Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 452: Fork in the River

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean I fully recognize that it sucks, I'm just not sure where the wires get crossed and it goes from "Tinder sucks" to "men/women suck". Surely if you start out with a genuine love for the opposite sex you're not going to be radicalized into sexism by a lack of matches?? But I dunno, I struggle to understand this stuff.

edit: this was in response to Metal DK

dating apps are terrible for both sexes but for entirely different reasons.

men get lucky if even 5% of the attempts are a match and odds are good that it's a scam anyway. that's the male experience really, try a lot, get nothing, and when you do finally get a match you need to instantly verify because there's a real chance they're gonna ask for money within the next week tops. realistically you're batting 1% at best if you're a normal dude.

women get bombed with a ton of guys but only pick like 10% of them and they tend to pick the same 10%. so the pool doesn't really exist for the vast majority of dudes and women end up wondering why they only meet shitty dudes. eventually women learn to filter more and more of that and get better at it but until then, pretty shit. if it's sex, easy. if it's relationship, good luck.

no matter what app you use the gap between matching is literally close to 20:1, women:men, so nobody's happy.

Kenri posted...
Kenri posted...

I mean I fully recognize that it sucks, I'm just not sure where the wires get crossed and it goes from "Tinder sucks" to "men/women suck". Surely if you start out with a genuine love for the opposite sex you're not going to be radicalized into sexism by a lack of matches?? But I dunno, I struggle to understand this stuff.

edit: this was in response to Metal DK

The jealousy I think leads to the radicalization of young men here. Men tend to have to pay to get their profile boosted, there is a shortage of women on these apps to begin with. That alone is the start of the animosity, and in general men kind of have to do more work in the initial stages of the dating game to get the ball rolling. At least in my experience

You mean it's 20:1 men:women but yes

Metal_DK posted...

The jealousy I think leads to the radicalization of young men here. Men tend to have to pay to get their profile boosted, there is a shortage of women on these apps to begin with. That alone is the start of the animosity, and in general men kind of have to do more work in the initial stages of the dating game to get the ball rolling. At least in my experience

You're still digging at the surface here. Why does this situation evoke jealousy? Why does jealousy lead to radicalization and why does "a shortage of women" lead to animosity towards women? It is frustrating that men have to work more to get the ball rolling but that's a system largely invented and perpetuated by men and I'm not sure it's ever been less true than it is right now.

I'm not really expecting you to have answers to this stuff BTW. It's just something I struggle with. Like similarly, I have a masters in history and I still struggle with the "why" there too -- i.e., with research I can explain what material and social effects led to some event, but not why those material and social effects led to that event, and usually when I tried to ask my professors/advisors about that they kind of didn't even know what I was asking.

Both really.
20:1 men to women populace but when it comes to actually getting a match it flips. So most guys get nothing and most women pick the same guys. Your goal as a guy is to carve your niche as much as possible. If you don't - and most don't - you try another app, then another, and until you either get tired of scams or get lucky.

Kenri posted...

You're still digging at the surface here. Why does this situation evoke jealousy? Why does jealousy lead to radicalization and why does "a shortage of women" lead to animosity towards women? It is frustrating that men have to work more to get the ball rolling but that's a system largely invented and perpetuated by men and I'm not sure it's ever been less true than it is right now.

Dating and socializing is not really a system perpetuated by men. Women just are less interested in men as a whole than men are to women as a whole

Metal_DK posted...

Dating and socializing is not really a system perpetuated by men.

Sure it is. Maybe not currently but for thousands of years of history it has been. That's only possibly changed in the last couple decades.

Metal_DK posted...

Women just are less interested in men as a whole than men are to women as a whole

I straight up don't think this is true, except maybe in the sense that women are more likely to be bi/pan than men are.

Kenri posted...

I straight up don't think this is true, except maybe in the sense that women are more likely to be bi/pan than men are.

Men deem a lot more of their female friends as dating prospects than the other way around. They are also way more likely to be bi pan etc yes but even amongst completely hetero women.

Metal_DK posted...

Men deem a lot more of their female friends as dating prospects than the other way around.

Okay, I see what you're saying here. I don't think this means women are less interested in men than men are in women, but it does mean that women are more likely to interact with men they wouldn't date than men are to interact with women they wouldn't date.

I dunno though, I've been on both sides of the friendzone (kinda hate this term ngl) and it's just a difference in expectations. Neither party should really take it personally or let it get to them.

Agreed that you shouldn't take it personally in almost all cases. There are people that take advantage on the unrequited feelings which can be shitty, but I think most people aren't doing that.

With that said, in an absolute value sense men just deem more women as attractive. Are all those men willing to 100% commit to her? Probably not, so that's one thing right there women have to consider, but in terms of sticking the foot in the door and wanting to go out on a date? Women are less interested in men as a whole

Metal_DK posted...

I wonder if any students do things like throw frisbees or footballs at the campus open fields anymore. That was already dwindling 15 years ago

Just wanted to chime in on this since my wife works at a college (small private liberal arts school in Iowa)

She says she sees it quite a bit when the weather is nice. Students there mostly are throwing footballs and kicking a soccer ball. Also apparently there is an area where students set up a net and play volleyball a lot. She says not a lot of frisbee though.

Metal_DK posted...

With that said, in an absolute value sense men just deem more women as attractive.

100% not my experience, at least if we're talking about physical attraction specifically. I feel like tons of men are low key disgusted by women's bodies and I hardly ever see the same attitude from women*. In a subjective sense I also see way more women dating less attractive men than men dating less attractive women, but it's possible my view is just skewed there.

*Unless they're lesbians/not attracted to men at all.

That's good to hear

Edit: to maniac

Kenri posted...

100% not my experience, at least if we're talking about physical attraction specifically. I feel like tons of men are low key disgusted by women's bodies and I hardly ever see the same attitude from women*. In a subjective sense I also see way more women dating less attractive men than men dating less attractive women, but it's possible my view is just skewed there.

That doesn't really mean anything though. The girl might be attracted to that guy who you say is less conventionally attractive or something. But the point is that she still seems fewer men as attractive.

I think the real problem is many men have been raised to treat romance as a status symbol, and a lot end up going after the same "ideal" type of woman, of which there aren't actually that many.

A lot of ordinary men think they deserve models. This pressure has always been there, but I think media has only made it worse over time.

I suspect a lot of angry, lonely young men aren't actually cognizant of the number of women they themselves reject. And I'm sure they find plenty of these rejected women attractive, but have decided not attractive enough to impress others.

The last date I went on before meeting my girlfriend was with a woman who was an actress and model, and was very attractive. She was also a complete idiot, very rude to people, and overall I was embarrassed to be seen walking around in public with her.

FoolFantastic posted...

I think the real problem is many men have been raised to treat romance as a status symbol, and a lot end up going after the same "ideal" type of woman, of which there aren't actually that many.

Ya there is some truth to that, but i also think this is a product of loneliness that has skyrocketed the past 10-15 years, and definitely past 5.

FoolFantastic posted...

I think the real problem is many men have been raised to treat romance as a status symbol, and a lot end up going after the same "ideal" type of woman, of which there aren't actually that many.

Pretty much every study I've seen indicates that men are far more attracted to women on average than women are attracted to men. At least visually. It was something like, when looking at an assortment of pictures, men rated women an average of 7/10 while women rated men an average of 4/10. Men can be choosy, but i sincerely doubt it's the aggravating factor in this scenario - especially when looking at the reality of how dating apps shake out.

I think everyone here is pretty much right. College has been trending less social for years and the perceived value of a degree has significantly diminished, yet it remains a great place for social growth, especially for young men looking to meet women. The college gender split is like 60/40 women, and many of the enrolled men are isolated and withdrawn, such that any guy who merely attempts socialization will likely have a great time. I say this as someone who has taught at a university and community college for the past five years.

Dating apps are poisonous for all the reasons you guys have listed - the exception being if you absolutely know what you're getting into and accept it. I've been on Facebook dating for about four months (I chose it only because it's already integrated into Facebook so I didn't need to get any new apps). I'm on there seeking casual hookups and am upfront about my intentions. This dating app is the home of 45-year-old single mothers, and the average woman who I match with is considerably older than me and has kids. I'm younger and better educated with a more prestigious career than the average man on there, and I'm probably matching at about a 1/50 clip with said single mothers. I don't mind and acknowledge it as a reality of dating apps, and it's actually led to some fun flings so I have no room for complaints, but it's easy to see how this could be emotionally crippling for the average person.

All that aside, for guys who are struggling finding any sort of socialization and healthy, positive interactions with women, I have the secret (I found it last year and it has improved just about every facet of my life): actually take classes at the gym. Gym culture is huge among Gen Z, but most guys just lift weights in isolation. The classes are actually social and the gender split is sometimes as lopsided for women as a midnight game launch might be for men. I've been the only man in yoga classes sometimes. Feels fucking amazing.

As someone who has been consistently doing yoga for ten years, I really want to dispel this idea that it's a good place to meet women. It's not. In all that time, I can only think of one time I went out with a girl from one of my classes, and the only reason I even knew she liked me was because she matched with me on a dating app. She literally just ignored me and always avoided eye contact so I thought she had zero interest in me. It turned out to be one of the worst dates I have ever had, as she had no conversational skills at all.

I would still recommend people try yoga and other group fitness classes, but not for the social aspect, just do it because it's helpful to have a structured class.

I dunno, I've found my classes very socially enriching. While I haven't gone on dates with the women in class, I haven't sought to. Just getting positive attention is great.

That's the thing though - do you interact with other people in these classes? Yes. Is it a good way to get dates? No.

Interacting with people - especially engaged hobbyists of the opposite sex - is often a great place to start. If the average young man truly is more depressed, socially isolated, and (perhaps) emotionally stunted than ever before, they gotta walk before they can run. Doing things like fitness classes will make it easier for them to get dates later on.

dating apps came about from the Casual Revolution of 2007

of course they're going to be bad

YoBlazer posted...

Interacting with people - especially engaged hobbyists of the opposite sex - is often a great place to start. If the average young man truly is more depressed, socially isolated, and (perhaps) emotionally stunted than ever before, they gotta walk before they can run. Doing things like fitness classes will make it easier for them to get dates later on.

I really disagree, simply on the basis that I can't think of one long-term friendship I made through yoga. It's a physical activity I enjoy, and that's all. Hell, I took a yoga class this morning and didn't talk to anyone outside of the people checking me into class.

I'll occasionally chat with people in the studio, but I have to go out of my way to do that. Nobody ever strikes up a conversation with me first (and if you're an awkward young man, this may actually make you feel lonelier).

Big_Bob, no disrespect, but have you considered that your vibes are bad?

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Big_Bob, no disrespect, but have you considered that your vibes are bad?

On our first date, my girlfriend found me so charming that she was worried I was a pickup artist. She thought I was so likeable, so funny, so much fun to talk to that she honestly could not even fathom that a guy like me would struggle to meet women to date. These days, she gets it, and it took many conversations for her to see that dating is not as easy for men as she thinks.

I have known a LOT of people who shared the same sentiment as you. They assumed there was something wrong with me, told me I needed to work on myself, told me that I must be a real asshole if I struggled with women. In the end, there was nothing wrong with me. I met a wonderful woman who understands me better than anyone else in the world, and we are now working on building the life together that we have always wanted.

I only wish there were less people in my life talking to me the way you did.

foolm0r0n posted...

It's the inflection point but you can tell me the diff between Dec 2006 and Jan 2022

Ok I meant to say Jan 2002 here. Post is very confusing as written.

Big_Bob posted...

In fact, 95% of the dates I've been on in my life were off of dating apps. All the times when I went on the least amount of dates was when I deleted the apps.

See, I've had literally 0 dates from multiple apps, but I did have 5 from college. So we're the opposite. (Actually I remembered 1 date I had but damn it was depressing, due to me mostly)

I think it's more that everyone has their own preferred way of socializing. Apps are good for some small portion, but VC capitalism is incentivized to make it seem like every human needs it. No, it should just be an option among others. Same with clubs and same with college.

Big_Bob posted...

As someone who has been consistently doing yoga for ten years, I really want to dispel this idea that it's a good place to meet women.

I mostly think this is right. Exercise classes are mostly solo activities in practice. They're still great because they're fun and healthy, but it's not inherently social. At best you'll get a date through sheer luck and exposure.

But some exercise like dance, climbing, parkour, running groups are much more social. People intentionally do those to be social and will talk or date anyone in there.

foolm0r0n posted...

But some exercise like dance, climbing, parkour, running groups are much more social. People intentionally do those to be social and will talk or date anyone in there.

I tried these things when I was single. They didn't work. Well, kind of. I did get a date from a dance class (and I fucked the date up, but that's on me), but for the most part women didn't go there to meet guys. I even remember the instructor often telling attendees to encourage their female friends to come because there weren't enough women for the guys to dance with. Turns out that you drive women away when every guy there is just trying to find women to date.

Honestly, I'd tell my younger self to just do what he liked doing and don't bother "putting himself out there". Now that I'm in a relationship, when we go out, we are doing things we actually enjoy. We walk around malls, go to the zoo and museums, watch movies, check out local restaurants, explore nature preserves. We do it at our own pace, call it quits when we want, then cook dinner and play video games. It's so much more preferable than going out to some activity I don't like in the hopes that I'll meet someone else who ALSO never wants to do that thing again.

No matter what you do, it's obvious when you're just doing it for the women, and you will fail. The point is to do something you like AND is also social, which definitely exists.

I know the term "politics" goes hand in hand with incel lately, but what does this have to do with the current "fuck the red states in particular" counter-tariffs and trade war?

I see that Orangeman is now threatening the UK too.

I do think the dating game and socializing in general (or lack thereof) is a massive cause for an increase in alt right politics, especially amongst the younger crowd (under 35 or so)

Isquen posted...

I know the term "politics" goes hand in hand with incel lately, but what does this have to do with the current "fuck the red states in particular" counter-tariffs and trade war?

Well you see, disaffected men are pretty much the entire reason that's happening right now.

This certainly went...directions.

The alt right rose via being able to amplify ideas with new forms of media and creating echo chambers.

From that they've curated a base using our established culture, making politics seem like backing a sports team more than individual ideas or actually caring about the direction.

Tbf that last one has kinda always been there.

Honestly I always read that as 2002.

Isquen posted...

I see that Orangeman is now threatening the UK too.

Looks like he is employing a very obvious strategy. Threaten the UK with tariffs to keep it out of the EUs trade orbit, and then when they stay out from there place tariffs on them anyway for a spurious reason. Labour would have to be stupid to fall for it. Just stay quiet and continue to realign with the EU while making some vague placating noises at Trump, do not trust him.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/12075344.jpg

cool cool cool cool cool

Go Canada

I don't see how antagonizing our closest ally in order to tank our own economy (and the global stock market) is good for anyone, Trump included.

But yeah, good on Canada for no folding. It's just going to be a long *checks notes* 1,447 days.

The way I hear it theyre hoping to crash everything they can in the US so the oligarchy can buy it all up cheap

FFDragon posted...

I don't see how antagonizing our closest ally in order to tank our own economy (and the global stock market) is good for anyone, Trump included.

How have you been in this topic so long and don't understand even the basics of accelerationism, which is the philosophy your country is currently operating under? At some point you have to admit you're deliberately being ignorant

where's the red line before we turn into 1780s france

is there one?

would we all just be exterminated before we got a chance?

i just see this current trajectory as being sustainable even in the short term

FFDragon posted...

where's the red line before we turn into 1780s france

is there one?

would we all just be exterminated before we got a chance?

i just see this current trajectory as being sustainable even in the short term

Our populace has been pretty much pacified. Little to more likely no chance. Half the country is just ducking their heads and half the country thinks they are winning.

As far as I can tell the Democrats did precisely two things wrong: win three of the previous four elections and be in power during a global anti-incumbent wave.

If people disconnect from the nation and focus on the self and local community, then things might get better after they get worse. But if people fully disconnect, because they have been convinced over decades that national politics is the only reality, then we're done and China or other BRICS will increasingly lead the world.

Either way, certain industries that are particularly national will be stunted no matter what: high-powered science (particles, astronomy, virology, AI), long-distance transportation, emergency/disaster funding. And some national industries will of course be even further inflated: military, medical, banking.

While I am fairly sure Ive said it before it does bear repeating, the worlds biggest military and nuclear power descending into civil war would be a bad thing for the world. So lets hope that is not necessary.

FFDragon posted...

where's the red line before we turn into 1780s france

You'd probably need an economic collapse to happen. Not like the late 00's financial crisis or even the Great Depression, something even worse. Unless the majority of the country is seriously worried about starving to death, it's not happening.