Board 8 > Herein lies my latest attempt to conquer my greatest nemesis, Suikoden 2.

(+) Yeah! (+)

For those who have been around a while, you may have heard about my tribulations with Suikoden 2.

Suikoden 1 is one of my very favourite games and I have beaten it probably a dozen times. Suikoden 2 is S1 but expanded! My perfect game! -- but for whatever reason, my conquest of the Dunan region eludes me. I have tried to beat the game maybe 7 times over the years and every time, tragedy strikes.

It started with simple problems, like dying and losing an hour-plus progress when I wasn't expecting it, convincing me to give up and move on. It then progressed to the game crashing about 3ish hours in. The next time I played, it didn't crash, but my save got randomly wiped. Over time, it has slowly escalated - hardware issues, power outages, you name it. Suikoden 2 has my number.

My most recent attempt was in 2022, when I put it on my Vita. I finally crossed the 5 hour threshold and was having a great time! I actually got my castle! But, about 15 hours in, I had the worst crash yet:

https://x.com/transience242/status/1572415809653280772

Yep, every single PS1 save on my Vita -- FFT, Xenogears, anything -- was cooked. The curse is real.

During that playthrough, a Suikoden remaster was announced. I have been waiting patiently since then to get my revenge. Perhaps a new platform will exorcise my demons? However, I'm playing it on my PC this time so a system-level crash will have a much bigger impact. I won't lie, I'm pretty worried about that.

Over the last week, I've been slowly walking through my 13th or so playthrough of Suikoden 1, getting all 108 characters. The entire reason of doing this is to import my save into Suikoden 2. I finished that late last night.

The decades-long plight to defeat Luca Blight continues tonight.

Tag

Wow. Here I thought something just didn't vibe right when you brought it up. Surely the remaster will be immune to crashes and such!

tag, hoping you get to finally experience this masterpiece in full

transience posted...

The decades-long plight to defeat Luca Blight continues tonight.

What an absolute bar

I have a similar story with Tales of Symphonia, although not as many attempts. The first time my friend brought it to school to let me borrow it but he put it in his backpack without a case and it broke into about 10 pieces (This was like 2004ish and we were like 12, but still...) Then I finally played it in 2018 but my PS3 died and I lost my save.

anyway I wish I could follow along but I have yet to play any Suikoden games. Plan on picking up the remaster eventually. God speed and I hope it doesn't destroy your PC

Tag

MZero posted...

I have a similar story with Tales of Symphonia, although not as many attempts. The first time my friend brought it to school to let me borrow it but he put it in his backpack without a case and it broke into about 10 pieces (This was like 2004ish and we were like 12, but still...) Then I finally played it in 2018 but my PS3 died and I lost my save.

oh man that sucks. maybe you need a revenge tour too!

Leon_Silverberg posted...

Tag

yeah I recruited you two days ago, and I will do it again if you show up in S2

Good luck.

I remember it took me like four or five save files to get past Disc 2 in Final Fantasy IX due to something ridiculous happening each time to make me restart from the beginning. I remember the cherry on top being when I FINALLY made it back to the exact spot where my last save got erased, and I decided to save as soon as I reached it just be extra sure things would be okay and my friend tripped over the controller cable, knocked the Playstation to the floor, and wiped the entire Memory Card.

ouch. maybe its not just me and Suikoden 2.

I don't recall having this type of experience with a game where I had a corrupted save or whatever.

Actually, wait, this did happen with Persona Q where my 3DS stopped recognizing the cartridge, but I hadn't gotten far into the game and I wasn't really digging it anyway, so that's where my experience ended!

I'm pretty sure I've had this happen with an RPG before but I genuinely don't remember which one right now...

Good luck on finishing it this time!

Okay, I turned it on and nothing has blown up yet. (granted, I've been playing S1 on the same executable for the last couple weeks, but I'm playing into it, okay?)

I'm kind of considering putting it on easy, just to try to limit any weirdness that might happen. I know it isn't the hardest game or anything, but any thoughts?

Play on Hard. TEST THE SUIKODEN GODS! LET THEM KNOW YOU FEAR THEM NOT!

look into my eyes. you haven't seen what I've seen.

Believe me, I know. I had what we call a little brother who likes to delete save files of games because he thought it would be funny. Especially during the N64 era. He also erased my 150 pokemon Pokemon Red file.

Honestly, Hard Mode isn't really that hard. Easy mode will make you overconfident, and then you end up dying at some point to something stupid and having to reload an auto save from an hour earlier. Hard Mode will have you a little on your toes, and you'll save and keep multiple save files the way we used to before the days of Autosave.

Alright, I played through the first boss. Went with normal since I can change it later, and because god knows I've played this opening before and am familiar with Suikoden combat.

The intro to Suikoden 2 is pretty slow. The opener with the false flag attack is fun, but they don't really give you enough time with the group to really feel anything. Within 5 minutes you're off running. Anyway, it's good enough.

The part where you're captured and doing a bunch of really minor fetch quests and block pushes is pretty boring. I would like it if it was my first time though. It just plays so slow. Eventually we break out.

I like Jowy and his dynamic with Riou, but in reality I just like their unite attack. Any Suikoden 1 fan knows to use Kai to crush the game and I hope I can keep the two of them together most of the game so that this continues. I end up recruiting these three goofballs and walk through this simple mist dungeon.

So far, so good. I'm about to go meet Nanami.

I've lost multiple Skyrim save files on different systems. Not really the same though as that game is sidequest central so restarting never feels too bad.

Hope you're able to finish it this time!

My closest thing to something like this is I had a friend with Shining Force 2, and I remember him talking about how his cousin accidentally deleted his safe file. This always sounded really dumb to me how someone could do that. Well, as it turns out I bought the game later on Wii VC, and I somehow ended up doing the same thing. I'm not really even sure how I did it, was just holding down some button or something accidentally and just sped through the prompts to delete the save. Fortunately, that time it was just a second slot I created to mess around in instead of my main game, so no real damage done but still really strange it happened twice.

That is quite a story. True Holy to you!

Thankfully nothing as crazy has happened to me, though I still haven't finished FF IX to this day... and I still have it as my top FF game.

Popped by Nanami's house which is pretty entertaining. I love her sprite work! This game really nails animations in a way that the original doesn't. Her unite attack with Riou is just iconic.

We get captured a little too easily, but thankfully Fliktor are there to save us at the last minute. Rowd (is that his name?)'s portrait doesn't match what seems like a weaselly kinda guy. He looks like a strongman but acts like a midboss at best. Suikoden 1 does his archetype a little better with that dude who tags along with you and takes all the credit at the beginning of the game.

I love that Fliktor are here and that you can control them! They come with some real power and it's too bad that you can't really find anything to beat up with them. We wander back to our fortress and they let me just go wild.. which means recruiting!

Suikoden just isn't Suikoden until you can recruit. I should keep a save in each game just before the real Suikoden-ness gets going. I picked up Millie and her pet, Rikimaru by paying for his meal, and Shiro/Kinnison by rescuing a bird. Why did they join my party because I picked up a bird? Don't ask questions. There's a dude in Suikoden 1 whose entire plot is that he likes to cut off people's heads, and when you recruit him he calls you weird. That's it. Suikoden keeps on winning.

Enjoying this so far.

transience vs suikoden 2 should have been in the rivals contest

I am worried for you

transience posted...

Any Suikoden 1 fan knows to use Kai to crush the game

I'm watching a friend play 1 and it's killing me not to tell him to try kai

I started to wonder if I could do a challenge run of Suikoden 1 where I didnt recruit anybody optional, and then I was like what if I did nobody but Kai?

I don't use Kai that much. The second spell the hero gets does more damage than the unite.

Magic is OP in suikoden 1.

are you resting every 5 battles or something?

Highland attacks!

We didn't just get one town burned down, we get 3. First it's Toto, then Ryube, and then the Fliktor Fort. Each one of them is a little bit worse than the last, and we get the somewhat iconic pig scene in Ryube with Luca Blight. We even get some goofy non-Square 90s CG which is a sight to behold. I always forget that this exists - in my mind, this game is the same technological level as Suikoden 1.

Anyway, this arc does a great job at reinforcing that Luca is a Bad Guy with really no redeeming qualities at all. I don't know if he's being controlled by a rune or whatever but he seems evil on a level beyond anything in Suikoden 1. The pig scene is effective for establishing a character but it isn't exactly 'Sephiroth walking into the fire' levels of cool or anything. If anything it's a little over the top.

We then get to this game's version of war battles which is something out of Advance Wars or something, not that Advance Wars existed yet. Your mobility seems pretty terrible for a tactical kind of setup but it's only the first one so maybe it gets better. I kind of have no idea what you're supposed to do in those so far, but it seemed to mostly be a storytelling tool to show off that our fire spears are, indeed, awesome. Don't worry bro, I played Suikoden 1. I already know.

Speaking of! My favourite part of the game so far is just seeing all the Suikoden 1 references. Hey, it's Apple! Here's Flik! Remember Jowston? I hate to be so beholden to fanservice, but after so many years loving that original game, seeing some of the staples come out is always a joy. Hopefully I can grow past that and like this game on its own merits. It honestly feels like you have to play 1 in order to properly understand and appreciate 2, both for the passive references and the active understanding of what has happened in the past. Apple can't just show up and be a notable character without having any kind of understanding of who the Silverbergs are.

After the massacre, we swing by Toto and do the Rune Scene. Man, this is the most anime-ass JRPG flashback I've ever seen. It's pretty cringy. I think it's interesting that they gave Jowy the sword and Riou the shield. Jowy has a real Anakin Skywalker kind of thing going on with revenge and they set it up so well, with the girl losing her parents and then Luca being such a monster. I don't actually know how this resolves, but I do remember him backstabbing me a little bit later in the game. I assume he will become a double agent kind of character that joins up with me again at the end, but I don't know and don't tell me.

We get kicked out of Muse so I'm left to go do a treasure sidequest with this dude at the inn. Boo.

Nope, the game hasn't crashed on me yet! I just had a busy few days and haven't had a chance to suffer more.

Speaking of suffering - the Sindar Ruins. This is your standard puzzle dungeon where you have to find the right key item to put into the right slot to move forward. There's a simple water puzzle, some simple enemies and a simple boss. Honestly it isn't too bad if you've upgraded your weapons and use your main unite attack.

But I'm pretty sure this dungeon is more complicated than anything in the original Suikoden. The game I compare Suikoden 1 to the most is Chrono Trigger, as it shares that game's love for brevity and breeziness. The game is just expertly paced to keep you moving always, and you never get stuck in a dungeon for more than 5 minutes. It's basic but it keeps you going. Suikoden 2's puzzle dungeons just don't leave me feeling the same. It's not a bad thing, but it pokes at the thing I like the most about the original. Interested to see how I feel as the game gets more and more complex.

I got my entry permit and we're off to Muse.

Are you using a guide for 108 stars or just winging it?

I'm just winging it so far, but if there's something I need to know I'm all ears

Important Tip (No spoilers!): Always carry a couple of Escape Talismans on you.

There's a scene in Muse that'll lock you out of a character later if you don't finish it in time. It starts in the alley above the rune shop.

Just gonna post this directly from a guide.

Speak to Humphrey at the Inn in Highway Village. Spend the night. Leave the Inn, see a scene, and agree to help him on Mt. Rakutei.

This dude (and the guy with him) are the easiest characters in the game to miss. Had to replay the game because of them!

oh I remember doing a Humphrey sidequest with a dude my last playthrough. guess I happened to find it?

okay thanks for these tips. I'll check out Muse later today.

transience posted...

We then get to this game's version of war battles which is something out of Advance Wars or something, not that Advance Wars existed yet. Your mobility seems pretty terrible for a tactical kind of setup but it's only the first one so maybe it gets better. I kind of have no idea what you're supposed to do in those so far, but it seemed to mostly be a storytelling tool to show off that our fire spears are, indeed, awesome. Don't worry bro, I played Suikoden 1. I already know.

Advance Wars existed in Japan as Famicom Wars back then. The pre-Advance games were all pretty basic though; it was along the lines of if Advance Wars only had the War Room.

The TBS battles in Suikoden II aren't well designed, and most of the time they're just for storytelling as you said. But they're still fun in their own way. Plus not many games can say they have 3 battle systems (normal, TBS, and duels).

yeah, Im early but I think I prefer the war battles of S1 just for their simplicity. there wasnt really much to them but it was fun to see your team power up over time.

now you guys have me all paranoid. I'm safe to leave Muse, right?

to be honest, I don't feel like I need to find all 108 on my first go.. but at the same time, if I know something is limited I'm going to try to get it. I'm mostly interested if there's something notable, like a powerful character or a notable story element.

There's an expanded ending for 108 stars, among other things. It's worth going for, though FWIW, I missed it on my first playthrough. Humphrey, his partner, and Gilbert were all characters I missed.

Did you get the character from seeing the scenes in Muse, Clive? IIRC, he's another one that's easy to miss.

I saw him but didn't get the character. did I choose the wrong option?

Okay, I popped into Muse and did some scenes. It feels good to have some kind of home base, even if it is temporary. We meet Annabelle and Jess and get a quest to go invade Highwind. It's a stupid idea given how clearly dangerous these Highwind guys are, but it moves the plot along so we go for it.

Let's just say that this sneaking mission isn't exactly Metal Gear. You get caught pretty quickly and then everyone just kinda disappears while you wander. I eventually pop in to the princess's room, have some tea (?) and then walk out only to one-shot the entire Highland army. Sure..? Jowy gets caught and we flee back to Muse, where Viktor and Flik are. Again, it's really nice to have some kind of north star in the Suikoden games so seeing these two is a welcome sight.

The scene in Muse waiting for Jowy is one of the best in the game. Dude just kind of strolls up, which kinda makes no sense but I'm keeping that unite attack for at least a little longer so I'm happy. I stop and save here for the night.

Oh, wait no. Now that I think about it, you actually get him in the next town. As long you saw the scene in Muse, that should be fine.

I checked suikosource, and don't see anything else missable-looking, so should be fine to move on.

Okay, cool, that's what I was thinking. I'll try to be more thorough as I go forward. These towns are so big with so many NPCs compared to the original!

Jowy is just a fantastic character all-around.

Looking at the Suikosource guide, this is one of the few Stars that has an important Note attached to it, so just in case:

Gilbert
Damage his unit during the 3rd major battle.
Note: This is the only chance to recruit Gilbert.

I remember Suikoden II mostly having lenient Stars though. With a bit of luck, someone could feasibly recruit them all on their first playthrough. That kinda stops being the case later on in the series.

are those battles considered difficult? I remember struggling with one but it's been years.

I don't remember them being a problem but I was also on an emulator with save states, and I also don't remember how much I abused that.

As long as you saw Clive in Muse, you're good.

Gilbert's mostly rng, since you don't have much control in that battle. It'll work out more often than not, I think. He can also permanently die, but as long as it doesn't specifically say died, you should be good.

I think all of the easily permanently missable characters have been mentioned, although there is a point of no return you need to have the 108 by, eventually. The 2nd time you have to go to Rockaxe.

okay, I did the second war battle (the one where my allies retreat on me) and we attacked Gilbert, he switched sides but then got knocked out in the battle. am I okay? I know you said the third so I assume I'm fine. he didn't say he permanently died or anything

That was the battle that you were supposed to get him in. If it didn't say he died, you should be fine.

If you got him to switch sides and it never says he died, you should be fine. IIRC, the time I didnt recruit Gilbert, I didnt damage his unit so he never switched sides.

okay, cool.

Alright, I did the climactic scenes in Muse, or more specifically the Jowy betrayal. Man, this is heavy handed. They go out of their way to show you just how shady he is as you walk back and forth, to and from the inn like 5 times. We've got shady ninjas and Jowy being evasive and even the ominous "...." several times throughout this whole thing. They even get the city-state leaders twiddling their thumbs to make sure you know it's going to end badly for Muse.

The war battle went about as bad as it can. I actually didn't move my units for the first 3ish turns because I expected there to be a "move" menu option a la FFT instead of just moving the cursor. Oh well. There isn't much to do here anyway since your units are so slow and the NPCs are so much stronger than the generic units. I need a fire spear!

Annabelle is pretty clearly the Odessa of this game and she stands up to Jowy pretty well. She's super likable. Jowy gets a portrait change that indicates that he's now a bad guy and they don't show the actual scene. He flees and I'm left to deal with this mute kid. Man, this kid better pay off someday because she has been nothing but dead weight and work so far. Jowy even wants me to take care of her when I have no relationship with this character! Jowy wants a lot and takes a lot but doesn't really offer anything in return.

Once again, I'm left fleeing a town to get to South Window. I walk into the boat town and hear the name Shu, which triggers a feeling more than an actual memory.