Board 8 > Hollow Knight: Silksong - Special Announcement

(+) Yeah! (+)

MacArrowny posted...

Are difficulty levels worse than patching bosses?

idk exactly but at least with the patched bosses I have the choice to play the game without patches pretty easily

You would have an even easier time playing with optional difficulty sliders

The alternative I'm referring to is I can't play a game with difficulty selections without difficulty selections very easily.

Might seem a little strange but I do fall under the camp that no difficulty selections is still optimal if the game design can do the difficulty slide on its own.

edit: There are also interesting ways to handle voluntary difficulty sliders than just Easy/Normal/Hard modes too as some have mentioned.

catesdb posted...

i got the wanderer crest now and are y'all sure it's that good?? i probably just need time to adjust, but it's so teeny

is it? i actually tested this when i first got it by standing in a specific spot (lining myself up with the edge of the bench) and seeing how far the weapon strike went and it *looked* to me like wanderer's went further, but i figured i must be crazy or seeing it wrong or something because it *feels* shorter and it sounds like it's supposed to be shorter

I feel like Wanderer is the same range as the default and is basically a straight upgrade in every way. The only comparison is with Reaper, which is a totally different playstyle.

I haven't messed around with Wanderer much but is it true the dash attack doesn't bounce up + chain into follow-ups? That would legit destroy my entire playstyle and most of my offensive capability, lol

I seriously thought Wanderer had shorter range so I swapped back to default

If it's the same I might try it again

With Wanderer after you do a successful dash attack you can attack again and she'll do a unique dive attack into them. But it can be a little tricky and it usually ends up getting me hurt more often then not.

I didn't realize they were also nerfing Moorwing. That was one that I died on a bunch, but I was mostly mad at myself when I did, except when I got contact damage from colliding with the boss.

Wanderer definitely feels like it has shorter range, and only one tool slot is rough

Started the game yesterday, put in 3-4 hours. The somewhat mixed reception was worrying me but I love it so far

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/7b671e24.png

skullbone posted...

With Wanderer after you do a successful dash attack you can attack again and she'll do a unique dive attack into them. But it can be a little tricky and it usually ends up getting me hurt more often then not.

Because of contact damage I've never found a good use for that, it usually ends up with me getting hit. It looks super cool though

I dunno. I dont want to trash this game because I was super mid on hollow knight (and I've played maybe every metroidvania ever) but I'm somehow even less into this game than Hollow Knight.

Maybe I just need to push through but I said the same thing about HK and beat it twice tryingto figure out the appeal

I played for about three hours and it's just hollow Knight again and I didn't like hollow knight so *shrug*

I tend not to remember all the boss names so I thought I hadn't fought the bosses they were nerfing. Then I heard they were early so I looked them up.

Really? Those two?

FFDragon posted...

I played for about three hours and it's just hollow Knight again and I didn't like hollow knight so *shrug*

Im still going because it took me like 7 years to finally push through dark souls and that's now my favorite game of all time but I'm just not seeing anything redeeming about this game other than Slightly better hollow knight

If you really didn't care for HK I don't see why you'd turn around that much on Silksong. Half the reason people like these games so much is for the atmosphere.

I didn't like HK1 but I like Silksong a lot. It's basically a 2D and worse Dark Souls though. Still probably the best SOTN-like I've played though, and probably the best soulslike (I don't like any of them typically). And if you want to compare to Metroid-likes, Animal Well crushes it so far.

What makes a SotN-like different from a Metroid-like to you? Like I know what I'd mean if I used those terms, but I wouldn't call Silksong either one.

Sawtooth Circlet (the attack on double jump/glide tool) is really neat for me in combat since it flows into my typical approach for sneaking in extra hits so well but man it really badly fucks up some environmental/platforming puzzles to the point that I've seen at least one that straight up might not work at all while wearing it. Not sure what the middle ground on that would be, honestly but for now I don't feel like I can wear it while exploring.

To me the mechanical distinction between SOTN and Metroid, other than the RPG stats and leveling, is that a SOTN game gives you lots of abilities/items for you to choose what you like to use, and a Metroid just adds more to your repertoire and youre expected to use all of it going forward (often its not even a choicenew beam upgrade is just automatically added for example)

You definitely have to choose beams in most Metroid games, including Super and Prime.

Stats and leveling and loot are the biggest difference between SotN and Metroid to me. Silksong with loot and leveling would be interesting...

The thing about Sister Splinter is the actual bosses attacks are very easy to avoid once you know what they are, but as soon as you add other independent enemies and have to track both of them it becomes harder. It's probably easier for some than others, but for me I basically had to train my brain to keep up with it in a way that made sense. The first several times I did the fight I would laser focus on one piece or the other and then just get hit by an attack that was in theory easy to dodge if I wasn't focused on the other thing, and getting hit once in that fight also means there's a solid chance you get hit by something else immediately after.

I feel like I don't have any silk skill that's really effective at hitting flying enemies. Maybe I just need to use it more, but I only have the one you get basically at the beginning.

Edit: None of this is a complaint I already said I really enjoyed this fight.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/98a75c6b.jpg

Kenri posted...

What makes a SotN-like different from a Metroid-like to you? Like I know what I'd mean if I used those terms, but I wouldn't call Silksong either one.

It's very much an SOTN-like (the char even moves exactly like Alucard), the only reason it wouldn't be is that it's also very much a soulslike. But those can overlap completely. Soulslike cannot fully overlap with Metroid though.

The difference is best shown in Ori 1 vs Ori 2 imo. Ori 1 is like 80% Metroid while Ori 2 is like 50/50 Metroid and SOTN.

Main diff with SOTN:
Melee combat and dodging
RPG elements
Loot/equips

Something feel especially Metroid if it focuses on:
Sequence breaking with abilities
Breaking walls for secret passageways
Gaining abilities from bosses

I'm honestly not sure I can think of a single time in a game that I've been having trouble with a boss and actually went to do something else instead. I'm not wired to do that.

Not even Elden Ring?

I could never play that series. I can't even get past the tutorial.

How do you figure this is a Soulslike, it's not even an ARPG. Heck, there's no stats or stamina, either. There are "builds"... kind of, but certainly not of the sort nor the extent I would associate with that genre.

pyresword posted...

The thing about Sister Splinter is the actual bosses attacks are very easy to avoid once you know what they are, but as soon as you add other independent enemies and have to track both of them it becomes harder.

Oh i may have been confusing that fight with Fourth Chorus. I was not thinking that was an add fight.

In that case I understand that one better.

Hollow Knight at least is very much 2D Dark Souls. In a lot of ways.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

How do you figure this is a Soulslike, it's not even an ARPG. Heck, there's no stats or stamina, either. There are "builds"... kind of, but certainly not of the sort nor the extent I would associate with that genre.

I mean you're right but I grow weary of this discourse so I've been ignoring it. That said there are clear parallels with Dark Souls in other ways so it's not like when they ask the devs of any upcoming game (most recently Silent Hill F) with a dodge if it's a Soulslike.

There's absolutely influence there but if you're in a completely different genre and share almost none of the actual game mechanics I don't think you can say you're "like" the actual game. This feels like it's coming from the same camp as folks that say Sekiro is a Soulslike despite the only noteworthy similarity being you drop currency on death - and in Sekiro you don't even pick it back up!

The game it feels closest to is Dark Souls, moreso than even SOTN. That's part of why it feels so dated. I feel like I've played this game 3 times already in 3D form.

Some people say Sekiro isn't a soulslike because it doesn't have stats. But that's dumb.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

and have to pick it up.

Incorrect, btw. Sekiro has no corpse run. You lose half your cash and XP to the next level, with a small chance for that to spontaneously not happen.

kevwaffles posted...

Incorrect, btw. Sekiro has no corpse run.

Edited my memory lapse, but good catch - sells it even harder that Sekiro has literally no overlap with Souls beyond being made by the same studio, so it's really remarkable to me that people want to shove it into a genre it has nothing to do with.

KamikazePotato posted...

Hollow Knight at least is very much 2D Dark Souls. In a lot of ways.

The atmosphere and story certainly are, but calling it a Soulslike is like if you called a gothic RPG with turn-based combat that.

I have a friend who started playing HK recently and the first thing he told me was "it reminds me of Dark Souls 1". Whether you want to classify HK as a Soulslike or not, a lot of people clearly feel like the games are very similar.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

Edited my memory lapse, but good catch - sells it even harder that Sekiro has literally no overlap with Souls beyond being made by the same studio, so it's really remarkable to me that people want to shove it into a genre it has nothing to do with.

Sekiro was an evolution of Bloodborne which was an evolution of Dark Souls. I think Sekiro is pretty far away from Dark Souls 1, but the genre has also expanded beyond that original template. It's like how not all JRPGs need to be turn-based.

When in doubt, check the Steam tags. Sekiro's #1 ranked tag is 'Souls-like'.

EDIT: Hollow Knight's top two tags are 'Metroidvania' and 'Souls-like' in that order.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

completely different genre and share almost none of the actual game mechanic

I'm talking about Dark Souls 1 which is structured almost exactly the same and has a bunch of the same mechanics as Silksong

KamikazePotato posted...

When in doubt, check the Steam tags. Sekiro's #1 ranked tag is 'Souls-like'.

I'm okay with all of those people being wrong - Sekiro is an evolution of Tenchu, not any of the Souls games.

I wouldn't call Sekiro unrelated to the Souls games, but I would call it a different genre.

foolm0r0n posted...

I'm talking about Dark Souls 1 which is structured almost exactly the same and has a bunch of the same mechanics as Silksong

Legitimately, could you name the mechanics you're thinking of? I can recognize there are some shared mechanics but none of the core systems are there and classifying something for tertiary reasons feels very strange to me.

Influence is one thing (and is very prominent here to be sure,) but I wouldn't call HK or Silksong a "Soulslike" any more than I'd call Devil May Cry 1 a survival horror game, despite them having about as much shared DNA with their respective progenitors.

Exploration, tone, atmosphere, the way healing works, tough boss battles, shortcuts, corpse runbacks, boss runbacks, minimalist story in a ruined fantasy world. The entire vibe of the game screams Dark Souls 1 (with Metroidvania as the primary framework).

It's mostly just missing RPG stats, and that was never the core of Souls to me.

It doesn't really bother me either way, but is there any actual mechanical distinction between hits that do two damage and hits that combo twice for one damage each?

Most of the similarities to Dark Souls are not specifically gameplay similarities, though. Besides the corpse run what does it really have in that department? I refuse to just call any sufficiently hard game a Soulslike.

But if the Soulslike is a setting and an aesthetic, then you would toss out most of what I would call a Soulslike.

In the end, I don't care too much here. Just don't call shit like Silent Hill a Soulslike.

Oh, and I would also say that a big part of the general Soulslike feel is that you aren't as cool as the bosses you fight.

Let's take Metroid as an example. It's a Metroidvania (obviously), but no one would ever classify it as a Soulslike. Part of that is because it's Sci-fi, and Soulslike nearly all fall under Fantasy, but just as big of a reason is that Samus is a complete badass. Even in the beginning, she doesn't feel helpless or outclassed. Her games are never especially difficult, and she has a variety of powerful weapons at her disposal.

Now look at Hollow Knight. Everything you do feels basic. Basic dodge, basic hit, basic abilities. Your character isn't inherently cool. If anything cool happens, it's because you mastered their bare-bones moveset and executed it to near-flawless perfection. While the bosses you fight are spazzing out around the screen, you're making every tiny movement count.

That's the main core of Soulslike, and it's what makes the most popular games in the genre hit: the feeling of being outclassed, yet rising to the challenge. It's not the same as a game just being 'hard'. It specifically evokes the feeling of being an underdog. This is also what helps set it apart from Character Action games.

WazzupGenius00 posted...

It doesn't really bother me either way, but is there any actual mechanical distinction between hits that do two damage and hits that combo twice for one damage each?

Haven't found one. Even at one health or does both combo hits so that tells me that it's probably completely set no matter what.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

It's way harder than the boss almost immediately after it, which is really weird and maybe wasn't intended? But idk, I died a lot but I think that boss is fine other than the adds and if it's one of the ones that falls on you and hurts you when stunned.

That's wild to me, since splinter took me like 2 or 3 tries while widow took 20+. Splinter gets absolutely wrecked by Thread Storm

kevwaffles posted...

Just don't call shit like Silent Hill a Soulslike.

I've never actually see someone say this, just see people complain nebulous other people saying it.

Although Dark Souls does have a good amount of survival horror DNA in its core concept.