technically am, but haven't logged in on my original account in years and have used this one more than I ever used that one, anyway), if that's what you're asking.

I saw you are an established account but I dont recall you voting elsewhere but you seemed pretty versed, so just curious who you were as you didnt seem familiar
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

If you need a Dark Samus durability feat that isn't vs Phazon:

Still don't see how that gives Dark Samus any durability cred vs magic. Gives her durability vs physical attacks. Not necessarily an indicator of MDEF or HP
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Well I mean, she's gotta have some level of HP to tank Samus shots unless you think her DEF is basically 'yes' and that literally everything nonmagical will deal chip damage to her

But yeah, it's fair that there's no 'MDEF' showings, Metroid is sci-fi after all. I just wanted to point at something that says that Damus probably takes a while to kill even if you think her MP3 fight is bunk.
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Well, like, RPGs have these kinda things as a common trope. Like, enemies that are made of rock or heavy metal or whatever, they tend to have a defense stat that's utterly through the roof to where your best physical hitters are doing like 4 damage per hit, and then they job hard to magic. Even the low level stuff.

Given Dark Samus literally is sentient radioactive material in the form of armor, I think there's plenty of reason to think she falls into that trope. Especially since she never really takes any sort of visible damage-- like getting a hole blown in her and appearing weakened but still trucking would lend a lot more to the idea she has HP
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Even though I've used the argument myself, in a FMV scenario, it's kind of hard for me to understand the difference between magical and non-magical damage. What is it about being a magical fire/lightning attack that means it can fry through enemies that wouldn't be fazed by non-magical fire/lightning? Unless it being magical just means "more potent," but in that case tech and magic are the same thing.
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I've always kinda seen magic and non-magic energy defense as the same thing unless there's like specific magic defenses.

trdl23 posted...

Even though I've used the argument myself, in a FMV scenario, it's kind of hard for me to understand the difference between magical and non-magical damage. What is it about being a magical fire/lightning attack that means it can fry through enemies that wouldn't be fazed by non-magical fire/lightning? Unless it being magical just means "more potent," but in that case tech and magic are the same thing.

I think the idea is that a magical fireball isn't literally a conjured ball of fire, it's a lump of magical energy that mimics some (but not all) of the properties of fire. You don't see people needing to stop, drop, and roll after being hit with Fire2.

(Though if you DID see that as necessary in an FMV environment I'd say fair enough -- magic isn't generally defined well enough to be able to say one way or the other.)
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Well, in FF9 Vivi casts a fire spell, hits Garnet, and her cloak catches on fire so she has to throw it off.

To use an example, doesn't Vivi set Garnet's hood on fire with his magic at the start of FF9? I'm sure there's more examples but that's just the first one that came to mind.
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Magic is generally resisted by willpower first and foremost, and in the absence of that, with gear specifically made to ward against magic. Stuff like bulky ass armor tends to do squat vs magic, while robes are generally the go to there.

Most laser type stuff tends to do physical damage in role playing games unless it has a reason to be magic based (which does come up pretty often, since magic based tech is a common thing)
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cloak needs more willpower obv

yeah I got nothing
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

BTW, just doing some quick vote record checks on how me and Alany usually vote...

Week 1: Both voted for scare
Week 2: Nothing
Week 3: Nothing
Week 4: Alany votes Rocket (LU BU SOLOS), Kanzaris votes Gravy (RAIDEN SOLOS); Alany votes Johnbobb (Kirbcher SOLOS), Kanzaris votes Eaed (Fetch outlasts and overcomes); Both vote for Bass vs Corrik
Week 5: Both vote for Boko vs. Scare; Both vote for Eddv vs. Skyridge
Week 6: Both vote for Kamek vs Tiro
Week 7: Nothing
Week 8: Both vote for Mewtwo vs Chris
Week 9: Both vote for Jeezy vs Scare (Weltall in a panic match); Both vote for Johnbobb vs Tom (Potemkin vs Megaman)
Week 10: Both vote for Scare vs. Jeezy (Raziel vs Nepyuffie)
Week 11: Both vote for Tirofog vs. Eddv

If you discount matches where only one of us voted, that's a 2/12 divergence rate, or 16.67%. Divergence between me and other voters I'd say usually vote like me (such as drakeryn) was around 25%. Does a 9% difference warrant a vote ban? Is it significant? You tell me.

EDIT: Forgot the Grigori vs Turok match (last one of the Chris/Mewtwo series, I didn't catch it at first glance because I didn't search 'Chess'). That brings the numbers up to 3/13, or 23% divergence rate. Should I start banning everyone below a certain threshold of vote divergence with me? If so, which?

How about you just stop acting like Alany isnt your alt you made to win mercs.

XD
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Drakeryn posted...

trdl23 posted...

Even though I've used the argument myself, in a FMV scenario, it's kind of hard for me to understand the difference between magical and non-magical damage. What is it about being a magical fire/lightning attack that means it can fry through enemies that wouldn't be fazed by non-magical fire/lightning? Unless it being magical just means "more potent," but in that case tech and magic are the same thing.

I think the idea is that a magical fireball isn't literally a conjured ball of fire, it's a lump of magical energy that mimics some (but not all) of the properties of fire. You don't see people needing to stop, drop, and roll after being hit with Fire2.

(Though if you DID see that as necessary in an FMV environment I'd say fair enough -- magic isn't generally defined well enough to be able to say one way or the other.)

There's basically two conceptions of magic, IMO:

-Magic as force: Magic spells are just pure, well, magic (read this as energy if you must) with a flavoring of whatever element is used while casting, NOT actual fire/lightning/ice/whatever. Magic in this setup is ephemeral and brief, and mostly defined and denied by willpower. This is what in D&D terms would be 'evocation' magic, if it helps to visualize it any.

-Magic as creation: Magic spells create something real and physical and then manipulate it. This kind of magic tends to have more permanence - summons generally are 'creation' type spells, for this reason, because they stick around and fight, even if they might eventually fade away, and this kind of spell would probably check against physical resistances, not 'MDEF'. In D&D terms this would be 'conjuration' magic.

I think it's fair to say some spells are forceful while others are creative. These are generally the two major paradigms you see, really.
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How about you just stop acting like Alany isnt your alt you made to win mercs.

XD

Made an alt to win mercs and didn't even need it in the end? Hey, I'll take it! I'm all up for getting more cred.

(Also, the idea that a Lady Ashe alt made an alt of its own amuses me greatly)
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I think a good way to think of MDEF is like... a multiplier to the potency of whatever is being emulated. Like, you use a fire spell against someone with no willpower, they experience something way more intense than just getting hit with a ball of fire, but the ball of fire is the baseline.

Could you make a fire so hot even God couldn't touch it? Maybe if he had 0 MDEF you could.
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ScareChan posted...

Chillglad posted...

ScareChan posted...

who are you @Chillglad

I'm not sure how you mean. I'm not an alt (well, I technically am, but haven't logged in on my original account in years and have used this one more than I ever used that one, anyway), if that's what you're asking.

I saw you are an established account but I dont recall you voting elsewhere but you seemed pretty versed, so just curious who you were as you didnt seem familiar

Ah, I see. I have been lurking in these threads on and off for a while now, and I've voted a few times before, though never provided supporting arguments for my votes like I've tried to do in this thread.

Thinking I'll start getting more into this. Is there a resource where I can learn more about the overall game structure? Everything I already know was picked up purely from contextual clues, so my knowledge beyond the context of an individual match-up is somewhat lacking, to be quite honest.
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Yeah we have a glossary and rule set, we were a bit altered for this edition but this should fill you in

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/90630290/FrontPage

We're currently in the finals of draft mercs though, so only 2 matches a week coming up for the next 2 or 3 weeks and its done
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Also here are links to the teams for the current mercs game:

http://mercs2015.pbworks.com/w/page/117865062/Draft%20Game%20Reference%20Page
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We are, however, gonna do some brainstorming on what should be done for the next iteration once that's over, so please do stick around - having a new perspective around to ask questions that other people might not even realize should be asked is super valuable, plus it's a great time to get to talk with everyone before another game begins (which won't be happening for a while to be fair, because this one gave us lots of material for things to improve on).
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

How about you just stop acting like Alany isnt your alt you made to win mercs.

XD

Made an alt to win mercs and didn't even need it in the end? Hey, I'll take it! I'm all up for getting more cred.

(Also, the idea that a Lady Ashe alt made an alt of its own amuses me greatly)

Yeah but that alt positioned you to not need the votes down the road!

Hell, your alt only crash and burned like 3 teams for you... including one top team at the time? Lol

PS: Who remembers when Kanz tried to welch an agreement with Ganon or whoever and was talking via Alany the whole time. And then when everyone agreed to gang up on Kanz for his welch then all the sudden Kanz showed up last second! Lol
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I kinda want to headcanon this because it's really slick
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If we really want to get dark, it was Kanz who set up the real life attack that led to my friend's death that started my spiral into madness.

Kanz has a Death Note.
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kanz made the alt that tried to buy old man


and also threatened corrik on facebook
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