Lurker > adjl

Pics?
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Zeus posted...

Well, who can argue with that silly anecdotal example?

Most of what's being said in here on both sides are silly little anecdotal examples.
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Smarkil posted...

Yeah, men have tried that. They immediately are dismissed as neckbeards and MRA's that deserve no voice in the community.

So do it anyway. You think anyone felt that suffragettes deserved a voice in the community? If you persist in making a well-reasoned point that doesn't attack anyone unnecessarily (so don't use "men shouldn't be pushed out of being nurses" to dismiss other issues), it'll get through eventually, and those who opposed it will end up where the people who opposed women voting ended up.

Smarkil posted...

He was, but ultimately the career choice wasn't important enough for him to fight for. I think someone that really wants something will just have to fight for it and that's one of the battles they have to fight.

That's the thing, though: Nobody should have to fight for it. There shouldn't be a culture of harassment and bullying to overcome for anyone to become established in any field (which is a much bigger issue than just gender representation). That's been accepted as the status quo for an absurd length of time, and it's really not okay.

EightySeven posted...

On the other hand there are a disturbing number of radfems who actively fight discussions of men's issues by trying to shut them down. I'm not saying it's all feminists or even the majority of them, but it seems to happen a lot. I think both of are right in a way, but the issue is more complicated than either of you are making it seem.

Oh, of course people shut down discussion. Discussion's hard. That's why I'm saying it's important not to dismiss opposing arguments, especially when it's not even really an opposing argument.
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Smarkil posted...

Except the narrative that's always pushed is that it's women who are being oppressed out of these fields. I have NEVER heard any ads, politicians, anything that has said, "Male nurses only make up (x)% of the nursing field. The nursing field is just a girls club where men aren't allowed" blah blah.

You can act like it's about equality for both sexes, but until I start hearing of men being encouraged to become teachers, nurses, etc. then I'm going to find it a completely disingenuous movement. And as such, I do not care.

So push it. It's not feminism's job to fix issues that men have; men are perfectly capable of pushing for solutions to men's rights issues themselves. Dismissing feminism because it's focusing on women is profoundly illogical.

Smarkil posted...

I would also like to say that I don't care because I don't think it's a problem. People choose what they want to choose.

You yourself cited a personal example that proves that statement false. Your friend chose nursing, and was driven out of it because of this culture that certain jobs are for one sex or the other.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

adjl posted...

for the sake of ensuring equal opportunity for everyone.

I think this right here is a large part of the problem. You're confusing equality of opportunities with equality of outcomes.

The two are distinct concepts, but they aren't independent. Equality of opportunity will not necessarily effect equality of outcome, but if you don't have equality of outcome, that should absolutely make you go back and question whether or not the opportunities really are equal, because that's a reason to suspect you've left something out. If you can conclusively blame inequality of outcome on something that can't be controlled, that's one thing, but that can't be done here. There's no reason to conclusively believe that we can never do a better job of making STEM open to women, as much as many people would love to say "we've done a lot and it hasn't been enough, so it'll never be equal."
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VeeVees posted...

People ARE already capable and welcomed of going into whatever field they want. We have laws for that.

There's a lot more to making somebody feel welcome in a job than saying they're allowed to do it. A whole lot more.

VeeVees posted...

Why do we have to force interest onto people?

Again, it's not about forcing interest onto people. It's about finding explanations for the disparity in interest, because saying "it's just biology!" is a flimsy cop-out that doesn't convince anyone that isn't just trying to pretend there isn't an issue. And then it's about fixing the root causes of that disparity.

VeeVees posted...

People are not making less money because of their genitals.

The wage gap is a thing. It's not a thing in the sense of women getting paid less for doing the same work (as it often gets touted as being), but overall, women are making less money than men, and that is largely because of the disparity in which fields they go into. That's not technically "because of their genitals," no, but that is the bottom line.
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Rune Factory 4
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VeeVees posted...

Why is it something that needs to be "fixed"?

Because it means people who want to do a job and are capable of doing it don't feel welcome in the field, and therefore end up having to do something they enjoy less and/or that makes them less money. More happiness is a good thing, and people making less money because of their genitals is a bad thing.
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GanonsSpirit posted...

It was the second statistic that got me to make this topic, because I'm unclear on what anyone's supposed to do with it.

Question it, mostly. Ask what factors are involved in that disparity, because it's a pretty major disparity, and consider how it might be possible to fix it. A whole lot of people just throw up their hands and say "it's just a biological difference, nothing we can do!", but I'm far from convinced. Whatever biological influence there is can't really be changed, but the social and cultural factors absolutely can, and should be for the sake of ensuring equal opportunity for everyone.

Smarkil posted...

I'm not gonna get up in arms about it because I don't care.

But the point is that the debate is one sided. Let's not pretend like it isn't.

You don't really get to care that the debate is one-sided while not caring enough to support the other side. That's just lazy and dismissive. If you don't care, don't weigh in. If you weigh in, be prepared to care.

That, and calling it one-sided means you're fundamentally missing the point here, because it's the same side you're talking about. It's not men vs. women, as much as a great many people (men and women alike) like to think of it that way. It's about removing archaic gender expectations from careers where they don't belong. In most cases, it's going to be women that benefit from that, because history, but the same push can certainly be applied to male nurses, and ECE's, and beauticians, and any other traditionally-feminine field. Don't treat this as an us v.s them thing, everyone stands to benefit from new attitudes.
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Smarkil posted...

A friend of mine was shamed out of being a male nurse when he was in college.

I don't see anyone up in arms about that.

Then get up in arms about it. "Oh yeah? Well, men get shamed out of fields they like too!" doesn't make it okay that women are shamed out of fields they like. Both of those things suck. You can be outraged over multiple things, particularly when those multiple things all fall under the umbrella of "we're unnecessarily gendering careers and that's bad."
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Ideally, if some people are suffering more than others, equality would mean making them suffer less, not making everyone else suffer more. Men may take more crappy industrial jobs than women, and therefore find work less pleasant overall, but pushing women into jobs that they also hate isn't solving that problem, it's just making everyone equally miserable. If you want to solve the problem, come up with a way to make those jobs suck less (which will also work to even out the gender disparity if you take away the cultural factors that currently keep women out of the fields), rather than insisting that everybody start partaking of their suckitude.
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VeeVees posted...

Why don't the encourage more women to work in coal mining, garbage collecting, offshore oil drilling, crab fishing, etc.

Mostly because that's not where the money is. The aim in effecting a cultural shift around STEM is to help correct gendered income inequality, since STEM fields generally have higher incomes. Gotta start somewhere, after all. Some of that cultural shift will also trickle down to other fields.

There is also the point that STEM tends to be fairly centralized, by comparison. There are a lot of big corporations that can push for change and have a huge impact in the field. In contrast, fishing or mining tends to happen on a smaller, community-by-community basis. It's very difficult to change the culture of small communities as an outsider, and even if you do pull it off, that's only one of thousands of such communities you've changed. From a basic practical standpoint, you're going to see more success going after larger, more interconnected fields first.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

if i find a bug in someone's code and edit that to make the code work, did i "create a hostile work environment" and devalue the engineer that wrote bad code's worth as a person? no i was just doing my job. why then do we take interpersonal issues and put so much more weight upon them that anyone that doesn't regurgitate HR's buzzwords by rote is to be shouted down, re-educated, or just plain run out of town on a rail?

Because code can be rewritten. Personal characteristics cannot. "Your code would run faster if you took out that line" is constructive criticism. "You could type faster if you had an extra finger" is not, however true the statement might be. People are not problems to be solved. Treating them as though they are is horrible for motivation, which does more to hurt overall employee productivity than any amount of careful, heartless optimization might be able to offset.
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Nothing terrifying about it. Just sad, because that's clearly a very sick animal. Poor pupper.
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Generally, good if you want a baby, bad if you don't.
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Yeah, I've had the dream thing happen/ Never 5 hours' worth, but definitely a few snoozes.
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Solid Sonic posted...

papercup posted...

I can't even remember the last time I got moderated. It's really not that hard to follow the rules.

It FUCKIN' IS if even mentioning a ROMhack is grounds for Illegal Activities.

So... don't mention romhacks? It's not like that's a particularly unclear bit of the ToU, nor is it a subject that's easy to accidentally slip into.
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Shenti_Reborn posted...

It was the depth perception thing and they all legit looked the f***ing same to me.

Uhh, depth perception is kind of important. Sounds like a pretty clear-cut "fair, next" sort of scenario.
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Firewood18 posted...

One thing that cracks me up is the faux shutter click sound that most devices make when taking a picture.

That's actually a legal requirement in some countries, so you can't silently photograph somebody with your phone.
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helIy posted...

Jen0125 posted...

one thing i'm not looking forward to is when every single fucking company wants their own premium streaming service and you're gonna have to pay like $8 a month a piece for all these services.

eventually it's not going to be cost effective to cut cable anymore

then you'll start seeing platforms that combine all the different services into one bundle

just like cable

I figure it'll go in a cycle. Large successful streaming services --> individual companies splinter off and see some success --> market gets flooded with small-scale services --> people stop paying for them --> companies start consolidating into bundles again.
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Photography is easy to do pretty decently, especially with how much of it is handled automatically by even entry-level cameras these days, but it's extremely hard to truly do well, and there is definitely a skill and an art to it.
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I get a pack of 12 for $11 (CDN), which isn't too bad, but it does add up pretty quickly if we go through a lot.
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This probably didn't happen.
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Because the creator fleshed out the universe and backstory enough to make novels, and chose to develop merchandise for it.
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Listen for good quotes that will embarrass them, then use one as your wifi network name. They'll probably get the message when they have a guest over who asks why there's a network called "Oh god, Jim, HARDER."
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BIGTOM_basic posted...

1 Gaming is actually very big so you have a very big audience that is probably quite diverse as more people and places have access to the money, leisure time and technology to participate. So with more people comes more discussion.

In addition to that, gaming as a medium has absolutely exploded. It's gone from being pretty niche to being thoroughly mainstream within 30 years. It started out as a fairly machocentric sausage-fest of an industry, which was fine when there were like five people in it (by their nature, niche industries are inevitably going to have some degree of disproportionate representation), but those demographics haven't been able to change quickly enough to keep up with how fast the industry has grown, so, you've got an industry that's appealing to the masses while also neglecting large chunks of those masses. it's understandable that people would want to push back against that, in an effort to make sure that mass appeal is actually mass appeal, and not just disproportionately represented niche appeal on a larger scale.

Lightning Bolt posted...

Which annoys me, because they're sometimes by people who don't even play games, and frequently by people who have never made a game in their life.
So it comes off as "hey what you're doing looks fun, but it'd be better if it were about meeeee" when nongamers demand we represent them.

I mean, that's not actually that unreasonable. You could very easily say the same thing about people who wanted books that starred women back in the days when reading was largely a man's hobby. It's a problem when it becomes "stop catering to people who already enjoy this stuff and make it all completely different so I'll like it," because that is taking away from the existing market, but it's pretty reasonable for people to want more games to be produced that appeal to them so they can join in on the fun that gamers seem to be having.
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Uhh, yes. Kinda bizarre not to have, really.
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wwinterj25 posted...

Depends on the exclusives.

This. Realistically, if they want to succeed at all, they'll probably have to offer just another mini-PC sort of console, rather than trying to carve their own niche (Nintendo's already trying to do that, with limited success, and Nintendo's got a much stronger foothold than Sega does), and in that case most of their library is going to be multiplat and the system isn't likely to be worth owning (as somebody who already has a PC). In the event that they manage a strong exclusive library that I'm interested in, though, I might consider it.
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knivesX2004 posted...

adjl posted...

I'm a more established user here than you are.

Who

are

you?

Who are any of us?
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I've always just made a habit of touching metal stuff. An anti-static bracelet won't hurt, but it's not really that much of a hassle to periodically ground yourself.
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Zeus posted...

Because you seem to be somebody's alt:

That's not a reason to know who you have on ignore. Off-hand, I couldn't name anyone on the list, because I could not possibly care less who you're ignoring, and I'm a more established user here than you are. People just don't care, dude, and quoting somebody you have ignored usually isn't going to be a matter of trying to make the ignored post visible to you. Get over yourself.
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Jen0125 posted...

adjl posted...

though that is shifting with the increasing pushback against the modeling industry promoting dangerously low weights

i don't really think anyone thinks modeling is a standard for healthy weights

most people understand that models are underweight but hold that as a standard for beauty not health.

Nobody thinks it's a standard for good health, but a whole lot of people think it's okay to be that unhealthy, or underestimate the unhealth and think the beauty is worth it. Hence the pushback, in an effort to prevent that kind of promotion.
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Erik_P posted...

Have psych issues isn't a valid defense.

Psych issues are absolutely a valid defense. If you can prevent somebody from being a danger to society by treating their mental illness instead of putting them in jail, that's obviously the better option. Jail isn't going to fix mental health issues.
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That was a good time. I'm glad we could help her out.
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I've always loved that the job title is actually "planetary protection officer."
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123pizza2 posted...

Peterass posted...

A lot of people are saying that if a game is too hard they would just quit playing.. Just curious, what games are people considering to be too hard?

I don't people are saying that with an explicit game in mind. The question is about extremes, so people are simply stating what they would prefer if they had no other options.

Pretty much. I can't think of any specific examples off-hand, but I can definitely imagine the scenario of trying something repeatedly with no sense of progress, feeling too stuck to continue, and just not going back to the game after that.
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helly posted...

Dikitain posted...

s. Nintendo hasn't gotten a significant amount of 3rd party games for over 20 years.

did you forget that the wii happened

People tend to discount the Wii's third-party support. In general, people are rather bad at remembering the distinction between "this system has nothing" and "this system has nothing I like."
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ZiggiStardust posted...

adjl posted...

I would guess that Ziggi's exaggerating somewhat, because he's Ziggi. It is a console board, though, so who knows?

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/189706-nintendo-switch/75631196:

ZiggiStardust posted...

BIeck5 posted...

The Switch already has a better library.

yeah, that's not true whatsoever.

I should pay more attention. For some reason I thought he quoted the "better library than every nintendo console before it" line, rather than a subsequent, less-hyperbolic one. My mistake.

That said, I could see people making that claim if they include the upcoming lineup. I'd disagree, because I feel the WiiU's library was a lot better than many people gave it credit for, but I'd consider it a valid enough opinion. There's some pretty fun-looking stuff coming down the pipes.
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Fairly uncommonly. Not never, by any means, but they're pretty rare.
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Veedrock- posted...

I feel like I'm missing some kind of significant context here if this is supposed to be a supportive argument. Seriously, a half percent over 13 years?

It's not particularly significant, but it is a positive number. 0% would have supported the argument I'm guessing the passage is making (which is that the notion that immigration results in lower wages for natives). 0.5% is even better, even if it's not significant enough to be a pro-immigration argument. Just to shut down a common anti-immigration one.
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These days, "third-party" almost always means "multiplat," which is why expecting such games on Nintendo systems is pretty silly. Nintendo's gone in a different direction from the other systems, which makes porting other systems' games to Nintendo's systems more trouble than it's typically worth. I'm perfectly happy with that paradigm, since I've already got a PC and can therefore consider every traditional console since 2005 to be oboslete, but it does mean that people holding out for a huge third-party library on the Switch are going to be disappointed.

That said, the DS and 3DS saw incredible third-party exclusive support, so if the Switch gets enough of an install base and ends up taking over Nintendo's portable market like everyone's expecting it to, we may get some of that after all. Probably not to the same level, though, because the expectation is going to be for higher-budget games that take advantage of the system's power, and that's going to promote focusing on multiplat releases instead.

helly posted...

ZiggiStardust posted...

informed immediately that it has already surpassed the wii u with its current lineup of games.

yeah, ok.

... it has like 6 games

I would guess that Ziggi's exaggerating somewhat, because he's Ziggi. It is a console board, though, so who knows?
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Blighboy posted...

adjl posted...

"heavier than is socially considered to be a normal weight." In the latter case yes, you can be mildly overweight and still be healthy.

ehhhh

I'd say most people I talk to seem to have way too broad a range for what they consider a normal weight.

Some do. Some have far too narrow a range. Some place their perception of average far too low (though that is shifting with the increasing pushback against the modeling industry promoting dangerously low weights). In general, you shouldn't really pay any attention to societal perceptions of weight. If you're concerned about your weight, talk to your doctor. If they aren't concerned, you're good. If they suggest anything, go with what they say.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Generally speaking, if a majority of people think one thing and you think the other, then you're the problem.

Eeyup. Effective communication is a two-way street. People can only understand you as well as you communicate.
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The problem is that "overweight" is used interchangeably to mean both "heavier than is healthy" and "heavier than is socially considered to be an ideal weight," which are two very different things. In the latter case yes, you can be mildly overweight and still be healthy. In the former, being overweight isn't healthy by definition.
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DorkLink posted...

adjl posted...

How long until this one ends up being your "crazy ex" because you don't understand anything about what it's like to date a woman and need to bail on the story after you advance it way too quickly?

Fixed

Ah yes, my mistake.
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How long until this one ends up being your "crazy ex" because she realizes the sort of person you really are and leaves you?
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ZiggiStardust posted...

lol what do you want from me? i don't know what to tell you, ok?

*Shrug* Just an odd observation.
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ZiggiStardust posted...

adjl posted...

Leaving for a year cause you to forget something that you've been able to see for 12+ years?

lol i don't know man, get off my back. i had a lot going on then. not all of us back up our memories to a hard drive, ok?

I would think reinforcing a memory for a decade would mean you wouldn't really need to back it up.

Truth_Decay posted...

adjl posted...

What did you expect from a system board? They're always cesspools of angry fanboyism.

This. Think it really ramped up during the PS3/360 era, though.

Wouldn't surprise me. With the growing number of titles going multiplat (a trend that really took off last gen), people are increasingly desperate to find reasons to consider their systems worthwhile, which means they'll be more aggressive in defending those reasons.
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ZiggiStardust posted...

adjl posted...

ZiggiStardust posted...

adjl posted...

What did you expect from a system board? They're always cesspools of angry fanboyism.

i guess i forgot how things work around here, robot. during my break from g'faqs i came across a few forums that didn't fit that mold, ok?

Leaving for a few months caused you to forget something that you've been able to see for 12+ years?

it was over a year, you're malfunctioning, ok?

Leaving for a year cause you to forget something that you've been able to see for 12+ years?
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Erik_P posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

Erik_P posted...

A welching comment. How truly original of you.

You welched though

You weren't even here when it happened so your opinion means nothing.

That's not his opinion. It's a fact that you welched.
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