Board 8 > What four games are on the Metroidvanias Mount Rushmore?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Thorn posted...

So it's been a really long time since I've seen Legends of the Hidden Temple so I could definitely be wrong here but there weren't really any puzzles that required you to grab something from another room, were there? Like all the parts of the silver monkey were in that one room - you didn't have to like grab one in the swamp and then make your way back up there, did you?

There was the extra pendant that you could complete but that's just getting an extra life if the guards caught you, not really an exploration/unlock thing.

So I feel like it shouldn't count as a Metroidvania.

This is a good argument, but about the pendant: were there times that you had to have the pendant to win? I feel like you would not normally require it, but given the different lay-outs episode to episode that could be the case sometimes.

Just going off of memory here anyway. If so, that would make it occasionally like a Metroidvania.

Super Metroid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Ori and the Blind Forest
Cave Story

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night

I gotta think about it but I am really leaning to just put 4 castlevanias

Super Metroid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Cave Story
Hollow Knight

Hollow Knight
Ori and the Blind Forest
Guacamelee!
Metroid Prime

Yesmar_ posted...

Super Metroid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Cave Story
Hollow Knight

This is pretty clearly the correct answer.

Super Metroid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Metroid Prime
Hollow Knight

Nominate Fictional Soldiers
Nominate Fictional Doctors
Nominate Fictional Merchants
Nominate Fictional Entertainers
Nominate Fictional Pilots

I really liked the fictional teachers topic!

Super Metroid
Metroid Prime
Castlevania: SOTN

Sometime this weekend I am going to do the rest of the June schedule, if anyone has any last minute noms or seconds please drop them soon

Super Metroid
Castlevania: SotN
Hollow Knight
Cave Story

First 3 are indisputable. The fourth is a flex choice, but in terms of its importance in rebooting the genre -- even though I know there are many who say CS isn't technically a metroidvania -- and kickstarting the contemporary indie scene, it's probably the most Rushmore-worthy.

HM to Ori, Metroid Prime, and to many not-quite-Metroidvanias that people will inevitably try to include in the discussion like Dark Souls.

SM and C:SotN are my two indisputables.

I just don't like Hollow Knight as much as others, though at least I get why it's getting the support that it is here. MP is close to indisputable, but between its 3D nature and being a second Metroid rep I see space to dispute it some there.

Speaking of 3D Metroidvanias...The Witness works as one if you treat knowledge as power-ups.

HaRRicH posted...

This is a good argument, but about the pendant: were there times that you had to have the pendant to win? I feel like you would not normally require it, but given the different lay-outs episode to episode that could be the case sometimes.

I feel like if you don't need to revisit previous areas, it's not a Metroidvania, so I don't think Legends of the Hidden Temple qualifies.

And it was possible to win without needing the pendant. You just had to get lucky.

Super Metroid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Hollow Knight
Cave Story

So I want to ask a question and then throw out some thoughts. People who voted Metroid Prime, what games would you say clearly follow in its footsteps, not counting its sequels? I don't doubt its influence, it just struck me that I'm struggling to think of a game that is 3d exploration and doesn't feel more influenced by the collectathon or open world genres aside from the Arkham games.

Additionally, I just wanna throw this out: Hollow Knight feels like an obvious inclusion to me, but not because it was popular or is a contender for best modern metroidvania. I feel like it belongs because it basically codified a new path for the genre. In SM and SotN, enemy encounters are speedbumps. The challenge is navigating the environment. In Hollow Knight, the challenge comes primarily from the opposing force. Rather than bosses being just narrative climactic setpieces, they are also the heights of the game's systems, where its full depth is revealed, and I think it's fascinating that that was enough to diverge so hard from its predecessors. If you had to refer to titles with HK's metroidvania style as a collective (like Prince of Persia Lost Crown or Afterimage), what would you call them? Warrior Metroidvanias? Something else?

KanzarisKelshen posted...

People who voted Metroid Prime, what games would you say clearly follow in its footsteps, not counting its sequels? I don't doubt its influence, it just struck me that I'm struggling to think of a game that is 3d exploration and doesn't feel more influenced by the collectathon or open world genres aside from the Arkham games.

This isn't a perfect answer to your larger point about industry influence, but I'll note Metroid Prime did get a well-received trilogy and remaster while hopes are high for a fourth game. Coincidentally, all of my nominations have sequels or other games in their own series to pursue similar gameplay of some sort which helps establish their place in the genre.

(Hollow Knight to its credit will one day too, and I look forward to Silksong despite my issues with the original)

I don't know the 3D-Metroidvania genre well enough to speak to other games similar to MP, but it has firmly landed its own place in gaming in the meanwhile and its appeal is not so different from 2D-Metroidvanias for me to think it should go into a different genre. Maybe FPS? But then that gets into questions like is Portal an FPS and is Braid a platformer. MP uses FPS mechanics to explore gameplay that appeals to Metroidvania fans much like Portal and Braid use FPS/platformer mechanics to explore gameplay that appeals to puzzle fans.

EDIT: shit, just noticed you said not including sequels. My bad on those parts.

Metroid Prime's influence is honestly on games that branched from the genre and became their own, like Souls games. there really isn't much else like it, instead they opt for either more combat, more exploration, or more difficulty (technically this can be either one but becomes its own subgenre at a certain point).

a lot of Souls clones miss the mark because they don't understand what came before it and that i think is where MP shines. it broke down how you can do 3D action adventure exploration in a perfect blend.

so technically its influence on the genre isn't there because it was the launching point for new ones.

To me Metroid Prime gets on here by being really good, not by influencing other games. I can name more games that influenced Prime than the other way around.

I also wouldn't really say Hollow Knight has created a "new path". Most combat-heavy Metroidvanias aren't trying to mimic HK, they're just trying to be 2D Dark Souls.

I don't think I agree with that Kenri. To use one of the games I mentioned as being inspired by HK, the only thing PoP Lost Crown shares with Dark Souls is you can take a sippy in combat, but HK does that too for example, and PoPLC resembles HK more on this point in that the real way you keep yourself alive in a fight is by applying relentless offensive pressure to fuel a power that gives you a chance to recover from damage or iframe through it (much like HK focus). Moreover, the combat is super kinetic and focused on dodging and using combat abilities to phase through attacks and 'retain your turn', whereas the iconic Dark Souls build either facetanked with Poise or blocked with a shield and then countered. There's influence there, but idk how direct it is.

Wanglicious posted...

Metroid Prime's influence is honestly on games that branched from the genre and became their own, like Souls games. there really isn't much else like it, instead they opt for either more combat, more exploration, or more difficulty (technically this can be either one but becomes its own subgenre at a certain point).

a lot of Souls clones miss the mark because they don't understand what came before it and that i think is where MP shines. it broke down how you can do 3D action adventure exploration in a perfect blend.

so technically its influence on the genre isn't there because it was the launching point for new ones.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Dark Souls 1 certainly has a load of metroid prime DNA. This means MP indirectly inspired one of the most important modern subgenres, which is totally Rushmore worthy!

HaRRicH posted...

This isn't a perfect answer to your larger point about industry influence, but I'll note Metroid Prime did get a well-received trilogy and remaster while hopes are high for a fourth game. Coincidentally, all of my nominations have sequels or other games in their own series to pursue similar gameplay of some sort which helps establish their place in the genre.

(Hollow Knight to its credit will one day too, and I look forward to Silksong despite my issues with the original)

I don't know the 3D-Metroidvania genre well enough to speak to other games similar to MP, but it has firmly landed its own place in gaming in the meanwhile and its appeal is not so different from 2D-Metroidvanias for me to think it should go into a different genre. Maybe FPS? But then that gets into questions like is Portal an FPS and is Braid a platformer. MP uses FPS mechanics to explore gameplay that appeals to Metroidvania fans much like Portal and Braid use FPS/platformer mechanics to explore gameplay that appeals to puzzle fans.

EDIT: shit, just noticed you said not including sequels. My bad on those parts.

I think this hits on a key point of what MP's true influence is actually. 'Using (other genre) mechanics for exploration gameplay'. Dark Souls does this with ARPG gameplay. Arkham Asylum does this with open world gameplay. It kinda makes me realize why I couldn't just name games that were 'Metroid Prime' clones. Its legacy isn't a direct playstyle, it's a design style with multi-genre appeal! Hell, aren't collectable readables/datalogs pretty much an MP invention for example?

Tbf I haven't played Lost Crown, the games I'm thinking of are e.g. Moonscars, Grime, Death's Gambit, Afterimage to an extent. Those games want to be Dark Souls sooo bad. There are clear Hollow Knight inspired games too like Lone Fungus, Haiku the Robot, and 8Doors but those don't strike me as combat-focused (but honestly I wouldn't describe HK that way either)

But we might just be seeing different influences, because to me "phase through attacks" is the iconic Dark Souls combat ability. I almost never see people talk about heavy armor builds in those games (though it's what I prefer)

Really? I thought the iconic DS build was giant dad/havel gear with a zweihander. Maybe the DS diehards I hang out with have been feeding me misinformation all this time lmao

Fast roll enjoyers might just be a loud minority I guess. I haven't really immersed myself in the Souls community ever so I really can't (or shouldn't) speak from authority on what's iconic. But when someone says a game "has combat like Dark Souls" I immediately assume that means stamina bar + dodge roll with i-frames + healing flasks.

Sword & Board with heavy armor is the training wheels set for Souls games. You switch to faster builds as you get better because that's actually fun. It's why the evolution of the genre has traditionally been about ways to de-prioritize armor and blocking. See: Bloodborne, Sekiro.

Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night

Xanadu: Dragon Slayer II (Introduced the gameplay)
Metroid (Introduced the Metroid)
Castlevania II: Simon's Quest (Introduced the vania)
Super Metroid (Peak)

Metroid
Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest
Super Metroid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night

jcgamer107 posted...

Super Metroid
Castlevania
TMNT 3: Radical Rescue

......will have to think of a 4th

I guess I will go with Metroid Prime as my 4th - was trying to include another franchise but no other game beats Prime I don't think. Hollow Knight seems fine enough but never got into it.