Current Events > Pro-Palestine protestors to Biden: "No cease-fire, no votes."

(+) Yeah! (+)

Strand posted...

So would you blame Biden for going against the majority who want him to call for a ceasefire, losing some of their votes, letting Trump win, and destroying democracy? Because so far it sounds like you would blame the voters he lost.

The majority may want him to push for a ceasefire, but that doesn't mean the majority are willing to withhold their vote over it.

1337toothbrush posted...

Voter turnout in primaries is even lower than the general election. So clearly something is preventing people from voting in primaries even more than the general.

People not voting is exercising their right to not have to vote. You're giving an out to democrats who should be working to appeal for votes. Literally, that's the only job of a politician on the campaign trail, and democrats fail at it. Stop giving them outs.

Also, republicans are holding a loaded gun to our heads and democrats helped them load it:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-says-us-needs-strong-republican-party-1779854
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Well you know what? When people want to vote to kill themselves, I stop respecting their choices.

You're not wrong that the Democrats don't really care, but if that's the case, threatening to kill yourself if they don't change right now isn't going to fix anything. It's just signing our death warrants. But that's okay to you because technically it's the Democrats' fault that we died.

Strand posted...

So would you blame Biden for going against the majority who want him to call for a ceasefire, losing some of their votes, letting Trump win, and destroying democracy? Because so far it sounds like you would blame the voters he lost.

I would blame Biden and the voters.

I don't have a direct line to the WH so the best I'm left with is trying to convince voters.

legendary_zell posted...

You know the left would be excommunicated and blamed for the fall of the Republic if they tried to primary Biden over Palestine or anything else. It happens everytime an establishment Democrat is primaried over ideology/lack of representativeness vs corruption or health issues or something.

That doesn't matter. If you can't get Biden, get someone else. Once Democrats start seeing more local / state level politicians losing because of Pro Israel stances, they'll change. The Republicans have already done this on their side with things like election denial. How republican officials, even long standing well connected and well respected ones like Liz Cheney have lost their seats because they refused to endorse election denial.

Your problem is you want Biden to snap his fingers and fix shit overnight and that's just not how political change happens. The civil rights movement didn't start and end with the one MLK Jr speech. It was a battle over 100 years in the making and in many ways still going on.

Besides, what will you say when Biden calls for a ceasefire and Netanyahu predictably tells him to fuck off? Invade Israel?

Tyranthraxus posted...

Besides, what will you say when Biden calls for a ceasefire and Netanyahu predictably tells him to fuck off? Invade Israel?

Cutting off blood money to Israel would be enough personally, but don't get me excited

Doe posted...

Cutting off blood money to Israel would be enough personally, but don't get me excited

And you're content with Trump and the GOP taking over America if Biden doesn't finally break the cycle of bipartisan blind support of Israel?

Doe posted...

Cutting off blood money to Israel would be enough personally, but don't get me excited

Hezbollah and Iran invade Israel. WW3 ensues.

Online Progressives: "problem solved!"

hockeybub89 posted...

And you're content with Trump and the GOP taking over America if Biden doesn't finally break the cycle of bipartisan blind support of Israel?

No.

They think they can twitter complain their way out of the full blown fascist theocracy when it finally happens in the US.

Shadow_Don posted...

I would blame Biden and the voters.

I don't have a direct line to the WH so the best I'm left with is trying to convince voters.

And by doing so, you're contributing to political alienation and low turnout.

Shadow_Don posted...

No.

They think they can twitter complain their way out of the full blown fascist theocracy when it finally happens in the US.

I'm sure you'll be extra smug on twitter about how your strategy of insulting and shaming people into voting didn't work.

Strand posted...

And by doing so, you're contributing to political alienation and low turnout.

I suspect the kind of person who says they're not voting against a fascist theocracy because liberals were mean to them is the kind of person who wasn't going to vote anyway.

Shadow_Don posted...

Hezbollah and Iran invade Israel. WW3 ensues.

Online Progressives: "problem solved!"

Oh at last I am enlightened, Biden is enabling the ethnic cleansing because of his startling future sight to prevent WW3! What a hero carrying the burdens and scrutiny of the world on his back like that...

Didn't expect you to swerve from "There's nothing voters can do so get in line" to "US policy on the matter is actually the right choice"

hockeybub89 posted...

And you're content with Trump and the GOP taking over America if Biden doesn't finally break the cycle of bipartisan blind support of Israel?

No, I won't be content until past when the US electoral system is dismantled. But in the meantime, I'll vote Dems for 2024. I just think you all should stop throwing all your anger at people like Arab Americans with family members in Gaza for whom this issue is a make it or break it thing, and instead focus that anger on the Dems.

The way you guys talk about US politics ITT it's a wonder how any change has ever been effected

darkace77450 posted...

because liberals were mean to them is the kind of person who wasn't going to vote anyway.

This seems to be where we're fundamentally misaligned because you view an ethnic cleansing powered by US taxpayer dollars as equivalent to Hillary's proposed corporate tax rate being too low or something. Like you clearly do not appreciate the gravity or time sensitivity that this issue has for some Americans. There's not gonna be a Gaza in 2025 at this rate

Strand posted...

And by doing so, you're contributing to political alienation and low turnout.

What the hell? Trying to talk to and debate with voters is why there is low voter turnout? Insane.

1337toothbrush posted...

I'm sure you'll be extra smug on twitter about how your strategy of insulting and shaming people into voting didn't work.

Nope. Dont have twitter anymore. Its a platform for mostly nazi freaks.

But yea keep pretending you arent insulting or engaging in voter shaming instead of talking to people knowing that you need to win from the minority position. Im sure that will get a progressive candidate next time.

Shadow_Don posted...

Hezbollah and Iran invade Israel. WW3 ensues.

Online Progressives: "problem solved!"

Don't make this into a debate about Democracy if the real issue is that you just support Biden's current blank check policy towards Israel.

Tyranthraxus posted...

That doesn't matter. If you can't get Biden, get someone else. Once Democrats start seeing more local / state level politicians losing because of Pro Israel stances, they'll change. The Republicans have already done this on their side with things like election denial. How republican officials, even long standing well connected and well respected ones like Liz Cheney have lost their seats because they refused to endorse election denial.

Your problem is you want Biden to snap his fingers and fix shit overnight and that's just not how political change happens. The civil rights movement didn't start and end with the one MLK Jr speech. It was a battle over 100 years in the making and in many ways still going on.

Besides, what will you say when Biden calls for a ceasefire and Netanyahu predictably tells him to fuck off? Invade Israel?

The same dynamic happens even at the lower levels, it's not just a Presidential thing. The stakes are just higher and there's more attention at the Presidential level. Republicans do what they do because they are unafraid to fight for what they want and because they aren't afraid to vote for candidates that give them that, whether electable or not. That's exactly what we're being told not to do.

Another thing is that as these are matters of foreign policy, not domestic issues, Biden really can snap his fingers and stop the flow of aid or publicly pressure for a ceasefire, combined with allowing UN resolutions on the subject to proceed unblocked. And this is a matter of immediate life or death, lives are being taken, homes are being destroyed, and room is being made for the permanent destruction and settlement of Gaza as we speak, it's not something a long term movement addresses, it's by nature an immediate demand.

Biden was elected in large part on his supposed fundamental decency, especially in comparison to Trump. Supporting Israel's actions undermines that and a public statement that they've gone too far and that he's not going to help them do so anymore would be enough to secure wavering votes. It would restore that cornerstone of his argument.

Doe posted...

The way you guys talk about US politics ITT it's a wonder how any change has ever been effected

Mostly through direct action that would be considered too radical here.

Shadow_Don posted...

What the hell? Trying to talk to and debate with voters is why there is low voter turnout? Insane.

By specifically arguing that Biden doesn't need to appeal to the majority who want a ceasefire because he only needs to be better than Trump, you're exacerbating the sense of political alienation.

Doe posted...

Didn't expect you to swerve from "There's nothing voters can do so get in line" to "US policy on the matter is actually the right choice"

Don't misunderstand, absolutely there is a decision the voters can make. It's just that the choice you, and the people I'm arguing with, want to make is far more devastating for the people actually suffering from this conflict.

And I said Biden should not allow Israel to do a genocide. That's different from supporting Israel in general in the aftermath of a horrifying terror attack and in response to the potential of the conflict greatly expanding to include Hezbollah and Iran.

It would seem that there are only two ways to save America from the Republicans and the Establishment Democrats. People are too dumb/apathetic/indoctrinated/impatient to do it the non violent way, so that only leaves the other option. Of course, they won't use that option until well after fascism wins.

Strand posted...

By specifically arguing that Biden doesn't need to appeal to the majority who want a ceasefire because he only needs to be better than Trump, you're exacerbating the sense of political alienation.

He does, thats why I said it would also be his fault if we lose 2024.

But me telling people they are fucking morons for not voting in 2024 should not exacerbate the alienation of progressives. If thats the case then progressives are fucking pathetic cowards.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


We absolutely should, but, unfortunately, we live in reality, not La La Land. Its going to come down to voting for someone who supports this or abstaining/voting for someone who will not only support this, but probably double down and send troops over to kickstart WW3.

legendary_zell posted...

Don't make this into a debate about Democracy if the real issue is that you just support Biden's current blank check policy towards Israel.

The 2024 election is literally about democracy and this is a topic about the 2024 election in the context of the Gaza conflict.

I don't support a blank check to Israel to do genocide.

Just give me the plan post 2024 in a scenario where Trump wins and I'm happy to change my mind.

Shadow_Don posted...

He does, thats why I said it would also be his fault if we lose 2024.

But me telling people they are fucking morons for not voting in 2024 should not exacerbate the alienation of progressives. If thats the case then progressives are fucking pathetic cowards.

The alienation of voters in general, not just progressives, by explicitly arguing that Biden opposing the majority doesn't matter as long as he's better than Trump. That's a self-defeating argument for democracy that will just increase voter apathy.

Strand posted...

The alienation of voters in general, not just progressives, by explicitly arguing that Biden opposing the majority doesn't matter as long as he's better than Trump. That's a self-defeating argument for democracy that will just increase voter apathy.

I didn't say it doesn't matter though. I said multiple times, directly in response to you, that I would pin this on Biden if he loses and I also pinned the blame on Hillary for losing in 2016. It is also true that it's not a good idea to let Trump win.

Whats the fucking contradiction?

1337toothbrush posted...

See, that's another thing. Republicans play dirty and they fight for every scrap of power they can get. Meanwhile democrats sit with their thumbs up their ass and claim they can't do anything ever. If anything you're the closet republican because you're content with this arrangement.

Like what you are doing in this topic. Trying to convince/defend people staying home election. A well known strategy of Republicans who openly admit more people voting they'll lose.

asdf8562 posted...

Like what you are doing in this topic. Trying to convince/defend people staying home election. A well known strategy of Republicans who openly admit more people voting they'll lose.

Me: "I vote for democrats every single election down the entire ballot"

You: "You're trying to convince people to stay home"

You're also still ignoring why republicans win when fewer people vote. It's because they deliver what their voters want so their voters are dedicated in return.

1337toothbrush posted...

Me: "I vote for democrats every single election down the entire ballot"

You: "You're trying to convince people to stay home"

Because that's literally the only thing you post about dude. A lot of people here know you from 261 and the only posts you make are about why you shouldn't vote for democrats. For YEARS.

You're also still ignoring why republicans win when fewer people vote. It's because they deliver what their voters want so their voters are dedicated in return.

Or maybe because progressives don't vote??? Because assholes tell them not to vote?

1337toothbrush posted...

Me: "I vote for democrats every single election down the entire ballot"

You: "You're trying to convince people to stay home"

You're also still ignoring why republicans win when fewer people vote. It's because they deliver what their voters want so their voters are dedicated in return.

In reality:
You: promoting the same logic and reason as Republicans why it's a brilliant idea not to vote, why both sides are the same, and why you mind as well let Republicans win anyway.

Me: "You're trying to convince people to stay home with your enlightened Progressive routine which helps Republicans. Your logic does not help Progressives, but Republicans sure do love telling the enlightened ones just how much they are winning by letting Republicans win!"

Republicans win partly due to people like you spreading the great word why staying home election day, while letting Republicans get a conservative Supreme Court, and overturned Roe v Wade..... is some how a big brained move.

Oh and we can't forget your Trump supporter like logic, "the election was rigged!!!!"

Shadow_Don posted...

Because that's literally the only thing you post about dude. A lot of people here know you from 261 and the only posts you make are about why you shouldn't vote for democrats. For YEARS.

261 eventually became democrat mini-HQ so I can see why they'd take "democrats need to do better" as "he's telling people to not vote democrat!!!!!!!!!!!" but for sane people, that's not how they'd read this lightest of criticisms.

Shadow_Don posted...

Or maybe because progressives don't vote??? Because assholes tell them not to vote?

Or maybe progressives would vote if they felt like they had a chance??? Obama ran a progressive campaign and was wildly successful. Democrats kneecapped Bernie with counting superdelegates and showing Hillary as a lock early on. Then they assembled moderate voltron for Biden. Democrats fight harder against progressives than republicans.

@asdf8562 just refer to the above for your redundant post.

I refer you to my last post oh enlightened Progressive you.

Yes let the orange idiot win, that will teach em.

1337toothbrush posted...

261 eventually became democrat mini-HQ so I can see why they'd take "democrats need to do better" as "he's telling people to not vote democrat!!!!!!!!!!!" but for sane people, that's not how they'd read this lightest of criticisms.

261 was almost universally progressive.

Or maybe progressives would vote if they felt like they had a chance??? Obama ran a progressive campaign and was wildly successful. Democrats kneecapped Bernie with counting superdelegates and showing Hillary as a lock early on. Then they assembled moderate voltron for Biden. Democrats fight harder against progressives than republicans.

Hillary. Got. More. Votes. From. The. Voters.

So did Biden.

If the delegates went against the voters and put Bernie as the candidate for the general instead of Hillary or Biden, then that would have been an example of voter suppression/disfranchisement.

You're the one that has to appeal to the voters instead of shaming them.

And if your response is: "well achhtually we can just let trump win"

then you can just fuck off because you aren't a person that cares about progressive values.

Shadow_Don posted...

261 was almost universally progressive.

They aligned almost perfectly with democratic party policies and labeled anything outside of that as radical.

Shadow_Don posted...

Hillary. Got. More. Votes. From. The. Voters.

So did Biden.

During. The. Party. Controlled. Primary. Process. And. With. The. Power. Of. All. Their. Big. Media. Buddies. Controlling. The. Narrative. On. Who. Was. Likely. To. Win.

1337toothbrush posted...

They aligned almost perfectly with democratic party policies and labeled anything outside of that as radical.

They espoused progressive values universally.

During. The. Party. Controlled. Primary. Process. And. With. The. Power. Of. All. Their. Big. Media. Buddies. Controlling. The. Narrative. On. Who. Was. Likely. To. Win.

Still. More. Votes.

1337toothbrush posted...

During. The. Party. Controlled. Primary. Process. And. With. The. Power. Of. All. Their. Big. Media. Buddies. Controlling. The. Narrative. On. Who. Was. Likely. To. Win.

Yes yes. Just like Trump supporters, when your guy loses, it was rigged.

asdf8562 posted...

Yes yes. Just like Trump supporters, when your guy loses, it was rigged.

Except it has been proven time and again Trump lost legally.

Bernie didn't even get screwed by anything illegal. There was just a clear effort to consolidate around one moderate by everyone dropping out at once.

Shadow_Don posted...

They espoused progressive values universally.

They espoused democratic values universally and shouted down progressive values as "impractical" or claimed that the only way to achieve those changes is through a reform process so slow that it might as well be standstill because republicans could easily reverse such small changes. 2016 broke their brain and made them double down instead of admitting they were wrong.

Shadow_Don posted...

Still. More. Votes.

Yeah, and Putin got 77.53% of the vote in 2018. Doesn't really matter when the process is controlled.

Doe posted...

No, I won't be content until past when the US electoral system is dismantled. But in the meantime, I'll vote Dems for 2024. I just think you all should stop throwing all your anger at people like Arab Americans with family members in Gaza for whom this issue is a make it or break it thing, and instead focus that anger on the Dems.

The way you guys talk about US politics ITT it's a wonder how any change has ever been effected

Well we didn't get change by acting like a bunch of dumb single-issue voters who let the worse option flush decades of progress down the toilet, just because the other option was less bad instead good.

I'll have the capacity to be angry at Republicans, Democrats, and voters all at once for various reasons.

Lettiht fascists fucking destroy Americans because the government won't stop helping Israel is idiotic and selfish and I have zero sympathy for anyone who thinks like that.

hockeybub89 posted...

Except it has been proven time and again Trump lost legally.

Bernie didn't even get screwed by anything illegal. There was just a clear effort to consolidate around one moderate by everyone dropping out at once.

If your election strategy consists of hoping moderates have to split their votes 8 different ways then maybe you're not really a popular candidate after all.

Also it's fucking hilarious about how Biden has to "earn votes" but Sanders doesn't have to do anything except hope multiple other people running on nearly identical platforms can't get a majority.

1337toothbrush posted...

They espoused democratic values universally and shouted down progressive values as "impractical" or claimed that the only way to achieve those changes is through a reform process so slow that it might as well be standstill because republicans could easily such small changes. 2016 broke their brain and made them double down instead of admitting they were wrong.

Ok. Who got more votes though? Was it Bernie or was it Hillary?

"shouting down progressive values as impractical" is not illegal. It's not anti-democratic. It's just having a political discourse.

Should we have gathered the party to override that vote and made Bernie the candidate?

Yeah, and Putin got 77.53% of the vote in 2018. Doesn't really matter when the process is controlled.

and there it is....

If anyone was confused by this stupid and exhausting debate then you should not be confused any longer.

Comparing the election process to that of Russia is just insane.

hockeybub89 posted...

Except it has been proven time and again Trump lost legally.

Bernie didn't even get screwed by anything illegal. There was just a clear effort to consolidate around one moderate by everyone dropping out at once.

Bernie lost legally as well. The other candidates rallying behind one guy isn't illegal, nor is Bernie owed some divine right of the others rallying behind him. The other candidates banded together, and to make sure who they thought had a better shot won, and he did. He also even beat Trump despite some enlightened Progressives best efforts to side with Republicans. Enlightened Progressives just have a hard time accepting he lost.

Hence like Trump supporters, the enlightened ones love to cry Bernies loss was rigged.

Shadow_Don posted...

261 was almost universally progressive.

Absolutely not, they treated Bernie supporters worse than Trump supporters.

Shadow_Don posted...

Ok. Who got more votes though? Was it Bernie or was it Hillary?

Should we have gathered the party to override that vote and made Bernie the candidate?

and there it is....

If anyone was confused by this stupid and exhausting debate then you should not be confused any longer.

Comparing the election process to that of Russia is just insane.

What's actually insane is how anyone can see the stage play known as American politics and think you actually have a say. There are only two viable parties and they filter candidates through their primary process and you think this is a fair system that totally isn't stacked against party outsiders.

Tyranthraxus posted...

If your election strategy consists of hoping moderates have to split their votes 8 different ways then maybe you're not really a popular candidate after all.

Also it's fucking hilarious about how Biden has to "earn votes" but Sanders doesn't have to do anything except hope multiple other people running on nearly identical platforms can't get a majority.

Since when has the majority of voters known what is good for them?

1337toothbrush posted...

What's actually insane is how anyone can see the stage play known as American politics and think you actually have a say. There are only two viable parties and they filter candidates through their primary process and you think this is a fair system that totally isn't stacked against party outsiders.

And we're all going to fucking die if one party wins, so we need to suck it up and vote for survival at all costs.

Tyranthraxus posted...

If your election strategy consists of hoping moderates have to split their votes 8 different ways then maybe you're not really a popular candidate after all.

Also it's fucking hilarious about how Biden has to "earn votes" but Sanders doesn't have to do anything except hope multiple other people running on nearly identical platforms can't get a majority.

If Bernie was the nominee in 2016, he would've won the general election. Turns out what party diehards want isn't necessarily the same as what the nation as a whole wants. This is what you people should've learned in 2016, but you were convinced that Hillary was a guaranteed winner in 2016, which just goes to show how much you know.

hockeybub89 posted...

And we're all going to fucking die if one party wins, so we need to suck it up and vote for survival at all costs.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/joe-biden-america-needs-the-republican-party.html
https://www.newsweek.com/nancy-pelosi-says-us-needs-strong-republican-party-1779854
https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Democrats don't seem very concerned.

Inohira posted...

Absolutely not, they treated Bernie supporters worse than Trump supporters.

I was on 261 for a long time and thats fucking bullshit. Just straight up lying. Anyone from 261 will probably back this up.

1337toothbrush posted...

What's actually insane is how anyone can see the stage play known as American politics and think you actually have a say. There are only two viable parties and they filter candidates through their primary process and you think this is a fair system that totally isn't stacked against party outsiders.

Bro. Nobody disagrees that there is a 2 party system that has a stronghold.

It's about which of those 2 parties isn't the fascist lunatic party.

I'm sorry, but you aren't smarter than everyone else on this board just because you read the spark notes of Manufacturing Consent.

Inohira posted...

Absolutely not, they treated Bernie supporters worse than Trump supporters.

I'd argue just the enlightened ones got treated badly. The ones that to this day sound like Trump supporters.

Why they got more flak, because of the whole enlightened Progressive routine which argues "both sides bad", the election was rigged, you shouldn't vote in 2016, 2018, 2020, 2022, and now 2024. The eerily similar narrative Republicans parrot, as Republicans have openly said its a good thing when there's less people voting in elections because most tend to vote Democrat.

Which I think it's important to note, this is not all Progressives or all Bernie supporters doing the above.