Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

From: Sceptilesolar | #432

From: Anagram | #430

What was the default 3.5 god of death? I know a lot more about Forgotten Realms than Greyhawk.

Nerull, right? I dunno what was so special about him. I think the real objection is that the Raven Queen was a PC elevated to canon godhood.

No, Wee Jas, goddess of magic and death. She wasn't super loved, but she was the one you needed to worship to be a Ruby Knight Vindicator, which was a pretty strong class.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #420

Oh. How worthless.

More or less. It was overnerfed really badly that way. The right way to go about it is to make it either restore the extra HP, OR provide the THP (one of the two, preset so you can't pick whichever's most useful), and then let it rock. That'd balance it out nicely.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Sceptilesolar | #409

From: Anagram | #406

Could you guys please each post your intended ED, and what book it is found in? I know Kan is planning Demigod and that's in PHB, but I don't know where the other EDs you guys are planning are, or even what ED each of you want.

'Draconic Incarnation' (though note that I object to the flavor; I like Avatar of Storm's a lot better but it's 100% impossible to qualify for). It is from Dragon #388.


Anyway Kanz if you exploit the 'well the old version of the capstone wasn't errataed' I will punch you.

This will only happen if we have to fight seven bosses together. Also, Demigod doesn't get it anyway.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #405

KanzarisKelshen posted...

From: Sceptilesolar | #400

Sometimes the plot has to take a backseat to convenience, though... My main motivation for wanting the timeskip disappeared, but I would have rather have had the timeskip and accept an implausible justification.

Right, but this went a little past implausible and more into 'we videogames now, take three years before proceeding with the main quest'. If everybody had been explicitly OK with that I would have had less of a problem, but as things were it seemed like nobody was aware of the consequences and I really didn't want to get 'gotcha''d into everybody dying. Remember that, at that point, we had suffered a bunch of gotchas that were still fresh on my mind.

I did not get the sense that there was a ticking clock, or rather, if there were, it would be oriented in such a fashion as to permit a timeskip. That is not to say that the plot has to wait on us forever, but a reasonable amount of leniency can be imposed with enough justification (resource shortages, minion incompetence, monsters, other such unforeseen circumstances that would prevent an otherwise perfect timeframe from happening). It could have been that a prolonged wait might have opened the doors to a unique quest or opportunity that otherwise would not have occurred.

Basically, it is not 'not thinking of the ramifications' as much as it is knowing how ana seems to run things. We routinely have shaved off weeks of travel time (something not many adventurers can claim), but the plot does not feel too much different. Perhaps it would have played out differently, but time feels almost a nonfactor unless the event is grand enough (and no, that is not an invitation to introduce mass timed events Ana >_>)

If a plot is so constrictive that it prevents any meaningful RP, then the plot is probably not very good. Yes, we are heroes and should save the world, but if we have to sacrifice player fun, then why play the game? We aren't here to speedrun the plot, but to experience the plot and the characters in it.

Right, and I agree with that. I'm just paranoid because the main plot got kickstarted by us getting jumped by a superwizard we couldn't see coming, couldn't stop, and who made us lose ten years in stasis. I was scared of something like that happening again.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Anagram | #406

Could you guys please each post your intended ED, and what book it is found in? I know Kan is planning Demigod and that's in PHB, but I don't know where the other EDs you guys are planning are, or even what ED each of you want.

I'm actually not sure about Demigod - I'm just falling back on it because it's pretty vanilla, but we'll see what goes.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #402

KanzarisKelshen posted...

From: SovietOmega | #383

Yeah, well, Jimmy doesn't share his toys and Mommy can't seem to afford the latest and greatest so Jimmy becomes the house we all have to meet at. We try to sell bottlecaps and deliver papers, but we just can't earn enough to have what Jimmy does. It isn't so much being childish as pointing out the disparity between players. Ana slips in new artifact without batting an eyelash, for anyone else he responds with 'well I just don't know how to work it in yet'.

Or maybe noone has really presented him with a complete artifact ready for introduction?

Kan is sorta the unofficial artifact maker, and I know I have worked with him to produce things like Vega's dagger and Lloyd's thing.

Ding ding ding ding. You want the artifact, do the homework. I was asked to stat out the BoK and did so. I then wanted to do something less broken and wrote it up. It's more like 'Jimmy made himself a new toy and I don't have one like his', really.

You also have a better grasp of some of the more nuanced rules. Which is why I have consulted you when I have had artifact ideas I want to see manifest in a fair manner. Even when doing so, they seem to take ages to get introduced even when they are considered ready to go. Admittedly, Xeno might have his hammer by now if I didn't have to go through several weeks of absence, but the point remains that it may or many not be a near future thing for me or any other character, while Valerian has never had to wait long if at all.

I think that's just because I've trailblazed stuff, mostly. That doesn't totally excuse things but it explains them.

From: IhatethisCPU | #403

...In all honesty, still trying to make Radiant One work IC. Kirie doesn't want power or recognition of any sort, and the eventual full on eldritch abomination thing doesn't sit well with her. She has enough problems with the Soul Killer thing, and that rarely comes up if ever.

Never mind my problems with the stupidness that is every class feature past the 21 resistances one.

And apologies about the delayed theme list, Ana. Still working on 'em, but trying to get more diversity this time. ^_^'

To be fair, no ED fits me either. I just kinda shrug and move on myself.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Sceptilesolar | #400

Sometimes the plot has to take a backseat to convenience, though... My main motivation for wanting the timeskip disappeared, but I would have rather have had the timeskip and accept an implausible justification.

Right, but this went a little past implausible and more into 'we videogames now, take three years before proceeding with the main quest'. If everybody had been explicitly OK with that I would have had less of a problem, but as things were it seemed like nobody was aware of the consequences and I really didn't want to get 'gotcha''d into everybody dying. Remember that, at that point, we had suffered a bunch of gotchas that were still fresh on my mind.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #397

As for Point 4, that was a jab at how you always say 'meh don't wanna play if CPU isn't here'.

I've gotten this way mostly because of you. Even though I've been around since the very beginning my significance to the plot is basically nil other than "he's the guy that gets beat up so we don't die". The only fun I have is when I get to roleplay with Kirie because you've made it a point to drag the plot kicking and screaming by the air, everybody else be damned. And you're unstoppable, there's no point in trying to go against your will half the time. Why SHOULD I play if I don't get to have fun?

As for the last point, that all emerged because I asked a very specific question and was given a non-answer by Ana.

I'll grant you that not understanding a situation and getting screwed out of what you want to do because of it sucks. That is a fair point. Unfortunately, you went about resolving it with all the grace of a rhinoceros, and basically played the DM's hand. I'm pretty sure most of us left that session ranging from "annoyed" to "pissed off" at you, it didn't need to be that bad.

I don't really WANT to be mad at you, Kan. I don't WANT to have these issues, but you talk down to me for not wanting to work through them, and when I bring up any point against you, suddenly I'm the "humongous douchebag", or I'm "not taking charge".

I don't know what else to say to you, you want me to try to resolve this, but you're like arguing with a fence post.

Also stop calling it "Portalgate". Calling it that is equally as ignorant as comparing your time travel plan to the Holocaust.

The reason I've dragged the plot kicking and screaming Accel is that sometimes, what the group wanted was plot-breaking in its entirety. Remember the timeskip? Originally, you guys wanted something like a half year of timeskipping. While we had to find the Raelites. On a time limit because if the Doomsday Machine is finished we all died. I was absolutely stunned that nobody seemed to care about the fact that if we did that, we'd all likely be dead at the end or there'd have to be an utterly ridiculous contrivance to explain why they hadn't finished the machine. So I dragged my heels and stopped things to a half until I got my way. Better than getting something like what happened with the flash teleportation ban, except final. Can you honestly blame me for it?

As for the other point you made, that's fair. Unfortunately, I don't have much I can say about it - Vance needs some quests of his own, I guess. Maybe we can work something out and then toss the ideas Ana's way? :-/


Acknowledged on the grace comment. I was just really pissed because we've been getting ****blocked with helping Vivi because of ridiculous stuff since forever. I was just utterly sick of it and wanted to move things forward at last.

As for the Portalgate thing, I call that because it's something that caused a crisis and it's good pun (it's like calling it 'the Gategate'). The idea isn't to offend you, just to have a convenient shorthand because writing 'the portal incident that sent you to the Grey Wastes and took Kirie out of the game' takes way too long.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #397

Those sound like stupid plans to me :/

-
And that's fine. I will give you this much, it probably wasn't the best idea. But see, when you go OUT OF YOUR WAY TO BERATE THAT PLAYER AFTERWARDS, you've crossed a line you don't need to be crossing. Are you the sort of person that flames baddies that are actually trying at the end of a League game? Because that's just being the worst kind of person.

Snipped things a bit because I had no room to reply.

-
You've got to remember that while Valerian tries really hard to do the right thing, he's fallible. The Shao thing was him being really really angry at the fact that Shao was collapsing under the weight of incompetence and taking it out on a symbol of Shao (the officer).

The other thing comes from the fact that the LeShay destroyed his world. You have to remember that, had they not been so damn power-hungry, they wouldn't have genocided humanity and filled Rael and Aluxial with eternal hatred for them. The only LeShays we'd met before were power-hungry, demented douchebags. Valerian wasn't very convinced Song was like them, but the rest of her race was an entirely different story. Can you imagine what might have happened if the LeShay had been alive and just as they were in the old world? Worse, if they were like that and we'd sworn not to tell anyone about their secret hideout? The thought was just intolerable to Valerian. That'd be just like letting Rael back in, in effect, and could not be allowed to happen. Flat out. He needed to know they weren't mosnters, and Song's feelings were not relevant. If a LeShay invasion dropped out of nowhere and caused millions of deaths and incredible amounts of suffering to the innocents of the world, Val would have no one to blame but himself.

(And on a different note, Valerian's final, utopic goal is to create a paradise, for himself and all others. Selfishly, he also wanted to go in to see that proclaimed paradise. He desperately wanted to believe such a beautiful place existed, but his past experiences with how his dreams met the world left him too jaded to believe unless he saw it for himself. There's also that.)


My annoyance afterward was because I felt like I had a lead I wanted to follow for the main quest. Having to go on a lengthy rescue mission put a gigantic cramp on those plans, which is why I was so moody. It's still a fair point that I shouldn't have insisted for so long though.

More on my next post.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: IhatethisCPU | #394

I had no idea the WIS loss was going to happen, to be fair, but the rest... yeah.

Incidentally, purely out of idle curiousity, what do you think Kirie wants, Kanz?

Out. She honestly doesn't care about all of this and I'm not sure why she hasn't taken off to seek Ren yet. I blame Saya tasking us with **** to do every five seconds.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Sceptilesolar | #392

From: Accel_R8 | #389

Yes it is worse, outright OOCly threatening to kill a player character because you don't like what they're doing is the epitome of dickishness.

No. Just think of it as fair warning. Far worse would be actually going through with it without telling the other player beforehand that they've hit your tolerance level.

Which CPU did. Repeatedly. See: Causing me WIS loss, trying to chuck me out of my conversation with Ephestral, trying to kill me in the cave...I was tolerant of the shenanigans, but at a certain point I got tired and put my foot down. Don't try to defend what he did, because it's screwed me over repeatedly, and it's way more ****ing disruptive to play to do what he does with not even a hint of justification than do something you don't like because it's what makes sense to do.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #383

Yeah, well, Jimmy doesn't share his toys and Mommy can't seem to afford the latest and greatest so Jimmy becomes the house we all have to meet at. We try to sell bottlecaps and deliver papers, but we just can't earn enough to have what Jimmy does. It isn't so much being childish as pointing out the disparity between players. Ana slips in new artifact without batting an eyelash, for anyone else he responds with 'well I just don't know how to work it in yet'.

Or maybe noone has really presented him with a complete artifact ready for introduction?

Kan is sorta the unofficial artifact maker, and I know I have worked with him to produce things like Vega's dagger and Lloyd's thing.

Ding ding ding ding. You want the artifact, do the homework. I was asked to stat out the BoK and did so. I then wanted to do something less broken and wrote it up. It's more like 'Jimmy made himself a new toy and I don't have one like his', really.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #387

I don't even know how to respond to that last point. It sounds like "Well he made me angry so I have every right to kill his character if I want."

No seriously, you don't respond to being smacked on occasion to "LOL I'M GOING TO RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU AND KILL YOUR CHARACTER IF YOU DON'T QUIT IT BRAH".

And I still don't understand why you feel "taking charge" is more important than the enjoyment of your fellow players at the table.

When you do crap like punch the guard in the mouth and nearly incite the wrath of an entire camp of soldiers that aren't the enemy...
Or disregard all the RP going on and jump through portals thereby ruining humans for the only remaining LeShay...
Or go out of your way to tell another player exactly why their plan was "stupid" and piss all over everything they do...
Or accuse players of "derailing" for weeks because of somebody else's internet troubles...
Or throwing OOC tantrums because you aren't getting your way, forcing the DM to literally have his NPCs leap on your blade to resolve the OOC fallout...

You do these sorts of things, and you aren't "taking charge." You're being a dick.

As soon as I got knocked unconscious and CdG'd by CPU while you and I were having an argument, the kid gloves were off. From that point on the Law of Talion was on: if you're gonna live by the sword, be ready to die by it. What's good for me is good for him.

As for your situations, points 1 and 2 are me playing my character. I'm not going to apologize for it. The justification was sound, and if you don't like it, tough luck. For point 3, I assume you're talking about the Portalgate? If so, I'm also not apologizing for it because the plan was bad. I told you I had a bad feeling and sure as hell, what I feared came to pass. If you had asked for a better solution I'd have been happy to throw out suggestions, but I don't like watching people set themselves up to die if I can help it, which is what was happening. As for Point 4, that was a jab at how you always say 'meh don't wanna play if CPU isn't here'. So? I feel bad if Scep and Omega aren't there too because I really like the way they play their characters. Doesn't mean I'm gonna no-show if they don't appear. That's just being a humongous douchebag, and I think we can both agree on this. As for the last point, that all emerged because I asked a very specific question and was given a non-answer by Ana. if I had gotten a straight answer we wouldn't have reached that point, and I had reason to be pissed considering that was exactly what I was worried about.

From: SovietOmega | #378

I maintain that either everyone should have an artifact or noone should. Though it does seem like kan is the only one to really have one at any point in time. Like, I had to wait months before Lloyd got his, and when he did he was unable to concordance any use out of it before I started playing Xeno. Here I have the idea for a Xeno artifact, and am going to have to wait months. By the time I get it, it will be almost useless.

Same thing will probably happen should I switch to Amy.

This problem does not seem to happen to Kan, who has had an artifact continuously since...always?

But really, everyone else should have something

This is because when Ana mentioned artifacts I did the work for mine. Nobody else felt like it, so that's why you didn't get 'em. Don't pin this on me IMO.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

(Continued)

D) The stuff with Luni is an example of what I was talking about in B, player agency. I got room to exercise my creativity, and did so. Then we got the results. I really can't say anything more than that. This wasn't any sort of special toy or anything, but simply giving me room to write fluff.

Really, most of your complaints stem from the fact that I feel like you're not used to leading the way, Accel. Spending so much time shouting at angry (but interesting) people has taught me how to set myself a goal and go for it. The reason why I get what I want so often is that my primary objective is to get X done, not to do it while not offending someone else. It might be a bit disruptive, but the alternative is getting pulled by the nose, and I'm not taking that.

From: Accel_R8 | #377

I guess. I think the major issue I have is the occasion where it slipped into OOC shenanigans. Like, "Oh you're about to do X? Well I'm going to roll my auspicious dice and.. LOOKIE THERE! LOTS OF AUTO-CRITS! Guess if you do this I'll just kill ya." Or, promptly before that, "Oh this isn't going my way? Well I guess I'll just use inviso-dust and run back upstairs and kill her anyway."

These of course only happened once, but they stuck with me, and it solidified the problem in my mind. Val can basically kill anybody he wants to if it came down to it. I don't like the feeling of being basically strong-armed into doing things one guy's way.

CPU has always done what he wanted and not what Kirie wanted. I got absolutely fed up with getting smacked by a fellow player and told him in no uncertain terms I'd pay him back tenfold so he'd drop the bull****. He gets to be OOC, I get to be OOC too.

(more later, LoLing now)

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #375

It's not about the theoretical, it's about what ALWAYS happens. At this point we seem to either just say "well Val is just going to do it this way so whatever", or through some circumstance the direction of the game defaults to going one way regardless of anyone's input (Saya resorting to mindrape, all of the gods blowing up offscreen, etc). In the case of the latter, sometimes things happen that are just beyond our control and that is okay. The problem is the former, when the narrative just decides to roll the same way that one person was pushing of it's own accord.

This is purely speculation, of course, but sometimes I feel like not just some of the players, but even Ana decides "eh **** it, just give Kanz what HE wants." Again, purely speculation, but nobody gets exactly what they want all the time quite like you do. I'm not accusing anybody of favoritism here now, but like, you keep getting so many things that nobody else does and it contributes to the whole "Valerian is unstoppable, especially to an individual in the party" problem. Which is the other problem, Valerian is goddamn unstoppable if he ever wanted to seriously butt heads with anybody else in the party. It's so mechanical that it's obvious in character.

The big issue is basically this: This has always been "Valerian and Friends" and never "The New World Outlaws Show".

To clarify what I'm talking about, this issue extends not only from combat, but to narrative. The Blade of Kings happened out of nowhere and obtaining it was practically an inside joke in itself. Like seriously, "I had a dream that I beat someone in a duel and now I have this ludicrously powerful supersword just kind of because." There was no big quest to obtain it, there was no rhyme or reason for it, it just happened. You could argue your new super sword was a means to "nerf" yourself, but no. No it really wasn't, not when you're still swinging around a special snowflake ubersword when nobody has anything that is anywhere near that level of BS.

The other thing is the deathlight crap. That's literally just saying "hey Ana, the laws of the world work my way, and I'm going to get upset whenever an imaginary soul-eating doesn't work." Like, really, that's something that has always bothered me and I question why Ana allows silly things like this.

I kind of think that this is coming across more hostile than it should be. And I want to stress I'm not really MAD over any of the issues I have, I'm just frustrated. Valerian specifically seems to get the best treatment out of anybody and it contributes to the uselessness of anybody else that wants to steer in a different direction from him.

Couple of things here.

A) I did not dictate how I got the BoK. I wasn't expecting to see it that quickly either, but it happened and I wasn't about to say no. Ana rolled with what the dice said there.

B) The reason this is Valerian and Friends is because I'm the only one who's seriously set his sights to take the world as his prize. I didn't like how Rael was unbeatable, so I made sure he wasn't. I want to save Vivi, so I go on quests. I want to reinforce Gwen's collar, so I go and bargain with extraplanar entities. Most of this is because I've decided my player agency is immense and then rolled with it. The solution if you don't like it is to take the reins.

C) Continuing with A, Illumina doesn't have amazing powers. It has nothing beyond a Radiant Weapon offensively. If you want to argue it's an ubersword, I strongly disagree with you here. Just pointing this out because it didn't make me any more powerful than a normal weapon would have in a fight - it just made it much easier and neater to do something outside of it.

(more on my next post)

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #372

To sum up the Kanzaris position: "The power of friendship is stupid and One Piece should be ashamed of itself"

Or more appropriately, 'don't jump off a cliff just because your friends are doing it'.

From: Accel_R8 | #373

You realize she doesn't THINK she's damning the world, and legitimately THINKS she's doing good, right? Even if she's wrong, you are forcibly entering her mind and taking information that she had not agreed to give to you. It's a neutral act at best since it was done for a good cause, but is inherently kind of an evil thing to do.

The original point though, it wasn't something the entire party wanted to do and it just kind of "defaulted" that way. It happened completely in disregard of any other party member's input, even after the huge fiasco leading up to it. This sort of thing happens far too often and detracts from the enjoyment of the campaign. For me, at least.

No, she doesn't. She told us she thought Acey was following a cause she (talking about Zeebs) didn't believe in, she was just going along with it because she was her friend. It's a really dumb position to take. It says that her claims of wanting to do good are lies, and what she actually is, is an aimless sheeple.

The other point is a fair one, though. What's the solution to it, though? I mean, at some point, things have to happen somehow. Someone's going to walk away dissatisfied unless a compromise is reached. What would you suggest Ana do in this situation?

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #370

I kind of doubt Ana wants to run two basically separate campaigns. Anyway, Zeebs choosing that she wants the sanctity of her mind intact and people being ignorant aren't the same thing.

We kind of got into this discussion upthread - sanctity of the mind is something so vague that you have to set down the definitions for what you're saying before you get going or it's utterly meaningless. But yeah, I think my point about people saying dumb stuff stands. Just because one of them concerns a person's body/brains and the other one is propaganda doesn't make either of them worth a damn. I mean, what would you expect her to do, not take the high ground when given half a chance? She's a worthless tool whose bonds of loyalty push her into following orders that will damn the world without any questions. She gets no sympathy from me, because there are things that are worth more than any friend, and someone who claims to do good should know about it. Friendship's the luxury of those who live leisurely lives or the blessed meeting of two kindred spirits who share a vision. Someone who wants to do good shouldn't value it over the needs of strangers.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Nah, the reason we're not running two separate adventures is that people haven't chosen to split. If you wanted to go for it, no one would stop you.

(And on a different note, I couldn't care less what Zeebs said. People have said the Raelites want to help the world, too. Should we believe them?)

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #365

In terms of raw data, I can acknowledge your clarification of what constitutes sensory data as being not inherently prohibitive from being viewed. It is still unsettling with the implications it can result in though, but the issue becomes where these senses end and memory begin.

I tend to view a memory as able to just consist of one sense. They can contain more, but one is probably enough. Like, if a person is deaf and blind and paralyzed and only able to taste, they can still have memories of how things taste. Each bit of sensation is ultimately unique to that person, and subject to misremembering as the way our brain encodes data can be faulty at times. This is part of why I say that sensory information retrieved from their mind has potential to be false (and if a subject knows they are guilty, they will take steps to ensure this information is false if we run with the notion that mind scans are a common enough thing in this world. Crime generally adapts much quicker than the governing bodies that try to stop it.)

So, if there is a distinct separation from memory and sensory input, and if the need is great enough, I could agree to limited searching. But I question where the line would ultimately be drawn as it is a hair's breadth from sensory input to the complete repository of their thoughts and motives and how they think. We could also get into senseory data depicting a crime, with justifiable motivation not being looked at, but that is neither here nor there.

It still reeks of privacy invading, and if the practice is easy enough, too easily applied to any instance of criminal activity which would, as I suggested, lead to Orwellian dystopias and general unhappiness amongst the populace.

Yeah, it's a tricky matter. The details of the execution kind of escape me because I'm tired and this is hard to puzzle out, but I'm positive it comes down to the point where you draw the line.

From: Sceptilesolar | #366

I believe it was already established no such crime exists, and we never charged her with that in the first place.

Not in Sayaburg laws, but it's a clear crime against everybody else's basic rights. If you rape someone outside the jurisdiction of all states, it's still a rape. Same thing here.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Anagram | #363

You aren't really going to claim that you wouldn't force sensory information stealing on someone innocent but who's still uncooperative if you thought it would be helpful, are you, Kan?

For normal crimes? Absolutely not.

If the world is ending in ten minutes and we need that information or that person dies and everybody else dies with them? Tough question. If there were other ways to get it I'd try them first, but if push came to shove...that'd probably be an invocation of the Watcher's Maxim, I think. It's an interesting thing though.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #361

Seeing is indeed not thinking, but imagine you lived in a glass house. Every action you took open to the world to see. It would be a pretty humiliating existence. Sure, the parallels are not exact as there would be more than one viewer here, but with mental probing it is magnified in that any event can be put under scrutiny. Every moment that is seen can be studied. The difference between this and a fingerprint is that one is a much richer and more voluminous collection of data. A print is like a 1kb computer file that says "yup, this is who you think it is". A summation of all of their senses is like every other file, image, video, audio, text. The scale of it sets it apart.

I would argue that it really is not that hard to make your senses lie to you, since some of them literally operate by tricking your brain. You might not have voluntary control, at least not in our world, but you certainly could if we invoke magic. The very means that allow mental probing to be a thing can work to shield a mind or negate the veracity of the information gained.

As for lie detecting spells, as they do not invade the person's mind and have free reign across everything that person has ever experienced, no I am not nearly as opposed to them. I can't say I am a huge fan of overriding a person's free will, but when the stakes are high it is a relatively acceptable option. Certainly when compared to invasive procedures that are not consented to.

See, I disagree with this. I should note that I am extraordinarily opposed to actual mindrape and mental invasion - if you want to use an example of that, look at what we did with Vivi. It was for a good end, and it might have had good results, but it was still an unlawful act (we'll leave morality aside - you could spend an entire week debating the intricacies of it). I do not feel the same way about taking someone's sensory registry. To me, that is much closer kin to, say, taking a few locks of bloodstained hair off someone to see if the blood matches up with that of a victim, or once again, prints. Your senses aren't who you are, but rather what you did. They're action data, and not thoughts. Scale is not an argument I can respect, because it doesn't really excuse committing a crime. You did it, and now some of your rights are briefly voided. You can't walk away, your possessions aren't yours, and neither should your senses be yours if their information can help society as a whole. In contrast, someone who is innocent and not a suspect would have to give his or her consent before going through a sensory scan, same way you don't jail someone who is a witness. If they refuse, they refuse. If not, you get the information with as few distortions as possible.

Now, you can try to argue that your sensory registry can be warped by your brain, and thus becomes a memory. This, to me, is a much weightier argument, but it has some flaws. Mostly, the flaws I can see lie on defining what, exactly, counts as a memory. Is it anything stored in your brain? Is it something with emotional attachment? Or maybe something else? This probably has to be defined to continue the debate any further. Personally, I err on the side of thinking that a memory is your complete, multisensory recollection of an event, as interpreted by your brain. The bits and pieces of it are the building blocks of it, but not the memory itself.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Sceptilesolar | #359

I should point out that your argument doesn't function because Zeebs wasn't being charged with a crime at all. It wasn't mindrape, it was illegal search and seizure.

The crime was conspiring against reality. And it was a confessed crime, at that.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Again, there's a confusion between thought and senses here. Seeing is not thinking. Taking what people can see =/= taking their memories and thoughts. A memory is what you remember about an event. A thought is how you interpreted it. The sensory input if how your body catalogued a stimulus. There's a world of difference here. So again, I ask: criminals have their possessions confiscated if authorities believe they can be used as evidence to convict them of a crime (and there's reason to suggest they are guilty). They also have their fingerprints, AKA a record of their interactions with the world, taken so that they can be used against them. How is one record of their interaction with the world different from another?

EDIT: Because it's much harder to falsify memories than it is to falsify your accounts of what happened. Similarly, it is much, MUCH harder to make your senses lie than it is to make your tongue do so. On this same token, would you be opposed to lie-detecting spells? Unlike a polygraph, they don't have a chance of failure, so long as magical protections are dispelled and you phrase your questions carefully enough. They override free will, because they tell the person talking to you that you are lying to them, with no chance of failure. So, would you argue against them too?

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #354

KanzarisKelshen posted...

From: Accel_R8 | #352

We did that once and the result was two PCs rolling death saves and dropping into negative HP after about thirty minutes of OOC discussion ruining the scene, and the resulting roleplay "defaulting" to more mind rape.

Which still irks me. The first solution was "mind rape". So drama over the mind rape happens. And then the situation gets brought to the most responsible NPC to deal with.

And she defaults to mind rape.

It wasn't mindrape though. Mindrape involves either spying someone's emotions and thoughts, or straight up rewriting them. Looking for the base's location is checking for sensory input that matches what you need. It's like taking someone's prints - they don't get to refuse that, so why would they get to refuse a sensory scan?

If you could set up a scan in such a way that you can literally pinpoint specifically if there is a memory of a base or not, then it would not be such a big deal. However, failing that, it would involve sifting through a person's life which is naturally considered to be a gross breach of privacy.

Prints stay the same unless you purposefully alter them, but the information they impart is specific and socially recognizable as valid ID. A person's memories are as varied as gains of sand on a beach and more valuable than diamond.

And in a world where mind magic is a thing, why wouldn't a person's sensory register be as valid as their fingerprints? That's what I don't understand here - this isn't our world and it's, in some ways, infinitely more advanced. Being able to get the information you need from a criminal with little chance of failure (but still existent, same as with prints but more reliable) is exactly the sort of thing you need when lives are at stake, which they were in our case. When you conspire to rob someone of their basic rights, AKA the rights to live, be free, seek happiness, you forfeit your own. This includes your right over your private possessions, including your senses. I'm not seeing why they wouldn't count as such, honestly.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #352

We did that once and the result was two PCs rolling death saves and dropping into negative HP after about thirty minutes of OOC discussion ruining the scene, and the resulting roleplay "defaulting" to more mind rape.

Which still irks me. The first solution was "mind rape". So drama over the mind rape happens. And then the situation gets brought to the most responsible NPC to deal with.

And she defaults to mind rape.

It wasn't mindrape though. Mindrape involves either spying someone's emotions and thoughts, or straight up rewriting them. Looking for the base's location is checking for sensory input that matches what you need. It's like taking someone's prints - they don't get to refuse that, so why would they get to refuse a sensory scan?

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #349

Ugh. Let me rephrase my apology then.

I'm sorry I came across as a jackass. It's that simple. I still have issues but they're my own. I don't want to be a jerk to people in this group, even if I do have an issue with them. That's all.

OK, yeah, that's cool. Apology accepted, and allow me to reply in kind. I still think we need to talk things out for real sometime, but there's no reason to yell at each other in the process.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Why would you apologize if you don't regret anything? If you meant it, you meant it. I don't care about something like that. What I want is to reach a mutual understanding. Everything else isn't relevant to me. If we can't have that, all I ask is that we set things aside when we play - which I trust is something we can do.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #341

And with regard to that plan, I pretty much knew from a player perspective that Xeno would take damage, but that there could have been some small % of something nice, it was in character, and I know that unless it was 300+ damage that Xeno would be fine.

I actually wouldn't have bet on that so much. I briefly thought about entering the pillar fully to disrupt it myself, but decided against it because it would have been incredibly dickish to NOT put in my damage when the group needed me to do so. But honestly, it was a good plan. It's just a pity it didn't pan out, but what can you do. :-/

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Sceptilesolar | #339

this sure is getting passive aggressive in here

In my defence, I'd say I am being open about my grievances. If I'm also being mean, fine, that might be the case, but I DO want to talk these things out. The whole 'taking the high ground' spiel is sickening, honestly.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

People aren't wrong for thinking different from me. They're wrong for not thinking about things as many steps forward as I do. When people have come up with clever ideas, I've gone through with them. For instance, it was Scep's idea to obtain the Shadow Walk ritual that allowed us to catch the World Eater and save the day with minimal casualties. The difference, Accel, is that you don't tend to think things through. You never come up with answers to points raised against your plans. You never have an answer ready when somebody asks 'and what happens afterward'? If you took five minutes to think about it, I wouldn't be as critical of you as I am. You've got the brains for it. All I ask is that you use them.

EDIT: And to provide a different example, since I know I use that one a lot: when Omega had Xenophanes move to block Ondal from the light beam, I didn't rag on him in spite of him taking lots of damage unnecessarily, because it was actually a good idea. Moving to block the druid's connection to the font of divine power was wise, as if it had worked that'd have been the end of things. My issue isn't with other people having ideas, it's with other people having ideas, having the holes in those ideas pointed out to them, and then insisting they're good anyways.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #335

I stopped reading that garbage at "your character is basically you".

No.

That's all I have to say about that. We're simply never going to agree. Whatever. I'm done with you.

/Shrug

That's your loss. You can't understand people if you cut off communications. This is exactly why I say you're like your character, since when someone gets pushy, you try to get away from the situation. If you want to prove me wrong, the right thing to do is to actually talk this out, like adults, not take your ball and go home.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Anagram | #332

Okay, I just read your guys' argument really fast.


Suffice it to say that while I do understand a lot of Kan's problems, regarding Quentyn wanting a Chosen of Borden ED, that problem specifically I actually already have a way to make work sans Borden, but I don't want to spoil it until it comes up in-game, but I'm sure it'll work for everyone in terms of making sense and stuff.

Sweet, in that case that takes care of things at least partially.

From: SovietOmega | #333

Oh, I have no idea if tiro will do that or not, I'm just saying that as it is his character, he should have the most sway in where he wants the character to go. I have had some pretty clear (and not so clear) ideas of where I wanted Amy and Lloyd and now Xeno to go, and if I have needed DM approval over something, I have made sure to chat him up. Sometimes he thinks an idea I have won't work out, others he likes.

Definitely. I actually am hoping everybody talks things out as much as you do. I'm positive it'd make things much smoother.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #330

No, it's our task. Because last time we left things up to Ana, we got the flash teleport mess. This isn't a knock against him, but rather that it's unfair to ask one person to think about how an entire world works. The responsibility should be shared. So yeah, expect me to be critical if something doesn't work. It's my job to make sure it all runs smoothly, just as much the DM's, and yours.

I meant that ana, being the DM, is kinda de facto the person who describes the events and controls the npc's to make events happen for us. I did not mean to suggest 'let's just have ana choose how he wants to resolve the ED thing' but rather an opportunity for tiro to get in contact with ana and go 'hey, i want this to be a thing for my character, i think this might work out if yadda yadda yadda happens, can you make it work?' and if the DM says he can, i will make its way to the story.

I was not depriving player input, rather I was supporting it.

Right. That seems fine. My question, then, is 'and will that happen'? I'm not sure how many times everybody else has spoken to Ana about mechanical stuff. My impression is that it hasn't happened often, so I'm operating under that for now, since apparently all the communication took place in the chatroom. If Tiro wants to work things out with Ana, that seems like a pretty good idea - I'm just not sure it's happening.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #326

Sure, just ignore a potential solution >_>;;

Still, my point was that it is not hard to think of potential ways things could still be permissible. All it would take to cement something as a thing would be to run it by the DM and get his approval. Sure, we would like it to make sense in the story, and it would be ana's task to make it able to happen. If there is a goal, there will be a path to that goal. Being overly negative about it does not further that.

It could even be that Quentyn will be chosen by Oa to become the new god of brothels in the future, but needs to have this demigod transitory period or something to prove his worth etc and could thus gain that ED and all it would entail.

No, it's our task. Because last time we left things up to Ana, we got the flash teleport mess. This isn't a knock against him, but rather that it's unfair to ask one person to think about how an entire world works. The responsibility should be shared. So yeah, expect me to be critical if something doesn't work. It's my job to make sure it all runs smoothly, just as much the DM's, and yours.

From: Sceptilesolar | #327

Or you could just say that since Quentyn was already like a prophet for Borden, that's kind of different from your 'I just met Edash this instant and am trying to save him'. The circumstances are more in favor for a lenient interpretation.

Alright, so explain to me how it works then. I'm curious.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #325

Kanz, sometimes I wonder if you even realize there are other people at the table and that you can not and should not take matters into your own hands all the time. Like seriously. You come across as pompous and arrogant both in and out of character, and frankly you're just NOT fun to play with anymore. I'm not even the only person that thinks this either, though I'm not going to name names.

I think you need a break from this, you are just TOO serious into this.

Considering if I don't, the plot doesn't move forward except through Deus Ex Machinas...I mean, seriously, who sets up all the plans? You don't, that's for sure. Really, the thing is, you and I aren't playing the same game. Your character is in it for the ride. He doesn't have any goals beyond stopping Rael, which is pure self-preservation. Mine wants to leave a lasting impact on the world. This necessitates that I think much, much more long-term and more broadly than you do, which is why I'm so unhappy - you pretty much think 'what would my character want to do' and then do it. I do the same thing, then I have to think 'and what would he do because he must do it? And then how do I make things work from there?'. Your character is basically you. My character is rather dissociated from me, which causes me to be far more detached and critical of things, thanks to the distance. It also leaves me less happy, because I don't get to make things go the way I want them to even when I'm winning...which isn't often, anyway. Your character already accomplished his life goals. Mine has been forced to sell them out for everybody else's sake. It's doubtful if he'll succeed at achieving even a single one of them. Your game is not my game, and your satisfaction is not mine. And unlike me, you don't seem to get it, because your responses often tend to be '**** you, got mine' (and this is very obviously reflected in how your character always wants to leave what doesn't directly concern him alone - even when others would suffer. Need I point you toward how you wanted Sharon spared just because she was not an immediate threat anymore?). Which is pretty damn annoying to deal with, tbh.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #322

Quentyn already was a Chosen of Borden and I am pretty sure they like, shook hands or something, a piece of Borden could lie dormant in him.

Besides, if we really want the gods back we just have to convince Oa to allow time travel to woooosh them to the future to what would be our present. The effect would be the same and Ondal could still think he blow'd up the gods.

Nothing is impossible.

(also I am not scep >_>;;)

I don't think it works that way...especially when dealing with gods. Remember, when a god is gone, he's gone. As if he had never existed. Ignoring the issues of time travel, that complicates matters.

It also ties into why this makes things hard for Tiro in particular. We went through this before - I tried to absorb a piece of Edash's soul to resuscitate him. Not only did it not work, but I was told in no uncertain terms that he was gone. And certainly, no power was gained. So the precedent says that Borden is just not there anymore. Chosen isn't an option anymore - what comes closer is Dead God Avatar, though I'm not sure that even fits here because it presumes gods leave something behind.

(Also, sorry for confusing you with Scep - your argument was kinda phrased like I'd expect him to put things. Sorry! :x)

From: Accel_R8 | #323

Seriously. There is a lot of jumping to conclusions going on here. If Ana agreed to give Quentyn something and then went ahead and did his "kill the Gods offscreen" plan, that he PROBABLY had in mind prior to agreeing to give something to someone, then he PROBABLY intends to give that to that person anyway.

You're literally assuming the absolute worst. And this leads me back to believing you just CANNOT be happy with anything.

Edit: also that's omega not scep bro

No, not really. You DO realize that the flash teleportation ban didn't affect us until I pointed out that it did, yes? Similarly, it didn't affect Eladrin and Shadar-Kai until I noted that they could teleport as a racial ability. I have learned not to assume anything positive, because things always err toward the side of becoming worse, not better. I'd keep that in mind if I were you.

And in response to your latter point, no, I generally cannot be happy until I am positive the world will not go to hell when I stop looking at it. Considering every time I haven't taken matters in my own hands, this has happened (look no further than the pointless deaths at the fortress because I compromised), this leaves me unable to enjoy things until I am certain that I will achieve total, eternal victory. Because nothing else will suffice to stop this goddamn ****heap of a world from dropping a bad ending on us down the line otherwise.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #319

To be fair, this IS still a victory. It is like a raging river that destroyed some villages, but was finally dammed. Sure, there was loss, but there is no more destruction by the river.

As for ED choices, didn't you yourself say that the fluff involving them might as well be ignored?

You don't get it scep. Tiro's plan was to make Quentyn a Chosen of Borden with a special, appropriate U26 to fit. Now he can't. Literally, straight up can't. Borden doesn't exist anymore. This isn't 'ignore the normal fluff' which I'm huge on. This is the fact that what he wanted to do cannot be done anymore.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

I like that the answer to 'this isn't the time for leveling up, one of the character's ED choices got obliterated out of existence' is 'yeah whatever you be grumpy, we won and THAT IS WHAT MATTERS'. Smooth comeback there.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #311

Killing Edash wasn't novel, and, exactly, neither was this.

This was the end of an arc that has been building up since like what, level 14? We finally ended it, we stopped the madman that was literally destroying planes with a snap of his fingers, rescued the goddess of life, witnessed her ascension to goddess of life and magic, saved the world, ensured that nobody else had to die to the whims of a madman, and resolved one of the two major things that need to be resolved.

But 9000 XP to go lol. We're going to get it off something utterly lesser. "Keeping with tradition" is a crappy, crappy argument. We don't traditionally become epic level characters. That's never happened before. And it should be a big deal. It should come from doing something that is actually epic level.

This was. It ruins the game for me to not cross the threshold into epic off such a great moment. We won. We finally won. It was costly, but we won. Never win, so when we finally do straight up win, we apparently get nothing for it.

And yeah, like Omega said, we got a huge sum of XP for the dumb session before this one, where we did considerably less. Wat?

Really, the only argument I can support is that the XP distribution was weird. I honestly don't give a single **** about beating Ondal when there was such massive material and spiritual fallout. Like I said, this victory was Phyrric. One more like this one, and everything's undone. That's not what I'd reward with an ascent to Epic...particularly because it's nonsense when coupled with our ED flavors. Whatever yours might be Accel, it doesn't fit Kirie, nor Brona, nor Quentyn (Quentyn's own ED pick got nixed by these events, in fact!). So I don't much care for just pushing a level-up on them.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #309

I remember a time when we did something epic and ana was just like 'welp, you gain a level from this' no questions asked.

this was certainly more epic than that event.

That happened all of once, and because of novelty value. This was not novel.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

These last two sessions aside, that's not true. The important thing isn't how much XP we got by the numbers, but by the percentages. And that percentage has remained pretty constant for the most part.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #304

Literally nothing we can do can top this outside of some asspull. So we're not going to become epic heroes after a fated confrontation, no, we're going to gain 5000 XP smacking around cultists.

This ruins a lot of the fun of the game for me. Not making a deal of level 21 and popping it after the biggest of big encounters is akin to turning 18 and pretending it's just like any other old birthday.

But, "Accel is always Wrong", eh?

Nah, we're just sticking to tradition. We're not supposed to level when it matters or we'd have gained XP more slowly in the Twilight.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Welp, turns out I won't be able to make it, sorry guys. :-/

--
Psych.

From: Sceptilesolar | #286

We're still playing Thursday, right?

Right.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Anagram | #274

Still can't decide what longtooth shifters should be if razorclaws are catgirls.

Long Tooths. Saberclaw tigers, wolves, lynxes, or...well, what they are right now. They're boss as-is.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

1,000,000.

It'll be a very strange thing, knowing when I'm going to die. Would give an entirely new meaning to living each day as if it were the last.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/62168402

C'MON COMBO, WIPE OUT FREELIPINO CHAMP! LET'S GO!

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/62168402

C'MON JUSTIN WONG! BEAT CHRIS G, IT'S YOUR GAME!

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/62168402

From: AlphaRayAllen | #285

From: TheArkOfTurus | #271
TheArkOfTurus | Posted 7/8/2012 9:31:40 PM | message detail | filter | quote

Get off the tier list's nuts, pls

You're the dude who always whines about top tiers. Shut up.

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/62168402

BALAAAAA! OH MY GOD HE'S SO GOOOOOOD!

--
Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/62168402