Current Events > Beto O'Rourke endorses "Uncommitted" in Michigan's Democratic primary.

(+) Yeah! (+)

ButteryMales posted...

Am I free to vote uncommitted and not for Biden then?

???????????

ButteryMales posted...

Am I free to vote uncommitted and not for Biden then?

No ill tell biden to arrest you

ButteryMales posted...

I thought we agreed Trump committed insurrection? It would be sane, ethical, and legal for Biden to go after Trump and leave Jullian Assange alone.

I haven't closely followed the proceedings, but IIRC the extent of Trump's involvement remains unsettled. Whether it was general rhetoric in favor of insurrection, or directly partaking in the attack (like providing weapons or material support).

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Thats faulty logic. Any system will fail if one half of it is intentionally trying to destroy it, which is what republicans are doing. You also havent been paying attention if you think all of this started with Trump.

So the system works only if "both sides" one together and play ball?

Thats just reaching the same conclusion I already said bit with extra steps.

Trump simply went fully mask off and said what every conservative was already thinking. Theyve been trying to create a haven for white christians for a long time, and Trump winning this basically ensures it will be instituted.

Again, if you think its that simple; idk why you think beating Trump THIS TIME will make the difference and we won't be back to square one next time. You're basicslly delaying the onset of a problem that isnt going away and that you have no solution for.

Project 2025 should terrify you. This isnt a broke 75 year old man singlehandedly breaking the system in half, its a highly concentrated group effort that uses Trump as the launchpad.

Im not terrified of hypotheticals, and that isn't the point of what I'm saying.

If it isn't project 2025 this time, its going to be project 2029 next time. Then project 2033. Becayse the reality is, this doesn't end with Trump, and you still have no actual solution, so basically your strategy is keep guiltingy ppl into supporting whoever the dems put up by fear mongering. With this framework the dems have zero incentive to provide better candidates.

Where does it end?

Toonstrack posted...

So the system works only if "both sides" one together and play ball?

Thats just reaching the same conclusion I already said bit with extra steps.

Again, if you think its that simple; idk why you think beating Trump THIS TIME will make the difference and we won't be back to square one next time. You're basicslly delaying the onset of a problem that isnt going away and that you have no solution for.

Im not terrified of hypotheticals, and that isn't the point of what I'm saying.

If it isn't project 2025 this time, its going to be project 2029 next time. Then project 2033. Becayse the reality is, this doesn't end with Trump, and you still have no actual solution, so basically your strategy is keep guiltily ppl into supporting whoever the dems put up by fear mongering. With this framework the dems have zero incentive to provide better candidates.

Where does it end?

Yeah i dont have a solution to ending the fascism present in the republican party. I will always vote against it, as every rational person should. Are you saying its fear mongering to point out that the republicans become more fascist every election?

Again, what system WOULDNT fail if one side just decides to stop following the rules and abiding by the structure of said system?

It does beg the question of what can be done. Fighting fire with fire isn't an option. (ACTUALLY oppressing and censoring the right would validate their victim complex, they already believe they're being "censored".)

Wait, you're really having second thoughts about screaming project 2025 at everyone?

ButteryMales posted...

Wait, you're really having second thoughts about screaming project 2025 at everyone?

Your actively downplaying project 2025 at this point lmao

Really hope nobody here is stupid enough to buy your shit

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Your actively downplaying project 2025 at this point lmao

Really hope nobody here is stupid enough to buy your shit

What did I do different than Toonstrack?

ButteryMales posted...

Wait, you're really having second thoughts about screaming project 2025 at everyone?

No. Quite the opposite. I'm placing it front and center, exposing it for the horror it is. So nobody can deny the dystopian future its proponents envision.

mistymermaid posted...

No. Quite the opposite. I'm placing it front and center, exposing it for the horror it is. So nobody can deny the dystopian future its proponents envision.

mistymermaid posted...

It does beg the question of what can be done.

Just keep wasting your time. If it's not project 2025 then you'll have to scream project 2029 ect.

I've been screaming about the Southern Strategy for a long time.

ButteryMales posted...

Just keep wasting your time. If it's not project 2025 then you'll have to scream project 2029 ect.

I've been screaming about the Southern Strategy for a long time.

Being against fascism is not a waste of time.

mistymermaid posted...

Being against fascism is not a waste of time.

Thank you for the encouragement.

ButteryMales posted...

Thank you for the encouragement.

Anyway. Recent discussion did bring up a crucial detail. As the status quo stands, repeating the same shit every election cycle works in the GOP's favor. Republicans benefit from tiring voters out, making Democrats look 'ineffectual' at curbing fascism.

Downplaying January 6th now. But totally not a hardcore maga trumper. Just a concerned Democrat.

They still going

Blue MAGA is strong in this topic.

ButteryMales posted...

Just keep wasting your time. If it's not project 2025 then you'll have to scream project 2029 ect.

I've been screaming about the Southern Strategy for a long time.

This is not a one-off ffs. It's an ongoing effort to oppose fascism and chuddery.

Starks posted...

This is not a one-off ffs. It's an ongoing effort to oppose fascism and chuddery.

I really dont understand why multiple people here keep saying itll just become project 2029 if Trump loses. Is the argument that we might as well just let it happen now or something?

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I really dont understand why multiple people here keep saying itll just become project 2029 if Trump loses. Is the argument that we might as well just let it happen now or something?

A lot of them want it to happen.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

Is the argument that we might as well just let it happen now or something?

A lot of them are tankies and/or accelerationists so yea...

That and some are just MAGAs trying to concern troll you about dems.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I really dont understand why multiple people here keep saying itll just become project 2029 if Trump loses. Is the argument that we might as well just let it happen now or something?

No, the argument is that trying to guilt people into voting Biden JUST BECAUSE "they're totally gonna take over this time guys" is:

1. Not incenticizing dems to provide better candidates but confirms to them that they can run anyone with zero actual scrutiny under the impression their voters base will fall in line regardless(more on that later)

2. It doesn't actually achieve what you want to adhcueve because the movment Trump is riding on isnt going to end with this presidential loss

3 the above two ensures this will continue ad infinitum with two weak candidates, one being fascism lite and the other being NOT that

4. It downplays the system that the country runs for of under the notion that its easily usurped and destroyed, while simultaneously arguing that if we continue to uphold that system things will magically get better somehow

5. It demonizes people with similar sentiments but different methods, and creates nor proposes real solutions for sn ongoing issue, it just keeps thing stagnant. And not wanting stagnation isn't the same thing as beifn accelerationist.

And on that first point, that's exactly what the republican run on currently. They believe their voter base is going to turn out regardless to fight the liberal agenda/evil dems/ etc. And for a portion of them they are right, but I dont know if thsts nearly large enough a portion to win elections.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I really dont understand why multiple people here keep saying itll just become project 2029 if Trump loses. Is the argument that we might as well just let it happen now or something?

The point is to ask when we actually get to pressure Dems into nominating a non-corporate non-warmongering candidate. There's always going to be a potential fascist on the other side.

SecretBase posted...

The point is to ask when we actually get to pressure Dems into nominating a non-corporate non-warmongering candidate. There's always going to be a potential fascist on the other side.

What candidate that exists fulfills your requirements?

SecretBase posted...

The point is to ask when we actually get to pressure Dems into nominating a non-corporate non-warmongering candidate.

Whats the point of getting dems to nominate a better candidate if there aren't elections anymore?

Shadow_Don posted...

Whats the point of getting dems to nominate a better candidate if there aren't elections anymore?

There are still going to be elections lmao

If you actually think its this easy to remove elections from our country then they deserved to go, because they were built on sand anyway and we need a full upheaval.

Toonstrack posted...

There are still going to be elections lmao

If you actually think its this easy to remove elections from our country then they deserved to go, because they were built on sand anyway and we need a full upheaval.

I dont understand your thought process being if something can be broken by people who are trying their hardest to break it then its bad

Any democracy can be destroyed if a dictator takes power by subverting the rules and balances of the system. That doesnt mean democracy is an inherently bad thing.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

I dont understand your thought process being if something can be broken by people who are trying their hardest to break it then its bad

If a political minority led by a guy who barely knows politics is able to get enough votes to win the office, then remove votes entirely, then yes the voting system is broken and needs replaced.

When something doesn't work, you dont keep using that thing and hope that no one flips the table again. Because someone always will try.

Any democracy can be destroyed if a dictator takes power by subverting the rules and balances of the system. That doesnt mean democracy is an inherently bad thing.

But your solution to this dictator is to use the same voting system that you are saying he both needs to achieve power, but also will destroy once he gets that power. Its not consistent logic.

"Trump will remove elections and fair voting in this country if he gets the power to by means of elections and fair voting. We can stop him using elections and by voting!"

If Trump believes he could take power outside of the electoral system he wouldn't be trying to take power using the electoral system.

Toonstrack posted...

If a political minority led by a guy who barely knows politics is able to get enough votes to win the office, then remove votes entirely, then yes the voting system is broken and needs replaced.

When something doesn't work, you dont keep using that thing and hope that no one flips the table again. Because someone always will try.

But your solution to this dictator is to use the same voting system that you are saying he both needs to achieve power, but also will destroy once he gets that power. Its not consistent logic.

"Trump will remove elections and fair voting in this country if he gets the power to by means of elections and fair voting. We can stop him using elections and by voting!"

If Trump believes he could take power outside of the electoral system he wouldn't be trying to take power using the electoral system.

How is it contradictory for someone to gain power through the system and then destroy it once theyre in power? Thats quite literally happened throughout the world many times.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

How is it contradictory for someone to gain power through the system and then destroy it once theyre in power? Thats quite literally happened throughout the world many times.

That means that system was susceptible and needed improvements and/or protections to survive the process that it clearly didn't have.

Toonstrack posted...

That means that system was susceptible and needed improvements and/or protections to survive the process that it clearly didn't have.

And that's not going to addressed by throwing in the towel, letting America become a theocratic white ethnostate. Using every political process available to impede Republicans is the only just way.

mistymermaid posted...

And that's not going to addressed by throwing in the towel, letting America become a theocratic white ethnostate. Using every political process available to impede Republicans is the only just way.

You're giving Donald Trump way, way too much credit if you think he can achieve that off of one election.

And if every election becomes about this, then that's an even worse situation to he in becomes dems can just run anyone and you'll all say "well guys gotta vote for him because we have a white ethnostate otherwise"

Democracy isn't just about being not fascism. It's about accountability, for the candidates who get chosen and the ones who follow. You are removing the accountability from the equation, when subverts the democracy of the system. When we get a bad candidate, we as the people should be able to voice that and that voice is primarily represented by votes.

You see where I'm going with this?

Toonstrack posted...

You're giving Donald Trump way, way too much credit if you think he can achieve that off of one election.

And if every election becomes about this, then that's an even worse situation to he in becomes dems can just run anyone and you'll all say "well guys gotta vote for him because we have a white ethnostate otherwise"

Democracy isn't just about being not fascism. It's about accountability, for the candidates who get chosen and the ones who follow. You are removing the accountability from the equation, when subverts the democracy of the system. When we get a bad candidate, we as the people should be able to voice that and that voice is primarily represented by votes.

You see where I'm going with this?

What you dont understand is that Trump isnt doing anything singlehandedly, and its not one election that is the reason for all this if he wins. He isnt starting from 0 if he wins this election.

Project 2025 is the culmination of plans republicans have had for a long ass time, they just finally have everything they need to make it happen. Distrust in the election system, a conservative supreme court, a cult-like devotion to Trump, and then flooding the government with people loyal to trump and the GOP agenda. Downplaying the threat is not a chance im willing to take.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

What you dont understand is that Trump isnt doing anything singlehandedly, and its not one election that is the reason for all this if he wins. He isnt starting from 0 if he wins this election.

Ok and the next Trump won't be from zero next election or the one after that.

This problem doesn't have a solution, the other party isn't going to magically get Thanos snapped out of existence.

The problem is you're putting the pressure on everyone else, rather than pressuring the dems to run better candidates. Thats not how democracy works.

Project 2025 is the culmination of plans republicans have had for a long ass time, they just finally have everything they need to make it happen. Distrust in the election system, a conservative supreme court, a cult-like devotion to Trump, and then flooding the government with people loyal to trump and the GOP agenda. Downplaying the threat is not a chance im willing to take.

None of that is going away, and when trumps gone there will be another just like him. The problem is if you keep demanding that ppl vote for milquetoast candidates AGAINST these people then were going to repeatedly go back to square one every few years.

Something has to give

Toonstrack posted...

Ok and the next Trump won't be from zero next election or the one after that.

This problem doesn't have a solution, the other party isn't going to magically get Thanos snapped out of existence.

The problem is you're putting the pressure on everyone else, rather than pressuring the dems to run better candidates. Thats not how democracy works.

None of that is going away, and when trumps gone there will be another just like him. The problem is if you keep demanding that ppl vote for milquetoast candidates AGAINST these people then were going to repeatedly go back to square one every few years.

Something has to give

The pressure should be against republicans to run candidates that arent openly fascist. Youre ONLY putting pressure on dem candidates to be better. While id like better dems obviously, were not in a position where we can let republicans win as it is.

"Well yeah, they've told you exactly what they plan to do (illegal shit) and how they plan to do it (illegally) the second they get into office, but Biden would have been a senior in high school when Trump was a senior so it's basically even."

Also:

"Yeah, but if you vote against the fascists now they might try again later, so there's no real point."

Fucking useless.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

The pressure should be against republicans to run candidates that arent openly fascist.

We cannot pressure Republicans when Republicans don't care about our vote. It's Democrats who complain when people don't vote for them.

SecretBase posted...

We cannot pressure Republicans when Republicans don't care about our vote. It's Democrats who complain when people don't vote for them.

Yeah youre right Republicans just try to overthrow the government when people dont vote for them. But im sure they dont care.

You don't need votes if you're overthrowing the government.

SecretBase posted...

You don't need votes if you're overthrowing the government.

So you agree that we need to vote democrat. Cool.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

The pressure should be against republicans to run candidates that arent openly fascist.

They can run them all that like, those candidates aren't going to win tho. You know it, I know it, they know it.

They've backed themselves into a corner.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

So you agree that we need to vote democrat. Cool.

No lmao.

If they don't need votes, then votes aren't going to stop them if they wanna do it enough.

Didn't stop a few crazies from trying last time either.

But I dont think every repub wants to overthrow the government. I dont even think most republicasns too, but most Republicans, given the option between a proto fascists and any dem, will clearly still pick the proto fascist option

This isn't hard.

Toonstrack posted...

No lmao.

If they don't need votes, then votes aren't going to stop them if they wanna do it enough.

Didn't stop a few crazies from trying last time either.

But I dont think every repub wants to overthrow the government. I dont even think most republicasns too, but most Republicans, given the option between a proto fascists and any dem, will clearly still pick the proto fascist option

This isn't hard.

Forgot to switch accounts?

Toonstrack posted...

No lmao.

If they don't need votes, then votes aren't going to stop them if they wanna do it enough.

Didn't stop a few crazies from trying last time either.

But I dont think every repub wants to overthrow the government. I dont even think most republicasns too, but most Republicans, given the option between a proto fascists and any dem, will clearly still pick the proto fascist option

This isn't hard.

I dont see how you type out this entire post, which clearly portrays republicans as fascist adjacent at best, and then say we dont need to vote democrat

Also are you SecretBase lol

ClayGuida posted...

Forgot to switch accounts?

I'm not him either. :/

SecretBase posted...

I'm not him either. :/

no lmao

more like beta o'rourke

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

The pressure should be against republicans to run candidates that arent openly fascist. Youre ONLY putting pressure on dem candidates to be better. While id like better dems obviously, were not in a position where we can let republicans win as it is.

This. The train of thought is a non starter. Dems running better candidates, whatever that means, isn't going to make republicans less fascist.