Board 8 > The Castlevania Dominus Collection...hasn't aged well.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Have tried out Dawn of Sorrow (replay) and Order of Ecclesia (first time) so far, and I'm not sure I can tolerate some of the old genre conventions anymore. So many quality of life things missing. Biggest issue is that DoS's drop rate for souls is miserable, and OoE has that but somehow worse, while also feeling like it's a weird gaiden game trying to spite the player at times.

Maybe Portrait of Ruin will be better.

For me the biggest issue is just that the genre has exploded in the last 10 years and as a result these games feel very small and safe. Portrait especially felt that way, Ecclesia maybe the least but I've always had a pretty low opinion of Ecclesia

I don't mind small and safe! I was specifically looking for shorter games to play.

Then they throw sub-1% drop rates at me and the pace just grinds to a screeching halt.

I tried these for the first time a few years back and had the same take. It just felt like the genre didn't understand what made SOTN so good and was trying to replicate it without getting it

At the time I dont think these games were built with the expectation of most players getting every single soul (let alone multiple for crafting). I think they wanted you to just kinda get what you get and move on. Whether that intention worked out is up for evaluation of course. Though in Dawns case specifically people are pretty sure the Luck stat is just outright bugged and doesnt affect rates as much as it probably should

WazzupGenius00 posted...

At the time I dont think these games were built with the expectation of most players getting every single soul (let alone multiple for crafting). I think they wanted you to just kinda get what you get and move on. Whether that intention worked out is up for evaluation of course.

Issue with Ecclesia especially is that it incentivizes you to do the villager side quests, some of which have nasty farming requirements. It also hides crucial weapon upgrades behind rare drops as well. As an example, half the enemies in the game are weak to Hammer/Blunt damage, and the recent Hammer upgrade I got was locked behind a single enemy type with an abysmal drop rate.

Like, I guess I could be skipping all this, but the game is notably harder than Dawn or Portrait and making sure I'm fully prepared has made certain fights easier. I also don't want to skip the souls in Dawn either. Trying out new souls is what the whole system is built around...when you can actually get them, anyway. Why hide the most fun part of your game behind RNG?

Dawn took some of the things Aria did wrong and made them worse. It plays very similarly, but needing to use souls for weapons when soul drop date is so low was a baffling design change.

Portrait is alright. Nothing special. The two character system is more of a gimmick than anything, but I'm not sure how you actually incorporate that into such a genre without feeling like one. It's the shortest of the three and you'll be in the endgame before you even notice it.

Ecclesia is bad. It was bad when it was new. It's bad now. I've never actually finished this game. Getting glyphs at times is even more annoying the souls, and something about the setting never feels right. It also has terrible boss design. Nearly every boss is a giant bag of hp with an obvious pattern that kills you in just 2-3 hits (And the first castle boss OHKOs if you get hit). They're tedious slogs where you just repeat the same motions every 20 seconds, and most take several minutes.

I've replayed both Dawn and Portrait a couple of times, and they both hold up well enough, outside of being insane enough to go for conpletion. Won't touch OOE again. The boss design of that game alone is one of my biggest peeves.

I don't mind tougher/longer bosses but this giant horse thing I just fought in Ecclesia was terribly designed. Don't make a boss that you have to jump on to beat, but only random parts of the boss are safe to touch, and it's not easy to tell which parts, and the boss is constantly spazzing out and shifting position, and if you make a mistake it can launch you off and have you go through three separate phases again. Only fight so far I abused save states to get past because I wanted it to be over.

It's not "long and tough" for most of them. It's "slow and monotonous". Once you've taken a couple of minutes to learn the pattern, you only actually get hit if you get bored enough during the fight to make a mistake.

Also not sure but I don't think I ever fought that horse thing. That sounds too far in the other direction.

grrr don't say a game didn't age well and then complain about drop rates, that isn't about age! Bad design is bad design timelessly!

Honestly playing Dominus and Advance close to each other made me realize how close Advance was, and I may even slightly prefer it as a package (Aria is the best game of the 6 though and I have a giant nostalgic love for Circle dont care haters)

Aria is definitely the best game out of all of those (possibly even including SOTN!!) but Circle is so bad and Harmony so ugly (both visually and aurally) that the DS trilogy probably takes the upper hand

So fun to break circle with the card glitch

pjbasis posted...

grrr don't say a game didn't age well and then complain about drop rates, that isn't about age! Bad design is bad design timelessly!

I was never very big on Dawn for this reason

Though I don't think it really applies to OoE or Portrait unless you're doing a completionist run of some sort. Which I never have. Never felt any slowdown whatsoever in those games.

Dawn maybe if I had played the same wouldn't mind either but there is something about how the soul system is laid out that makes it harder to ignore.

Hot take, but Aria really disappointed me. It's often hailed as the best game of the franchise, but I found it small and forgettable, and I didn't much care for the Soul mechanic. I wasn't the biggest fan of either Soma Cruz game and enjoyed Portrait of Ruin, Order of Ecclesia, and even Circle of the Moon (though that one is very nostalgia-heavy) more.

Nothing in the series has ever come close to SotN for me. Maybe it's because I don't enjoy handheld games much, and that automatically put this subconscious "limiter" on the other games for me, but SotN totally feels like lightning in a bottle compared to the rest.

Yeah, I played through the trilogy last year and wasn't super impressed. I think PoR was the best one, but none of the three really had a lasting impact in my mind-- I actually had to look up the final bosses just now to refresh my memory.

I think as Kenri said, they feel very small and safe. Which makes sense given the genre was still growing at the time.

WazzupGenius00 posted...

At the time I dont think these games were built with the expectation of most players getting every single soul (let alone multiple for crafting). I think they wanted you to just kinda get what you get and move on. Whether that intention worked out is up for evaluation of course. Though in Dawns case specifically people are pretty sure the Luck stat is just outright bugged and doesnt affect rates as much as it probably should

Yeah this. Dawn is both bugged and not expecting you to have every soul. It's still a system that could have been better formed at the time and definitely could have been revised for the re-release, though.

KamikazePotato posted...

I don't mind tougher/longer bosses but this giant horse thing I just fought in Ecclesia was terribly designed. Don't make a boss that you have to jump on to beat, but only random parts of the boss are safe to touch, and it's not easy to tell which parts, and the boss is constantly spazzing out and shifting position, and if you make a mistake it can launch you off and have you go through three separate phases again. Only fight so far I abused save states to get past because I wanted it to be over.

You're so real for posting this, that boss is ass. It's not even fun to cheese in Albus mode because the hit detection is so broken.

At the time of its release, a lot of people thought Ecclesia was really hard - mostly in a good way, sort of like how people treat Souls games. That boss aside, it really felt like an imposter when I replayed it in the Dominus collection though. I'm curious if you've been finding it actually rather hard or just harder than the other two?

Personally thought Order was definitely harder but a lot of that is you kinda are forced to experiment and tinker with different glyphs to find weaknesses against enemies that may otherwise resist your setups and the other games you dont have to go too in depth in learning their mechanics.

Kenri posted...

I'm curious if you've been finding it actually rather hard or just harder than the other two?

Mostly just harder than the other two. There's been a couple bosses that tripped me up (giant enemy crab, shadow thing) but it's definitely not Souls-level difficulty.

YoBlazer posted...

Nothing in the series has ever come close to SotN for me. Maybe it's because I don't enjoy handheld games much, and that automatically put this subconscious "limiter" on the other games for me, but SotN totally feels like lightning in a bottle compared to the rest.

It's crazy how true this is, even though I do still enjoy handheld games a lot. I first played Symphony after Dawn and Portrait and still thought it blew them out of the water.

Man I should play SotN

Dawn is so easy even with a weak collection of souls. Getting the best stuff makes the game a joke.

Circle has aged terribly, but I've still replayed it. I never replayed Harmony (Though at least I finished it unlike OOE).

SotN is a hallmark for a game that's aged well though, no arguments there. Almost everything about the setting, the music, and the flow of the game somehow still hold up today.

Also people thought OOE was hard? I just found it boring.

I can't wait to play Ecclesia, because I thought it was awesome when it came out

KamikazePotato posted...

I don't mind tougher/longer bosses but this giant horse thing I just fought in Ecclesia was terribly designed.

Traumatic memory activated

Castlevania defense force here.

The DS Castlevanias, in terms of difficulty, are wonky. Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin are both really easy, while Order of Ecclesia is difficult only during the map sessions when you haven't found your footing in the game, then easy, then has extremely dumb harder bosses (I love the design on Rusalka specifically, but in the castle, fuck Blackheart specifically.) This is largely because Shanoa's defenses are ass without grinding - it's supposed to be an homage to the sidescroller classic Castlevanias until you actually hit the castle, and that worked a little too well.

Then you look at "fresh file hard mode" runs. Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait feel perfect for this, with just the right amount of difficulty for both (though Dawn does it better.) Ecclesia, then, has PROBLEMS - the first wooded pass stage (the one immediately after the Cathedral) has the brain sucker enemies basically instakill you, to say nothing of Barlowe's training throwing skeleton heroes at you off the bat.

Each one of their games silly grinds are that for a reason. SotN is looked at as the gold standard in the series because you DON'T have to farm 100% completion to be busted, and honestly, same for any of the ones in the collection- just as well, because 9xing souls in Dawn is a nightmare for certain ones with the luck bug - it just FEELS like you have to more in PoR/OoE because of the quest system.

Count your blessings you don't have the original DS PoR where it would crash on a whim using certain Jonathan subweapons in certain places of the map while Charlotte was on point.

Why do people grind for 100% souls in these games tho? I mean, if they enjoy it, that would make sense, but it never sounds like they enjoy it... so why ruin the game for yourself?

Like, you don't grind SOTN for every secret item drop, right? Or diablo? Or World of Warcraft? So why do people do it in Aria, Dawn, and Ecclesia?

For Aria, Dawn, and Portrait, generally because you get something that gets allows you to spam subweapons/souls with near impunity (and this is why I like Eccelsia more than average, because it's built in.)

Dawn's actual 100% soul completion (i.e. everything is bolstered by 9 souls) is insanity though, since it requires at least 10 new game plus runs if you're trying to get 9 of each soul and every item, what with the needing to consume one-time boss souls for weapon upgrades.

Just getting one of every soul takes ages, good luck getting 9.

UltimaterializerX posted...

For people who think low drop rates are bad game design, what would you prefer? 5%? 100%?

Not asking to be snarky, Im genuinely curious what you feel the magic number is. There has to be a compromise between Zod runes and I want everything handed to me for no effort and Ive spent too much time on various gaming forums trying to figure out what that magic number is.

I think if your drop rates are low there should be a point where you're guaranteed to get something. Like, if something has a 3% drop rate, you should automatically receive the item after 20 kills or so of nothing. Give players a safety net to respect their time.

Otherwise the drop rates need to be pretty high to account for edge cases. Even with a 15% chance some players won't get what they want after dozens of kills.

Anecdotally, I modded Bloodstained to have 999 Luck, giving everything almost a 100% drop rate, and it straight-up made the game more enjoyable in every way.

Epyo posted...

Why do people grind for 100% souls in these games tho? I mean, if they enjoy it, that would make sense, but it never sounds like they enjoy it... so why ruin the game for yourself?

Like, you don't grind SOTN for every secret item drop, right? Or diablo? Or World of Warcraft? So why do people do it in Aria, Dawn, and Ecclesia?

Souls in DoS and Glyphs in OoE aren't just stat boosts - a lot of them are entirely new abilities that change how you play. The extra gameplay variety is part of what is supposed to make those games fun.

I was like 16 when i played DS so i was still in "play every game 100% cause i dont know when im getting my next game"

https://www.nexusmods.com/castlevaniadominuscollection/mods/16
https://www.nexusmods.com/castlevaniadominuscollection/mods/7
https://www.nexusmods.com/castlevaniadominuscollection/mods/18
https://www.nexusmods.com/castlevaniadominuscollection/mods/14

Dawn of Sorrow is saved...? Nothing for Order of Ecclesia on NexusMods, unfortunately.

Honestly the luck stat being completely broken does explain the biggest complaint of the first game.

..And of course they didn't fix it in the remake since it's probably a shameless copy.

In Aria you just farm Rubicants in the Arena area til you get a few of their drops which sell.for a ton, then you just buy the Eater ring. Don't quite remember which one in Dawn.

Dawn's easy eater ring method is farming certain easy-drop souls, using Yoko to upgrade cheap buyable weapons with them, and selling them back. I wanna say Zombies and Pummelers were good for this, but it's been a bit, and I think spears may have showed up too?

UltimaterializerX posted...

For people who think low drop rates are bad game design, what would you prefer? 5%? 100%?

Not asking to be snarky, Im genuinely curious what you feel the magic number is. There has to be a compromise between Zod runes and I want everything handed to me for no effort and Ive spent too much time on various gaming forums trying to figure out what that magic number is.

Single digit plus a 'force the drop' pity breaker. Ezpz

Addendum to the above: I also think pity breakers should be universal, like an item you buy and your next kill gives you all the loot it could drop. I also think 'Looter X' games do not necessarily need breakers, Diablolikes would be less fun with a guaranteed loot grind. The methods Last Epoch, the goat of diablolikes, uses, are the right implementation for that genre. But anything where the grind is a side dish and not the point needs ways to force drops.