Board 8 > Thirty years of video games -- a transience retrospective.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I enjoyed it as a kid despite knowing it was bad game
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Ys I and II were originally released on some weird Japanese computer in 1987 and 1988 and then got like a hundred ports and remakes. The ones released in the west were Ys I on the Master System in 1988 (there is no Ys II for Master System), Ys Book I & II on Turbo CD in 1990 (probably the most influential version on western gamers but since it was on Turbo CD there were pretty hard limits to how popular it could be; it's available on Virtual Console), and the similar-to-each-other-but-not-identical modern remakes of Ys I & II on PC, PSP, and DS in the 2010s (the PC version is probably best of the modern ones, you can get it on Steam).

Ys III: Wanderers from Ys was originally released on some weird Japanese computer in 1989 and then got console versions that got released in the west on SNES, Genesis, and Turbo CD in 1991. All of them have some issues and the game is kind of divisive in general but the SNES version is probably the worst of the three. Ys: The Oath in Felghana is a remake that made some pretty extreme changes but is in general much better than any version of Wanderers from Ys; it's available on Steam and PSP.

Ys IV: Mask of the Sun on SNES and Ys IV: The Dawn of Ys on Turbo CD (both in 1993) are totally different games made by different developers (neither of which was the original developer of the first three games; they were having some financial problems at the time or something) that share soundtracks and are built from the same basic character/plot/setting/premise outline but their different developers went in different directions from there. Neither came out in the West but both have translation patches now and The Dawn of Ys is much better. The Vita game Ys: Memories of Celceta isn't a remake of either by my understanding but is a new game made by the original developer, who has of course declared that it is the canonical version of Ys IV; it got a western release.

Ys V came out on SNES in 1995. No western release, but there is a translation patch.

And then the series went dead for like 8 years until Ys VI (aside from continued rehashes of Ys I and II) and generally got consistent western releases from that point on.
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UItimaterializer posted...

Tran, can you read my Zelda 1 review and give me a quick thought? I wrote it in hopes guys like us would appreciate it.

Zelda 1 is probably the best game ever made.

Great review and I agree with pretty much all of it. How old are you, btw?
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Idk if Zelda 1 is my favorite game of all time, but its definately still the best zelda and a top 5 single player game for myself.

The freedom and discovery are nearly unmatched
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I think I rented TMNT1 once as a kid, sucked horribly at it, rented TMNT2 next time and never looked back.
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AxemRedRanger posted...

Ys I and II were originally released on some weird Japanese computer in 1987 and 1988 and then got like a hundred ports and remakes. The ones released in the west were Ys I on the Master System in 1988 (there is no Ys II for Master System), Ys Book I & II on Turbo CD in 1990 (probably the most influential version on western gamers but since it was on Turbo CD there were pretty hard limits to how popular it could be; it's available on Virtual Console), and the similar-to-each-other-but-not-identical modern remakes of Ys I & II on PC, PSP, and DS in the 2010s (the PC version is probably best of the modern ones, you can get it on Steam).

Ys III: Wanderers from Ys was originally released on some weird Japanese computer in 1989 and then got console versions that got released in the west on SNES, Genesis, and Turbo CD in 1991. All of them have some issues and the game is kind of divisive in general but the SNES version is probably the worst of the three. Ys: The Oath in Felghana is a remake that made some pretty extreme changes but is in general much better than any version of Wanderers from Ys; it's available on Steam and PSP.

Ys IV: Mask of the Sun on SNES and Ys IV: The Dawn of Ys on Turbo CD (both in 1993) are totally different games made by different developers (neither of which was the original developer of the first three games; they were having some financial problems at the time or something) that share soundtracks and are built from the same basic character/plot/setting/premise outline but their different developers went in different directions from there. Neither came out in the West but both have translation patches now and The Dawn of Ys is much better. The Vita game Ys: Memories of Celceta isn't a remake of either by my understanding but is a new game made by the original developer, who has of course declared that it is the canonical version of Ys IV; it got a western release.

Ys V came out on SNES in 1995. No western release, but there is a translation patch.

And then the series went dead for like 8 years until Ys VI (aside from continued rehashes of Ys I and II) and generally got consistent western releases from that point on.

I go back and forth whether Dawn of Ys or Ys Seven is my favorite. Ys V is definitely the worst one. I still need to play memories of celceta though.

Currently have the $100 limited edition of Ys VIII pre-ordered
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neonreaper posted...

SD - You'd have to spend the first 6 months playing old arcade and Intellivision games to cleanse your palate. Encounters and map design have come a super duper long way since Zelda 1 that you'd probably be bored playing it quickly - the game wouldn't offer *you* anything beyond the first dungeon. Like, if I said for you to write down every clue an old person tells you and try to apply it once you've run out of obvious dungeons, you'd probably think that's just awful.

Well, that's why I'd want time to stop! With the clock ticking, I'm more concerned about efficiency. And the biggest thing about exploring is that it seems inefficient when I can just look up the answer.

That amount of time would be enough to get accustomed to it. Would probably take a pen and pencil, but the rules are basically no guides whatsoever, but human contact is allowed.

Alas, this train of thought probably doesn't play out in a real hypothetical. You're right, I'd probably just get annoyed after a while!

EndOfDiscOne posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

is it really derided today?

It helped put AVGN on the map

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjUz8IT0CYg

Makes sense I don't know about it, then - never really gotten into the video game Youtube stuff, other than to listen to vg music.
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1990
https://i.imgur.com/PaW8FZi.jpg

Notable Games:

Bonk's Adventure
Castlevania 3: Dracula's Curse
Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers
Commander Keen
Crystalis
Double Dragon 2
Dr. Mario
Dragon Warrior 2
Final Fantasy
Final Fantasy Legend
M.U.L.E. (NES)
Maniac Mansion (NES)
Mega Man 3
Minesweeper
Ninja Gaiden 2
Phantasy Star 3
River City Ransom
Secret of Monkey Island
Star Tropics
Strider (GEN)
Super C
Super Mario Bros. 3
Ys 1 & 2

transience's take:

1. Final Fantasy
2. Crystalis
3. Mega Man 3
4. Double Dragon 2
5. Castlevania 3: Dracula's Curse

Overall: 11th

Media Picks:

Nintendo Power: Super Mario Bros. 3
EGM: Strider (GEN)

The NES stepped up its game in 1990. I'm not sure how to describe it, but NES games just felt better. It felt like developers were unlocking power that wasn't available in the early days of the NES. The worlds were bigger, the levels were more complex and the graphics were better. We had gone from a cute little 6 stage stroll in Castlevania to a sprawling castle with multiple paths, optional characters and passwords in Castlevania 3. Double Dragon was a straightforward game where you punch and kick while DD2 had the cyclone kick and the knee and platforming. 1990 is peak NES. The Turbografx 16 had its biggest game in Bonk and the Genesis had Strider and Shinobi, but those couldn't really compare to Nintendo.

The crown jewel, of course, was Mario. Super Mario Bros. 3 is probably the most hyped game of all time. It certainly was up to that point. The timing was perfect: everyone saw Mario 2 as a weird off brand kind of thing and they were anxious for the return of the king. Super Mario Land didn't cut it. Super Mario Bros. 3 was all that and more. They made a damn movie to advertise this game and oh man did it work.

I always wondered what took this game so long to get here. It came out in '88 in Japan. The localization would take, like, a day. This wasn't Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy. Why wait? Anyway, Mario 3 was the gold standard of video games for a full decade. It expanded on the Mario formula in the most natural way and added tons of variety. We went from a mushroom and a flower to a tail, a frog, a tanooki and a hammer brother. You could get clouds and anchors and hammers and p-wings. You could fly and play matching games and try to get three stars for bonus lives and oh man there's so much for an NES game. Mario 3 was triumphant and it was huuuuuuuge. It engulfed the entirety of 1990.

Mario 3 is real good - a truly flawless game - but it never captivated me. The game that captivated me in 1990 was Final Fantasy. Its game world was unparalelled in 1990, especially on console. There was probably a PC game like Ultima that could compare, but nothing as accessible and straightforward as Final Fantasy. The character progression felt great and innovative in a time where progression was pretty unheard of. Final Fantasy didn't break ground but it popularized a genre that was under the radar. I would probably put FF1 in my top 3 all-time in terms of hours played. It remains my favorite NES game today.
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The most impressive game hasn't been mentioned yet, though. Every system has that one game that feels impossible, like it's breaking the limits of what should be possible on the hardware. That game on the NES is Crystalis, an incredible action RPG that absolutely belonged on the SNES but through some magic ended up being playable on the NES. It was way ahead of its time, taking the best of Zelda and RPGs and slamming them together into a cohesive package. I love the heck out of Crystalis. I'd call it underrated but I think it's been hyped as the Zelda killer for so long that it's actually properly respected now. It just never had the pop of a Nintendo franchise.

1990 wasn't a breakthrough hardware year like 1989 was - it just had some damn good games. I haven't even mentioned gems like River City Ransom, Dr. Mario or Star Tropics on the NES. Mega Man 3 is an awesome sequel to Mega Man 2 - it didn't change the formula besides add a slide but it was still super fun. There were interesting ports of old games like M.U.L.E. or Maniac Mansion. Over on the PC, Secret of Monkey Island put LucasArts on the map and Commander Keen put id Software on the map. Even Minesweeper came out! 1990 is a great year for video games.
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more stacked of a year than i'd realized!
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I'm sad that SMB 3 didn't take your top spot. That game was pure magic, and it's still incredibly playable. I like Super Mario World a bit more, but that's saying something given how much I like SMB 3.

Final Fantasy was really good for its time, but it was grind-heavy and I can't imagine wanting to play it today. I remember one painful dungeon that required multiple visits to level up enough to maybe stand a chance against the boss monsters (I want to say it was a swamp dungeon, but I'm not certain).

Crystalis was really good. I played it on the NES and played the GBC remake. I was seriously distressed when it ended because I wanted more.

Super C let you steal the other player's lives in co-op, I think. Jackass friend was doing it to me without saying anything, and I started asking why I didn't have as many lives as I thought I did. (It turns out he was busy losing all of them.) I still liked the game.

I could go on, but I'm just going to agree that 1990 was really good.

Contra 1 lets you steal lives too!
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I didn't know that. If he was stealing lives there, then I probably didn't notice (what's a few lives out of 30?).

1990 Top SHINE 5
Ninja Gaiden 2 - First game I can remember actually saving allowance to buy. Changed how you present a story in video games.
Mega Man 3 - I didn't like it as much as 2 but it was still amazing
Super C - My brother and I played this game way more than regular Contra.
Super Mario Bros. 3 - Got this in my Easter Basket which was the raddest thing
Ys 1 & 2 - Putting this on here retroactively even though I didn't get into the series until much later
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oh I should probably go back and do the others

1987 Top SHINE 5
The Legend of Zelda - 8-bit Breath of the Wild. I used the map that came with the game religiously
Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! - I beat Mike Tyson eventually. Not in 1987 though probably not until 1990 or 1991.
Metroid - First time I beat the game was totally with Justin Bailey as I remember getting stuck somewhere in Norfair. Don't think I actually bothered to beat the game legitimately until it was included with Metroid Prime.
Castlevania - Best music
Mega Man - precursor of things to come

1988 Top SHINE 5
Zelda 2: Adventure of Link - I never got why people hated this game. At the time I thought it was like Mario 2 where every sequel was different. I precedence hadn't really been set yet.
Super Mario Bros. 2 - I never got why people hated this game. At the time I thought it was like Zelda 2 where every sequel was different. I precedence hadn't really been set yet.
Blades of Steel - You can't beat me at this game
RC Pro Am - I can't beat the computer once the yellow gets steroids
Super Dodge Ball - best game with the river city characters

1989 Top SHINE 5
Mega Man 2 - The game I can credit with getting me hardcore into video games. I was a filthy casual before then. (if you can call a 4 year old a casual)
Dragon Warrior - First time I saw an RPG. Played it at my cousins house first then got it shortly afterwards. Erdrick for life.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (arcade) - The one arcade game I will stop to play whenever I see it.
Shadowgate - Not so much the NES version but we had these on our elementary school DOS computers and I played it a lot. Eventually would get the GBC remake and Shadowgate 64
Phantasy Star 2 - Hard as hell but I still love it
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NES developers in 1990 literally were unlocking power that wasn't available in the early days of the NES, thanks to memory mapper chips. Some games did use them before this point, but 1990 is when the MMC3 starts getting used a lot, which -really- bumped up the capabilities of games. Stuff like SMB3's diagonal scrolling literally cannot be done on a base NES chip without mappers added in the cartridge. Even things that seem somewhat basic, like having a stationary status bar on the bottom of the screen while the background scrolls, could only be done with these.
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yeah, I always hear about things like the CV3 music chip. I didn't know it pushed into things that affected gameplay though. I thought that all started with the SNES.
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ninkendo posted...

Super Mario Bros. 3 - Got this in my Easter Basket which was the raddest thing

Glad I wasn't the only guy getting games on Easter sometimes -- still remember getting Golden Axe 2 one year!
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Final Fantasy's combat was easier to digest than something like Ultima (battlefield strategy based at that point). Final Fantasy did a good job of getting out of its own way. But its presentation was big - Final Fantasy looked good and all the towns and dungeons and areas were well done. It still had its moments of RPG slog, sure. But by the time you get there, you've killed the disgraced knight and saved the princess, traveled the lands and fought off pirates to save a town, sailed the sea and explored an elf town. Quite the adventure.
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I don't think Nintendo would have wanted SMB3 the same time as Game Boy/SMBL.
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maybe. why release Mario 2 then? that was also 88. doesn't matter, it's just curious
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The history of SMB2 is actually pretty interesting!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EUYSN5aFcE
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Yeah FF and DQ were so much more accessible than the WRPGs of the time which were really catered to hardcore PC gamers.
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I sometimes like to wonder how much not rebranding SMB2 to be a Mario game would have changed things. Does it still succeed and become another big platforming brand for Nintendo? Then you start getting sequels to it with its characters and unique mechanics.

And little things like Shy Guy and Birdo then aren't Mario characters.
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Wow 1990 is going to do well in the contest. Didn't realize how many great NES games came out that year.
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muddersmilk posted...

I sometimes like to wonder how much not rebranding SMB2 to be a Mario game would have changed things. Does it still succeed and become another big platforming brand for Nintendo? Then you start getting sequels to it with its characters and unique mechanics.

The four main characters were owned by Fuji TV and were created specifically for a one-time event so I doubt the series would have continued in that way.

transience posted...

yeah, I always hear about things like the CV3 music chip. I didn't know it pushed into things that affected gameplay though. I thought that all started with the SNES.

Yep. We hear talk about the unique chips like CV3's VRC6 and Sunsoft's stuff because Nintendo of America didn't allow those third party chips in NES games, they only allowed the ones manufactured by Nintendo themselves (the MMC series). Some games got downgraded when they came to America as a result, even beyond those sound capabilities we all know about. Contra had more animated backgrounds as well as some cutscenes in Japan, for example. Something like 400 games use the MMC1 which boosted things just a little bit, and then another 400 use the MMC3 which really cranks up the capabilities. On a base machine you really can't do much more than Super Mario Bros. 1 did.

Super NES was when they decided to start explicitly mentioning these things as part of their marketing push. That came at the same time as all that emphasis on how many megs large a game was. Probably all stems from having actual competition with SEGA
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transience posted...

Keith Courage in Alpha Zones

I was going to ask WTF this was, but I web-searched it and realized it was on Turbo-Grafx 16. As if anything came out on that system besides Bonk. (Sorry, Falcom fans.)

quickly -

1988 saw Times of Lore, which was a revolution in PC gaming interfaces

1989 included Mechwarrior on PC, which was pretty awesome for the time

1990 included Smash TV in arcades, Secret of Monkey Island , Railroad Tycoon and Commander Keen on PC. Windows 3.0 as well is noteworthy.
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that review is odd. it starts with Miyamoto's inspirations and ends with Undertale. it's a weird through-line!
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1991
https://i.imgur.com/Qv0vtu3.jpg

Notable Games:

Actraiser
Battletoads
Civilization
Double Dragon 3
F-Zero
Final Fantasy IV
Lemmings
Metal Storm
Metroid 2
Ninja Gaiden 3
Scorched Earth
Sonic the Hedgehog
Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (ARC)
Streets of Rage
Super Castlevania 4
Super Ghouls and Ghosts
Super Mario World
Tecmo Super Bowl
The Simpsons (ARC)
Toejam and Earl
ZZT

transience’s take:

1 – Final Fantasy IV
2 – Actraiser
3 – Super Mario World
4 – Tecmo Super Bowl
5 – Street Fighter II (ARC)

Overall: 17th

Media Picks:

Nintendo Power – Super Mario World
EGM – Sonic the Hedgehog

The SNES and Super Mario World came out in 1991 and it was probably only the third biggest thing to happen that year. With the SNES, Mario was bigger and better – in my opinion, the best he ever was – but it was well-worn ground. Super Mario Bros. 3 had just come out the year prior and Mario World, while great and a pretty big graphical jump, wasn’t a mindblowing step forward like Mario 3 was.

Now don’t get me wrong – Super Mario World has somehow replaced Mario 3 in recent years as the de facto 2d Mario game. It’s always been strange to me how subtle that shift was. Ask the Mario 3 vs. Mario World question in 2000 and there’s no question that Mario 3 wins out. But as people get older, Mario World’s addition of Yoshi, the nonlinear world map, ghost houses, star road, switch blocks, etc became the standard. I’m not at all interested in getting into a Mario 3 vs. Mario World debate – that horse has been beaten to death – but I’m pretty interested in how that shift occurred. I can’t think of too many other examples where one game in a series usurped the title from another so many years later.

Anyway. You can debate which of the top two events in 1991 is bigger. At the time I think people would have said the arrival of Sonic the Hedgehog was bigger. It single-handedly brought on a major shift in the console dynamic. Sonic was fast. Sonic had attitude. Sonic had style. Sonic was the cool older brother while Mario was pretty boring and safe. Sega did a brilliant job of marketing Sonic as being edgy and “next-gen”. For the first time, Nintendo actually had competition. The Master System and the Turbografx and even the early years of the Genesis were nice and all, but there was a clear #1. Sonic changed everything there.

I have my own feelings on the Sonic vs. Mario stuff. I always thought Sonic was style over substance and that his game wasn’t especially interesting. You could fly across the screen but the level design couldn’t handle actual speed. It forced you to stand around and wait a lot more. Meanwhile, Mario World is a hell of a game – 2d platforming perfection. Going fast in Mario is a lot more fun than in Sonic because you actually had good control. I can’t deny that the optics were reversed though. Sonic was definitely the cool one. Hold a poll of Sonic vs. Mario in 1991 and Sonic wins easily.

The Sega vs. Nintendo stuff was fun and all. It was a great narrative. But for my money, the biggest paradigm shift happened in the arcades.
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https://i.imgur.com/OQ64LDW.jpg

Street Fighter II changed everything. It singlehandedly created an arcade boom. It pretty much created the fighting game genre. Fighting games existed prior to SF2 but they were nascent. I would even go further than just one genre – SF2 changed the landscape of competitive games. Most games up to this point were geared towards single player or co-op play. You might try to get first in a racing game or get the highest score, but there weren’t a lot of straight-on competitive games until SF2 came. The early to mid-90s were a huge time for fighting games. We’ll see a large number of franchises pop up in 1993 and 1994 that were singularly influenced by SF2.

I haven’t talked about my personal top games yet. The NES finally started fading in 1991. There were still some interesting games coming out here and there. Battletoads looked great until you played it and it kicked your teeth in. Metal Storm was a creative platformer that looked and played great. Tecmo Super Bowl perfected a great formula and is still relevant somehow in 2017. I’m sure there was a Mega Man game or two that came out. But overall, this was really a swan song. The SNES took forever to get out the door compared to its competition and it hit the ground running. F-Zero used mode 7 graphics to create a sense of speed that was unlike anything else on home consoles. Actraiser was a fantastic genre mashup between an action platformer and a simulation game. There weren’t a ton of games at launch but they were surprisingly good. Nintendo probably held back on the SNES until the NES finally stopped selling like crazy.

The jewel in my eyes was Final Fantasy IV. FF4 was a huge upgrade from Final Fantasy on every level. Story, characters, setting, music, scope, length, battles – everything was upgraded here. FF4 remains the most influential game in the series. It invented active time battle. It defined the tropes that would exist in Japanese RPGs throughout the 90s and beyond. It taught games how to have climactic scenes with memorable characters and thrilling music. This game was a revelation in 1991. I don’t know if I’d call it ahead of its time but it definitely set the bar for what a console RPG would be.

PC gaming was starting to come into its own in 1991 too. Civilization launched in 1991 and put turn based strategy games on the map. There were lots of these prior but I think Civ popularized it. Others closer to that genre can prove me wrong if they want. Lemmings probably doesn’t play today but the puzzle game was ubiquitous throughout the 90s and made its way to tons of platforms. Scorched Earth and ZZT are a little more obscure (especially ZZT) but stand out as influential games in their respective genres.

Overall, 1991 was a really big year. Nintendo wasn’t alone at the top anymore – lots of companies were coming for them.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

ProfitProphet posted...

UItimaterializer posted...

Tran, can you read my Zelda 1 review and give me a quick thought? I wrote it in hopes guys like us would appreciate it.

Zelda 1 is probably the best game ever made.

Great review and I agree with pretty much all of it. How old are you, btw?

I'm 34. I was there when Zelda 1 came out, and if you weren't there it's hard to describe how insanely big it was back then.

I wouldn't put it on a personal list as #1 or anything, but the case can easily be made for it being the best game ever. People don't understand the shadow Mario 1 cast on everything else in the 80s.

I'm 35 so some of my fondest early video game memories are of Zelda. I was just curious if you were old enough to remember Pac-man being huge
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not even neon is old enough for that
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I don't remember pac man launching but arcades were huge in my day. Pac man, Simpsons, and TMNT were everywhere.
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Now don’t get me wrong – Super Mario World has somehow replaced Mario 3 in recent years as the de facto 2d Mario game. It’s always been strange to me how subtle that shift was. Ask the Mario 3 vs. Mario World question in 2000 and there’s no question that Mario 3 wins out. But as people get older, Mario World’s addition of Yoshi, the nonlinear world map, ghost houses, star road, switch blocks, etc became the standard. I’m not at all interested in getting into a Mario 3 vs. Mario World debate – that horse has been beaten to death – but I’m pretty interested in how that shift occurred. I can’t think of too many other examples where one game in a series usurped the title from another so many years later.

For other games that quietly rose a lot within their series, there's Majora's Mask and Final Fantasy IX.
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SFII may have created an arcade boom in the west but I assure you over in Japan arcades had LONG been booming. People were actually lining up for games like Gradius when it was first released years before SFII.

Anyways super Mario world is enough alone to carry 1991 significantly far I feel
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I loved Lemmings but I played it when it came out on consoles. 2 player Lemmings was ridiculous fun.

NWN is notable but I didn't play it in 1991

FFIV was huge.
SF2 was huge.

I think being able to save is what will keep SMW on top of SMB3. Trying to get through every world in SMB3 can be annoying when you aren't a kid. There's so much good level design that was always skipped over.
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arcades were plenty healthy here before SF2. they just exploded afterwards.
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transience posted...

not even neon is old enough for that

Yeah I'm not gonna remember what life was like before Pac Man came out, just that Pac Man was in every pizza place we went to. I remember the night my parents got an Intellivision in 1982 because they played the crap out of Carnival. that duck will haunt me forever.

The first game I really remember liking is Cloudy Mountain (though I never called it that)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons:_Cloudy_Mountain

that cover art is piercing nostalgia for me
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my first experience of pac-man is on the 2600. people give ET s*** but pac-man is a bigger offender because that game was good and maaaaaan
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What a year that was. I finally got an NES (I won Little Nemo for the NES in a drawing and that gave me an excuse to get one), my friend had an SNES, and just wow.

I really dig Actraiser even today. I remember spending a ton of money on eBay trying to get the symphonic CD. I don't know if it would hold up today, but I still listen to the music every now and again.

I completely agree with you on Final Fantasy IV. Yes, the game was grindy, but it was far less so than the first game. It had story, it had music, it had pathos that hadn't been seen in console gaming (at least in the US). Super Mario World is my favorite Mario game, but there's no shame in it being beat by FFIV.

Seeing that list of games, I feel like 1991 is a strong contender for my favorite year in gaming. Also, nice to see some ActRaiser love.

neonreaper posted...

I remember the night my parents got an Intellivision in 1982 because they played the crap out of Carnival. that duck will haunt me forever.

f*** that duck.
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I think I played Pac-Man in a pizza place before I had an Atari. And I still have E.T. and the manual somewhere. I liked it when I was a kid
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In my day, we had to bring our own backgammon boards to the pizza place
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You had bad pizza places
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