Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks 225 User-Nominated Super-Villains: Part II

(+) Yeah! (+)

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

What did you think of Brainiac's expanded role in Convergence? Even though it was kind of made obsolete by Rebirth, I thought it was pretty neat. I guess not really Convergence itself, but Future's End.

Also tag

I just find him generic in that role.
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Has Goku been ranked yet? Was he nominated if not.
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lol
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Classic MWC at his legit best.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Classic MWC at his legit best.

I mean, he has now led directly to the destruction of 1 Omni verse, and 57% of another one.
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EmDubyaSee posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Classic MWC at his legit best.

I mean, he has now led directly to the destruction of 1 Omni verse, and 57% of another one.

He's pretty much on the Anti-Monitor's level of destruction at this point!
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scarletspeed7 posted...

EmDubyaSee posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Classic MWC at his legit best.

I mean, he has now led directly to the destruction of 1 Omni verse, and 57% of another one.

He's pretty much on the Anti-Monitor's level of destruction at this point!

He's quite evil is my point.
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Well he's always fighting Superman on Board 8 so I just assumed he was.
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#117 - Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw) Nominated by: Jesse
First Appearance: Adventures of Superman #466 (May 1990)
Created by: Dan Jurgens

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 6/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

I'm not sure who decided that it would be a good idea to merge Superman (awesome) with Cyborg (awful), but the result is about what you would expect. It's a Man of Literal Steel, fighting for Truth, Rust and the Android Way.

Hank's a sad, depressing character. He spent the better part of a decade just wanting to die in the comics, and this somehow brought him into conflict with the Green Lantern Corps (Pro-lifers? You be the judge). Before that, he was constantly goofing around with Superman and making a mockery of the classic spitcurl (quite frankly, it does NOT go with skeletal faces). The issues with Cyborg Superman is that he was about one step away from making Metallo completely obsolete, so it's a good thing that Geoff Johns decided to expand Hank's worldview and send him packing into Sectors outside of 2814. I don't think it was particularly intentional, but Superman as a franchise has a habit of reiterating the same concepts over and over again. Add to that the fact that Hank's origin is stolen straight from the Fantastic Four (a story that strangely has been stolen in a couple other DC franchises), and you gotta wonder just how original this guy really is.

I generally enjoy Hank outside of the Superman franchise, but really not in it. He was the most odd-man-out in the Reign of the Superman (his major debut arc), and after that point he seemed superfluous. Here's hoping that other writers can continue to utilize him in a variety of other franchises and continue to breathe life into the guy.
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#116 - Clayface (Basil Karlo) Nominated by: Eddv
First Appearance: Detective Comics #40 (Jun. 1940)
Created by: Bill Finger and Bob Kane

Fundamentals: 8/10
Track Record: 5/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

I gave Ed the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wanted me to rank the original pile of shit and not the subsequent piles of shit that debuted later.

Clayface is a special kind of villain that feels at home in any era or franchise. I could just as easily see Clayface starring in a late 19th century dime novel as I could see him as the new face of terror in a slasher film. The possibilities for a man who can be any man, an actor who can assume his roles so perfectly that it is impossible to tell the doppelganger from the real thing are endless. I truly think there are great, great potential stories to tell with Clayface.

But as was the case with Ultra-Humanite, we're not focused on the right kind of storytelling with the guy. The excitement with Clayface is the search. He can be anyone and anywhere, so it takes a keen mind and some detective work to find him. However, writers and artists are more interested in the big battles, watching Batman swim around in a typhoon of diarrhea while a face pokes out from the poop and makes vague Vaudevillian threats. That's not as much fun as the chase itself. Sometimes it's not the destination, it's the journey. However, it's hard to see that as a writer. You want to create payoff, to keep a reader glued to the page so they pick up the next issue. The answer to the question of audience retention isn't to splash page mud, but to let the mud set. Let Clayface be anybody, lead Batman on a mystery investigation, and let the payoff be huge.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
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I know you're rankings are based on the comics, but his role in the Arkham games was fantastic
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So, can I post nominate Goku?


Like a special entry, or a NA, just a write
Up?
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Clayface has never reached anywhere near his full potential. Despite his powers and uniqueness he's one of the more boring Batman rogues for sure.
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BetrayedTangy posted...

I know you're rankings are based on the comics, but his role in the Arkham games was fantastic

I actually wasn't a huge fan of there. He could have done so much more before the boss fight.
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EmDubyaSee posted...

So, can I post nominate Goku?


Like a special entry, or a NA, just a write
Up?

I could do a write-up at the end, sure.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

EmDubyaSee posted...

So, can I post nominate Goku?


Like a special entry, or a NA, just a write
Up?

I could do a write-up at the end, sure.

Thx. Appreciate it.

By the way, Jesus... this is a monumental undertaking you are doing here. Kudos to you
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scarletspeed7 posted...

#117 - Ultra-Humanite

I like the arc with him in Power Girl vol 2
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What are your thoughts on Clayface in the current Detective Comics run?
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davidponte posted...

What are your thoughts on Clayface in the current Detective Comics run?

Closer to what I would like, but not noirish enough.
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Why, whats different about him in the current run?
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I logged onto my mobile account to just catch up. To comment on some that I know...

Ares is odd. I slightly liked him from MAA but even there he looked like he has some short end of a stick and is downgraded in each of his appearances by someone else. Guess that was an accurate representation, ahaha~.

Next... Braniac. I cracked up when I read that first sentence and I completely understand this whole "alien level intelligence" crap. (also cracked up at your Gorilla City reference to me)

Actually forget if I had a third. There's a couple others I know but none I have comments on.
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I'm glad someone got the reference in the first sentence.
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#115 - Mongul Nominated by: Anagram
First Appearance: Showcase '95 #8 (Sep. 1995)
Created by: Peter Tomasi and Scot Eaton

Fundamentals: 5/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

Which Mongul did you nominate, Anagram? Did you nominate the original star of the classic "For the Man Who Has Everything?" Or did you nominate his son, the much more recognizable and longer-running villain who has featured in Geoff Johns' Green Lantern run? I'm going with the latter.

I'm a fan of legacy done right. Mongul Jr. and Mongal were introduced in such a way that their existence and transition into the role of their father was organic. It was only natural that we would see Mongul Jr. assume the role of the original, and despite very little hay being made of the legacy Mongul, these sorts of mantles being passed down from character to character are what enrich the history of DC in comparison to Marvel. Marvel's concept of legacy is mainly built around fulfilling needs or making waves through publicity. DC has been playing with the legacy role for over 60 years, and it's been successful since the original Flash and his Silver Age counterpart first met back in the 60s.

As for Mongul the Second himself, I like the character, but I don't particularly love him. Conceptually similar to a Darkseid or a Thanos, Mongul is the low-rent version of the more recognizable alien overlords. Still, he plays a good game, manipulates well, and consistently gets his hands on terrifying sources of power. He's a solid villain. He fits well into most high-powered franchises, and I really can't complain otherwise.
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I actually didn't know he had a son. I meant the one who inspired the DCAU version, which I guess is the original. Still enjoyed the write-up, though!
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Ah, sorry. I would have had slightly more to say about him.
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It's my fault for not knowing there were two!
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I didn't say it was???
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I didn't say it was???

I know, I'm the one saying it is.
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#114 - Brother Blood (Sebastian Blood the VIII or IX or Who The Fuck Knows They Might All Be the Same Person) Nominated by: Wickle
First Appearance: New Teen Titans #21 (Apr. 1982)
Created by: Marv Wolfman and George Perez

Fundamentals: 6/10
Track Record: 6/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

Any devilish rating is unintentional.

Brother Blood has been a longtime villain for the Titans, although I can't say I've ever much cared for the Titans until after their era at the top of the sales charts ended. For those of you who don't know, DC spent the majority of its life cycle getting its ass kicked by Marvel in the sales department. In the 80s, most of Marvel's line outsold most of DC's line. The exceptions were at the top of the list, as right behind the ludicrously high-selling X-Men came the (New) Teen Titans and the Legion of Super-Heroes. Yes, 80s comic readers loved their young adult teams. Of course, DC would put out Crisis on Infinite Earths and start to change that pattern (now DC and Marvel are pretty much on equal footing with DC generally getting the edge). Anyways, Marv Wolfman is definitely one of the major reasons why the Titans found such sales success; he rebranded them, aged them, created new characters and breathed life into their utterly pathetic villain stable. Of note came Deathstroke, Trigon and Brother Blood.

Now, having read all of these comics decades after they were released, I find that most of the major stories have not aged well. This includes Brother Blood's major forays into villainy against a bunch of CW rejects. Blood had the name but his look in the 80s was pretty hilariously bad. However, Wolfman did weave a sufficiently creepy backstory revolving around the Cult of Blood. Great name, right?

Where I found interest in Blood was when his son took over in Geoff Johns' Titans run 20 years later. Of course, since then, it's been hinted that Blood is reincarnated in the body of his child each time the child kills the father. Or in the ceremony afterwards. It's very vague. Hell, he might inhabit two bodies at the same time. Regardless, this sort of magical/paranormal muddiness always makes things more interesting. Not knowing or understanding the truth behind a character makes them more difficult to defeat. After all, you can't call a guy if you can't get their number. Blood's update included a change in cringey dialogue that attempted to be a little Shakespearean and a little Victorian which also helped immensely.

Anyways, Brother Blood. A character that has aged well.
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Nominated him to see what you could say, all I could fully remember with him was just how he like appeared from a pool of blood. Hell, it was a really interesting shift to go from all I knew about Titans was a cartoon and you show me Geoff Johns' Titans after. So I went from kiddy things to occult rituals and Deathstroke crippling a kid with a shotgun.

Seems he's had his bad, but has only improved since all writers knew what they were doing with him, but made it hard to convey completely just... what he can do. Just occult things.
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#113 - Talon (Lincoln March) Nominated by: Snake
First Appearance: Batman #1 (Nov. 2011)
Created by: Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo

Fundamentals: 6/10
Track Record: 6/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10


The devil scores another character.

The Court of Owls was Scott Snyder's introductory foray into the New52, and five to six years later, I would call it a success. Lincoln March wasn't a particularly innovative concept; after all, Gates of Gotham had used a similar conceit to great success. Still, a fellow socialite along the lines of Bruce Wayne conspiring with others to seize some of that yummy Gotham underworld power is always a welcome plotline. Snyder in particular enjoys to create backstory while propelling the story forward in the present, and the result is learning origins without having to watch actual origins stories play out. This is of immense value to readers who have spent years hashing and rehashing the same tired beginnings over and over again.

Lincoln as Talon was strongly, written and when he had served his purpose, they shelved him for a while. Later, of course, Lincoln has become the primary representative of the Owls and their ilk, tangling with Nightwing recently before being shelved again. But Lincoln is a functionally sound character who hasn't worn out his welcome with oversaturation, so we're likely to see him again.
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#112 - Todd Ingram Nominated by: Raka
First Appearance: Scott Pilgrim & the Infinite Sadness (Nov. 2006)
Created by: Bryan Lee O'Malley

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 5/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

Probably my second favorite of the Evil Exes, Todd is a fantastic character. Much like everyone in Scott Pilgrim, he skewers an aspect of the hipster culture that so irritates me. Aside from that, there's not a hell of a lot to say. The Evil Exes aren't exactly the deepest characters. They are definitely style over substance once you clear the jaded cynicism of postmodern hipster mentality from your lenses. A lot of comedic characters are like that. This one just entertained me and even made me laugh, so it gets that extra bump. Well-designed, virtually no track record aside from one story.

One thing I will say about Todd, and this is probably not unintentional, is that Todd is the Ex that most reminds me of Scott. After all, he's the bassist in a three person band that dated Ramona Flowers. He also has a bit of the Scott head and hair. The big difference? He's vegan. He's just better.

Next!
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#111 - Deathstorm Nominated by: PS2_4Life
First Appearance: Brightest Day #7 (Oct. 2010)
Created by: Geoff Johns and Ivan Reis

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 5/10
Scarlet Factor: 6/10

Firestorm is a fantastic, wholly underrated character. An undead Firestorm that can lock living people inside his brain while preparing to destroy the entire universe is just an added bonus.

Firestorm, the Matrix that is, consistently presents unusual new variations on an old theme thanks to the early work of John Ostrander. Anyone can become a Firestorm if they're in the right place at the right time (and there's some nuclear-based atomic reactor shenanigans involved), so from time to time, we have had Firestorms that are essentially at odds with one another. However, we never really got the evil doppelganger of Firestorm that we needed. And once you reach a certain level of fame (Justice League-tier), you really need that doppelganger. It's an important part of the exploration of a hero; what separates the ideal from the nightmarish worst case scenario. For each hero, it's different. While Deathstorm is a character that certainly hasn't been fully explored, he does have a distinctive personality (Ronnie Raymond mixed with early Wally West and a little Guy Gardner), and his design is phenomenal.

I couldn't fault other people for being confused on this ranking, but I just see a lot of potential here. Despite getting the short end of the stick thanks to the 2011 reboot, Deathstorm is a character with a lot of potential that I would love to see explored. And no, not in the way that Flash introduced him and kind of threw him away without much fanfare.
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#110 - Mad Hatter (Jervis Tetch) Nominated by: bullhogderbaxer
First Appearance: Batman #49 (Oct. 1948)
Created by: Bill Finger and Lew Schwartz

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 8/10
Scarlet Factor: 4/10

No we're starting to get into the high-scoring characters. The downside on this one, of course, is that I have very little to say of note about Jervis. The Hatter functions primarily as a way to bring the absurdity of other forms of literature into Batman. Bruce has never dealt well with the topsy-turvy characters. He doesn't like happiness, cuddly animals, or things that are fun. And for the most part, Mad Hatter lives in that sort of bailiwick. Hatter's MO is to play Alice in Wonderland as if it was real, and Bruce Wayne's MO is to punch people, growl and generally not enjoy himself. While Jervis doesn't reach the spectacular heights of irritation that the Riddler gets when pressing Bat-buttons, he still is very much an antitheisis of Batman.

Mad Hatter also plays with hypnosis coloring the perception of reality, and I generally enjoy stories that focus on Hatter's mind-altering antics. When a character's own view of the world is unreliable, it makes the obstacles in front of them so much more challenging to overcome. That's why Count Vertigo is such a great, simple villain. Too bad no one nominated him.

Hatter has been quite versatile throughout the Batman mythos. A simple antagonist at his core, Hatter fundamentally is about the mind and how untrustworthy it is. And in a series called Detective Comics, being unable to rely on the brain can be quite devastating.
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Scarlet, do you have any favorite Vertigo stories?

#109 - The Joker Nominated by: Great_Paul
First Appearance: Batman #1 (Apr. 1940)
Created by: Bill Finger, Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson

Fundamentals: 10/10
Track Record: 5/10
Scarlet Factor: 4/10

Hoo boy. Here we go.

I've been quite outspoken about my reasons for disliking the Joker. For the most part, whenever I see a great number of people extolling the virtues for something, I always find myself giving pause and trying to determine if that attitude of unmitigated praise is warranted. Granted, the vast majority of people who are fans of the Joker do not read comics, so this whole write-up isn't directed at those people. But to those fans of the Joker in comics, I have to question how they rectify the constantly changing behaviors of the Joker, the wild variation on motivations and personality, and the constant deluge of Joker appearances without merit or value.

I will admit that the fundamentals are all there. On paper, the Joker is a well-designed character with endless amounts of depth. But the problem with the Joker in comics is that too many writers like to present the character as "chaos" or "crazy". First of all, "crazy" is not a personality. "Crazy" is a word you use when you've been backed into a corner and you can't explain why you want a character to do what you want them to do. "Crazy" is, for me, the definition of bad writing. No character is "crazy". Insanity is just a demonstration of alternative thinking. Most crazy people are rational. They believe they are propelled by sensical motivation that is backed up by objectivity. The Joker should be the same way. This also destroys the notion of "chaos". "He's a force of chaos, and Batman is a force of order."

Let's look at how asinine that statement is.

First of all, I hear that all the time. This is a statement built on the premise that Joker is a bad guy and Batman is a good guy. You'll see no argument from me; the Joker is a bad guy. He's one of the worst guys. He's a murderer and a psychopath, which is why the guy should never in any circumstance work with other villains and certainly not heroes. I'll grant him Harley, and I'll grant brief tentative alliances so long as they always fall apart. The Joker is not a force for chaos, though. Sure, he may want you to believe that, but that is bullshit. The Joker is a needy, lonely, sad individual; no one loves him except someone who he really doesn't want to reciprocate to. Why? Because Joker wants the adoration of others. And if he can't get it, he'll make them fear him. He doesn't want what he has; he wants what he doesn't have. The Joker is a pathetic worm cloaked in a guise that makes him appear careless and whimsical. That's his coping mechanism. The Joker is not chaos. He does not "just do stuff." Everything he's done since day one is in an attempt to garner the attentions of one Dark Knight.

At the same time, Batman isn't a force of order. No vigilante is. Batman is a force for chaos just as much as Joker. Batman's definition of order is Batman calling the shots. Batman's definition of order isn't due process except when it's convenient. It's convenient to leave a tied up supervillain on the GCPD's doorstep because then he doesn't have to solve the problem. The Joker and Batman aren't even close to eternal rivals, and yet it's the Joker every month, wasting the potential development time for another villain. Batman's true archenemies are yet to appear on this list, but the Joker is a depressingly codependent and needy little loser. Stop pretending he's not.
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Kenshin171 posted...

Scarlet, do you have any favorite Vertigo stories?

Count or DC Imprint? I have both.

Count Vertigo at his best is Suicide Squad by John Ostrander. But quite honestly, Count Vertigo is a favorite villain because he develops in scant panels all over the place. He doesn't get a lot of time to shine as a main character but he's the single best secondary villain in the business.
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#108 - Red Skull (Johann Schmidt) Nominated by: Great_Paul
First Appearance: Captain America Comics #7 (Oct. 1941)
Created by: Joe Simon, Jack Kirby and Frank Herron

Fundamentals: 6/10
Track Record: 8/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

The problem with Nazis is their prevalency in comics. We've got the Nazis and the Nazi-lites (HYDRA), and the Not-Zis (Vandal Savage) and everything in between. Red Skull simply has the unfortunate distinction of being the Nazi-est among Nazis. But he wasn't even the first major Nazi villain comics; that distinction goes to Captain Nazi. I have a hard time differentiating Skull from a standard Hitler stand-in. Personally, Baron Von Strucker is my preferable Nazi fascist secret empire mastermind du jour from Marvel. For me, Skull is a B+ player.

Captain America, admittedly, is a franchise where what I want is directly counterintuitive to what the writer's want. My favorite Captain America stories allegorically tackle the issues of the real world in a way only Captain America can - nowadays, the schools of thinking lack the emotional maturity to step back and consider alternative viewpoints, so Captain America has lost the ability to be an insightful series. That's why we've made him a Nazi. Because Nazis are bad. Because punching Nazis is good. There is no reasoning behind the tales of the Cap anymore. Remember when a third party tried to run him for President? That was a phenomenally good story; it explored not only Captain America but also the desire in America at that time for an ideal to shatter the perceptions of the disillusioned. Look at the ORIGINAL Secret Empire, a phenomenal tale about Captain America confronting what was essentially Richard Nixon.

Red Skull is only good when someone can make him matter in the worldview of Captain America. Instead, too often Red Skull plays like a standard supervillain to Captain America's standard superhero. The problem is that, left to their own devices, both characters are so staid and outdated that they come as across as retro and uninteresting. You have to provide new data to the brain's of readers. You have to present these two ancient curmudgeons in a new and innovative way. Sadly, that has become more and more difficult for the Red Skull, to the point that he's nothing more than a plot point and an attempt at a sales draw. While their have been attempts to make him a corporate executive and a more modern militant mastermind, it always smacks of "Nazi". And that might be the problem.
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My personal favorite Joker question is why in Batman vs Superman, Batman will gun down lex luthor's goons but apparently has left the Joker and Killer Croc alive.
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I think that's an unfair question. We know a Robin has died. We don't know when. We know Killer Croc is in prison. We don't know when he got there or what he's actually done to warrant being there on this particular outing.

Similarly, the Joker might just have been successful at getting away. This isn't a question that breaks the movie.
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#107 - Zoe Nominated by: Eddv
First Appearance: Morning Glories #1 (Aug. 2010)
Created by: Joe Eisma and Nick Spencer

Fundamentals: 6/10
Track Record: 8/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

Morning Glories is sort of like a mix of Gotham Academy and Riverdale. It's hard to explain. Anyways, it's a teen drama of Biblical proportion. I don't have a lot to say about; honestly, when it comes to the series, spoilers really hurt it. It's a good title. Anways, Zoe is a pitch-perfect cheerleading high school bitch who gets involved with the standard high school bullying: harrassment, gossip, murder. Stuff every teenage girl delves into at some point. Anyways, good read it. It's good stuff.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I think that's an unfair question. We know a Robin has died. We don't know when. We know Killer Croc is in prison. We don't know when he got there or what he's actually done to warrant being there on this particular outing.

Similarly, the Joker might just have been successful at getting away. This isn't a question that breaks the movie.

It doesn't break the movie (other things do), but unless Joker has just never been caught, I can't see a killer Batman not killing him. Hell, why not also kill Harley? We know he's caught her and that she's an accomplice for many Joker-related murders.
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Again, has Batman always killed?
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Again, has Batman always killed?

I suppose we don't technically know that, but it seems unlikely that he'd choose this of all nights to start killing Luthor's goons. The only explanation that works is that he caught Harley pre-"I'm going to kill people" and just hasn't caught the Joker since, which I get is what you're saying but the movies don't really hint at that.
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I've been on both sides of the Joker equation. Before I started reading comics, I couldn't get enough of him and thought he was easily the best of Batman's villains, but after having him shoved into every story, game, and movie, I've grown incredibly tired of him, especially since it feels like it's the same story every time.

Comics has also shown me what the movies haven't and that is that there are so many better stories to tell with every other Batman character.

I love the Arkham games, but by the time Arkham Knight came around, I was so tired of dealing with the Joker. The best parts of that game were the moments when you interacted with some of the other villains.
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I actually thought Arkham Knight was a great usage of Joker. It was a toned-down Batman-friendly version of the Joker that just provided much needed comic relief. That said, I was so tired of the Joker by Arkham Origins that I was ready to quit the game the moment he showed up.
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#106 - Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) Nominated by: MarquessLaus
First Appearance: X-Men #4 (Mar. 1964)
Created by: Stan Lee and Jack Kirby

Fundamentals: 7/10
Track Record: 7/10
Scarlet Factor: 5/10

My personal feelings about Mastermind waver. On the one hand, he is the man who had a direct and corrupting influence of Jean Grey, leading to the Dark Phoenix Saga (aka the most overrated story in comics history). At the same time, his machinations led to Jean Grey being dead for a while. So I guess the bigger question is, "Why am I letting such a wonderful person be ranked on a villain list?"

All joking aside, Mastermind fits well into an aspect of comics I enjoy - the exploration of unreliable senses. When minds are manipulated, stories can take wholly unexpected turns. And (aside from Nick Spencer's Captain America), it usually benefits the characters and franchises involved. Forcing people to face their closest friends as enemies or trapping people within their greatest fears... these are the types of scenarios that promote introspection, change and development. Of course, Mastermind is saddled with the X-Men as his opponents, so unfortunately there's not a lot of development to be had.

When Mastermind isn't battle two-dimensional cardboard cutouts, he seems to have a very laidback personality. Often shown smoking while deep in thought, I've always had this sneaking suspicion that Mastermind is a burgeoning artiste, with designs upon a life outside of the criminal underworld. I'd like to see him be a little more larcenous and a little less super-villainous. I think there's a lot of potential there.
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I just realized I should have nominated the guy from Kingdom Come who kills Joker, damn.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

But to those fans of the Joker in comics, I have to question how they rectify the constantly changing behaviors of the Joker, the wild variation on motivations and personality, and the constant deluge of Joker appearances without merit or value.

I actually like the first two parts of the character. Joker having so many interpretations is what's interesting about the character to me. He's different things to different writers, and while most of them are mediocre and he suffers from overexposure, there's a lot of really good takes on the character that I value much more.

Best example is Grant Morrison's run. In his (admittedly awful) novella issue he wrote an in-universe explanation to justify the meta reasons that Joker changes all the time. And he went so far as to write 4 or 5 different versions of the Joker in his own story arc! That's great, and probably the best usage of the character, period.
Scott Snyder played around with this idea too, but didn't really execute it well. So, from a meta standpoint, when Batman refers to the Joker as "chaotic and unpredictable," to me that refers to how he changes wildly every few years. Maybe that's a bit of a copout, but I think Joker is a great example of a villain that embodies the serial nature of comic books.

Of course, that ALSO means he tends to embody the bad aspects of comics too, like mediocre writing, cash grabs, and extreme overexposure at the cost of shunting aside other characters. But I think it's worth it for when he gets to shine.
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I completely disagree. The great runs are far outweighed by the bad ones, the nonsensical ones, the Frank Miller ones, the constant desire to provide "THE DEFINITIVE TAKE."

Joker is immortal now. Does that even make sense for the character? No. Not at all. But now we have an answer for how he always comes back! Except we didn't need one. These constant tinkerings have made the good meaningless.
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