Board 8 > Marvel's Iron Fist show is taking a beating from critics [netflix]

(+) Yeah! (+)

Those are the four main members. Like every team, it has fluctuations.
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ah ok.

edit: i don't think the fantastic four had fluctuations >_> unless we're counting the weird animated series that had a robot instead of human torch.
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Say what you will About the second half of Luke Cage but the first 6 episodes are still better than the entire Arrowverse
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Johnbobb posted...

Say what you will About the second half of Luke Cage but the first 6 episodes are still better than the entire Arrowverse

Uhh
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nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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I wouldn't say first half of Luke Cage is better than the Arrowverse. It's better than S3 Arow onwards though for sure.


Second half of Luke Cage can hang with those arrow seasons
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bryans7 posted...

One of Luke Cage's biggest problems was Cottonmouth was ten times the villain that Diamondback was.

Yep this is my thing too and why the second half is pretty lame

Daredevil S1 and Jessica Jones were great mainly because their villains were just as interesting, if not more, than the protagonists. Season 2 of Daredevil has Punisher but it was hurt by a lot of story arcs at once and the chemistry of the mains not being as strong as the first.

I think my rankings by show is very similar to my final villain ranking
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dr. strange (2016, film) sucked too

marvel's going downhill

its dc's turn to rise

(dr. strange, the character, is cool though)
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Doctor Strange was probably the best Marvel film in terms of screenwriting, effects, presenting "logic" within its universe and creating something relatively original for the franchise.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

The only issue I have regarding race is when an Asian actor auditioned for the role of the main character and was told that, due to his race, he could only be the villain of the show.

To me that's more serious than the main character simply being played a white actor.

Danny Rand is a white guy, though. So apparently you have a problem with sticking true to the comics?

I say this as someone who actually doesn't care what race you make a character for the most part. Although I do think you have to have a Mediterranean look for Wonder Woman because that's her origin and it's pretty important to the character. That's a rare exception.

But it's a director's f***ing choice. If he wants a white character played by a white guy, then stop being a prick and let them hew to the comics. Was there a better choice for Danny Rand out there who was Asian? Not necessarily. I personally wouldn't cast him as Asian because a big piece of the character is that he's a white guy who enters in a non-white guy world.

At the same time, I don't give a f*** if Peter Parker is white or black. Actually same goes for Superman. You can make Aquaman Hispanic for all I care. But you don't get to harsh on a director for sticking to the comics if they do.

The problem with iron fist in the first place is that yoi coildnt START writing that comic now and this is MOST people's introduction to him.
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That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.
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The best Marvel movie remains Captain America 2. I don't see how they can beat it, though I hope they one day do.
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Deadpool is my favorite Marvel movie by far so far. Haven't gotten to see Logan yet since I've been sick since it came out

swordz9 posted...

Deadpool is my favorite Marvel movie by far so far. Haven't gotten to see Logan yet since I've been sick since it came out

Well I meant MCU.
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swordz9 posted...

Deadpool is my favorite Marvel movie by far so far. Haven't gotten to see Logan yet since I've been sick since it came out

Pretty obvious we're talking about the MCU.
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Winter Solider is my favorite Marvel movie followed by Guardians
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Doctor Strange was probably the best Marvel film in terms of screenwriting, effects, presenting "logic" within its universe and creating something relatively original for the franchise.

but it was boring
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Well damn that means I can't count Guardians either. Hmm Winter Soldier is probably my pick then though I haven't seen Civil War yet. I do really love Iron Man too though so it's close.

greengravy294 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Doctor Strange was probably the best Marvel film in terms of screenwriting, effects, presenting "logic" within its universe and creating something relatively original for the franchise.

but it was boring

Most people disagree with you on that. You're allowed to have your opinion, but if you can't explain why and if they vast majority of people disagree with it, then you can't cite it as a definitive trend. Most people enjoyed Doctor Strange and it was considered a step up from recent Marvel films.
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swordz9 posted...

Well damn that means I can't count Guardians either. Hmm Winter Soldier is probably my pick then though I haven't seen Civil War yet. I do really love Iron Man too though so it's close.

Guardians is MCU.
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swordz9 posted...

Well damn that means I can't count Guardians either. Hmm Winter Soldier is probably my pick then though I haven't seen Civil War yet. I do really love Iron Man too though so it's close.

Guardians is an MCU film...
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swordz9 posted...

Well damn that means I can't count Guardians either.

Guardians is in the MCU though so it does count
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hey guys did you know guardians is in the MCU
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Yea my bad I'm on mobile


Also just so you guys know Guardians is in the MCU
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Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

The only issue I have regarding race is when an Asian actor auditioned for the role of the main character and was told that, due to his race, he could only be the villain of the show.

To me that's more serious than the main character simply being played a white actor.

Danny Rand is a white guy, though. So apparently you have a problem with sticking true to the comics?

I say this as someone who actually doesn't care what race you make a character for the most part. Although I do think you have to have a Mediterranean look for Wonder Woman because that's her origin and it's pretty important to the character. That's a rare exception.

But it's a director's f***ing choice. If he wants a white character played by a white guy, then stop being a prick and let them hew to the comics. Was there a better choice for Danny Rand out there who was Asian? Not necessarily. I personally wouldn't cast him as Asian because a big piece of the character is that he's a white guy who enters in a non-white guy world.

At the same time, I don't give a f*** if Peter Parker is white or black. Actually same goes for Superman. You can make Aquaman Hispanic for all I care. But you don't get to harsh on a director for sticking to the comics if they do.

The problem with iron fist in the first place is that yoi coildnt START writing that comic now and this is MOST people's introduction to him.

Right. You can only have other races getting culture shock from being in a white man's world now, you can't have a white man get culture shock from being in someone else's culture.

And if that white man is able to overcome and let that culture embrace him? Boy howdy, we got issues.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.

Point blank? Iron Fist is a kinda racist archetype. heroic white karate guy beats up evil asian karate guys - its racist, no way around it.

People put up with it because hes established beyond the archetype at this point within the comics. But this is a lot of viewers first foray with Danny, so they have no reason to put up with it, which is something some reviewers have chosen not to do.
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I wasn't sure if it was or wasn't, but now I know. Should probably look up what is and isn't.

Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.

Point blank? Iron Fist is a kinda racist archetype. heroic white karate guy beats up evil asian karate guys - its racist, no way around it.

People put up with it because hes established beyond the archetype at this point within the comics. But this is a lot of viewers first foray with Danny, so they have no reason to put up with it, which is something some reviewers have chosen not to do.

How is it racist that a white guy fights bad guys who HAPPEN to be Asian?

This is why you can't just tell a cool story anymore. Why does the race matter? Here's why: it doesn't. If the story isn't presenting some form of racial bias (and it doesn't), then just chill the f*** out.
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swordz9 posted...

I wasn't sure if it was or wasn't, but now I know.

well you know, thanos is in both of the avengers movies and guardians.
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Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.

Point blank? Iron Fist is a kinda racist archetype. heroic white karate guy beats up evil asian karate guys - its racist, no way around it.

People put up with it because hes established beyond the archetype at this point within the comics. But this is a lot of viewers first foray with Danny, so they have no reason to put up with it, which is something some reviewers have chosen not to do.

All those movies and shows where the white cops fight against the evil asian triad guys are so racist.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.

Point blank? Iron Fist is a kinda racist archetype. heroic white karate guy beats up evil asian karate guys - its racist, no way around it.

People put up with it because hes established beyond the archetype at this point within the comics. But this is a lot of viewers first foray with Danny, so they have no reason to put up with it, which is something some reviewers have chosen not to do.

How is it racist that a white guy fights bad guys who HAPPEN to be Asian?

This is why you can't just tell a cool story anymore. Why does the race matter? Here's why: it doesn't. If the story isn't presenting some form of racial bias (and it doesn't), then just chill the f*** out.

Because it is. Race matters because we can't escape the context in which we live that race matters - in fact it matters more now than it did 30 years ago because we talk about it a lot more. That's how society and art work they can't be divorced from one another because by nature they inform one another. You could tell this story unproblematically if there werent such major issues of race ravaging our society.

But there are. So its racially problematic if not out and out racist and that's going to be a legitimate criticism.
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profDEADPOOL posted...

Bane_Of_Despair posted...

The white actor thing is def not as prevalent in the reviews as it just not being a great show

But one review did focus on that being an issue or something so that means they all must have.

FAKE NEWS

FAKE MEDIA

LYING TO FANS

To be fair, four of the first five reviews I clicked on mentioned it
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Eddv posted...

But there are. So its racially problematic if not out and out racist and that's going to be a legitimate criticism.

No, it flat out isn't. Race DOES NOT f***ING MATTER. It's the same story whether Iron Fist is Asian going to white land or White going to Asian land. Or Black going to Polynesian land. It's Stranger in a Strange Land. It's "I'm entering a culturally dissimilar realm and learning to face the angels and demons of that land."

By Eddv's logic, Harry Potter is racist because a Muggle-raised kid is entering the realm of magic. And don't tell me it's not the same because they all have white skin. That is the exact same story. The only difference here is that the geographical destination that is different happens to be another whiteland. It's the same concept. I reject your entire premise. You know what didn't bother anyone? Adam Strange presenting the same concept. Exact same concept we're talking about here. Except we made the aliens look like white people mostly. No difference, and you don't claim about it.

But it's the same story. Those aliens? They're another race. And Adam Strange falls in love with a native and has mixed race little babies. And the bad guys are all of the other race. So racist!

When you enter another culture, that tends to happen.
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The problem as I understand it (note: not an Iron Fist fan so correct me if I'm wrong) is more that people think it conforms to the white saviour archetype. You know, white dude ends up in foreign culture, takes on the best aspects of that culture, but also then saves and/or leads them because he's still white.

That's what the claims are and you can see why people would think of that. It's not the end of the world, but it is a trite stereotype you would hope they would avoid.

Again, I'm not making a judgment of Iron Fist, I'm just saying what the arguments about race are saying.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.

Point blank? Iron Fist is a kinda racist archetype. heroic white karate guy beats up evil asian karate guys - its racist, no way around it.

People put up with it because hes established beyond the archetype at this point within the comics. But this is a lot of viewers first foray with Danny, so they have no reason to put up with it, which is something some reviewers have chosen not to do.

All those movies and shows where the white cops fight against the evil asian triad guys are so racist.

The Fast and the Furious is so racist. A white guy tries to infiltrate a colored man's gang to take down some Asians.
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Probably the most racist aspect of this is that if the story was reversed, Eddv wouldn't be saying s***. If it was a white culture being visited by an Asian guy, he wouldn't make these comments.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

That made no sense as a sentence or as a concept.

Point blank? Iron Fist is a kinda racist archetype. heroic white karate guy beats up evil asian karate guys - its racist, no way around it.

People put up with it because hes established beyond the archetype at this point within the comics. But this is a lot of viewers first foray with Danny, so they have no reason to put up with it, which is something some reviewers have chosen not to do.

All those movies and shows where the white cops fight against the evil asian triad guys are so racist.

A lot of them sort of are - this criticism didnt just form out of thin air.

I'm not a big proponent of this sort of s*** because I think its banal trivia, but they have a legit grievance and telling them they don't just makes them feel like you're a closet racist.
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If The Hand are a ninja faction worth anything getting rid of them with brute force should be difficult to achieve even for The Avengers

Swatting at shadows is a fruitless endeavor as a great ninja once said

Editor's Note: I realize this hasn't been brought up in 50 posts shut up it's more interesting than trying to claim everything is racist.
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The Avengers are legitimately a terrible team based on the films and I'm glad they don't try to do anything.

They have three major appearances, and in all three they fight each other.
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It's not racist, it's just less appealing to audiences at large. Write a comic in the 60s and your writing a fantasy for white boys. Others don't share that fantasy.

Lightning Strikes posted...

The problem as I understand it (note: not an Iron Fist fan so correct me if I'm wrong) is more that people think it conforms to the white saviour archetype. You know, white dude ends up in foreign culture, takes on the best aspects of that culture, but also then saves and/or leads them because he's still white.

That's what the claims are and you can see why people would think of that. It's not the end of the world, but it is a trite stereotype you would hope they would avoid.

Again, I'm not making a judgment of Iron Fist, I'm just saying what the arguments about race are saying.

Yes this is the "archetype" I was refering to. to most comic book fans its not a big deal because its just his origin story and he doesn't really spend a ton of time doing that stuff these days. But this series IS his origin story, which IS the stereotypical and problematic part so it IS a legit grievance.

That said, it sounds like if this were the ONLY problem with the show that it would have been a major blessing and that this thing is terribly flawed all across the board.
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Demographics show that the comic book reader base is actually whiter now than it was in the 60s.

The cost of a comic in 1962 is actually worth 96 cents today. Comics today cost $2.99. This has driven comics away from a lot of audiences and closer to middle class America.
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Question for scarletspeed7

Would you consider the old Hanna Barbera cartoons "Hong Kong Phooey" and "The Amazing Chan and the Chan Clan" racist?
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Hong Kong Phooey is racist in a lot of ways, sure. Never watched the other. Not a Hanna Barbara guy.
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Lightning Strikes posted...

The problem as I understand it (note: not an Iron Fist fan so correct me if I'm wrong) is more that people think it conforms to the white saviour archetype. You know, white dude ends up in foreign culture, takes on the best aspects of that culture, but also then saves and/or leads them because he's still white.

That's what the claims are and you can see why people would think of that. It's not the end of the world, but it is a trite stereotype you would hope they would avoid.

Again, I'm not making a judgment of Iron Fist, I'm just saying what the arguments about race are saying.

I think this ignores the actual story but... that is also on Marvel for it not being clear to people who haven't read Immortal Iron Fist.

K'un L'un isn't like a city in China or Tibet or Japan. It is its own mystical place in its own dimension that sometimes becomes connected to the Earth so people can visit it. And the Iron Fist is almost always an outsider. From the internal politics perspective whether Danny Rand is Chinese, Japanese, or White he would still be not a K'un-Lunan.

Now that of course isn't to say that this makes it avoid the white savior archetype but to be more accurate the story of the Iron Fists in general is almost always foreign saviors.
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Eddv posted...

A lot of them sort of are - this criticism didnt just form out of thin air.

I'm not a big proponent of this sort of s*** because I think its banal trivia, but they have a legit grievance and telling them they don't just makes them feel like you're a closet racist.

You mean like when people say "this is racist and offensive" and you are made to feel like a closet racist because you don't agree with said racism?

We're at the point where disagreeing when someone says something is racist and trying to discuss it implies someone should make them think that you're a closet racist. I hope you can see that problem there.
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Jessica Jones > Daredevil S2 > Daredevil S1

haven't watched Luke Cage, though I'm going to soon

this is not a good sign for Iron Fist or The Defenders though
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I read one preview where they talk about how Danny teaches an Asian woman who is the head of her own Dojo like super basic martial arts s***, and that sounds pretty f***ed up to me.
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Sounds like nonsensical writing not racism.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I read one preview where they talk about how Danny teaches an Asian woman who is the head of her own Dojo like super basic martial arts s***, and that sounds pretty f***ed up to me.

Uh... what.

God why would they do that to either of them.
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