Current Events > Israel/Palestine War: Live Update Thread

(+) Yeah! (+)

legendary_zell posted...

Why is any group of people entitled to establish an ethnostate with an enforced majority by displacing and oppressing the preexisting population? That has a lot to do with the aggression that Israel has been "forced" to set up apartheid to deal with. Yeah, when you're not "nice" to the people you did that to, they're gonna be mad at you.

Your question is fundamentally flawed because they were Jewish people who lived in that area and were part of the Ottoman empire when it collapsed. If the conversation doesn't even begin with acknowledgment that there were Jewish natives to the region than you're already starting off on the wrong foot.

Now if you're talking about their settlement and expansion, I absolutely agree. But you'll notice that the Palestinian response in the West Bank isn't nearly as aggressive as in gaza, when the West Bank is the actual place where the settlements are being built. Again, the starting point of relations between Israel and the people who lived in Gaza was a fundamental rejection of their right to exist and an attempt to finish them off. Then they tried again in two decades. Then they elected a leader who said it was his goal to do that. Then Hamas took over and literally put it in their charter.

ZaruenKosai posted...

name one person defending hamas ... calling israel out for their own atrocities is not defending hamas , caring about the 1 million children currently living in palestine that will most likely be collateral damage once Israel unleashes their incoming heavy assault, does not mean anyone likes it when Hamas beheads children, and it does not mean any one here is saying HAMAS GOOD. Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to go, but it won't solve the root problem, which is Israeals treatment of the Palestine people.

to assume people are in support of hamas because they call out Israels atrocities is just beyond wtf.

Here's some from the original topic. I think the absolute most repugnant got deleted, but here's a few that didn't get purged:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976524387

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976525597

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976525741

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976525918

No, this is not a religious problem. It a native population vs western colonizers problem.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976526255

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976526813

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976533053

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976535781

streamofthesky posted...

Here's some from the original topic. I think the absolute most repugnant got deleted, but here's a few that didn't get purged:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976524387

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976525597

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976525741

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976525918

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976526255

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976526813

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976533053

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/80587365/976535781

You've shown exactly 1 post defending Hamas.

s0nicfan posted...

Your question is fundamentally flawed because they were Jewish people who lived in that area and were part of the Ottoman empire when it collapsed. If the conversation doesn't even begin with acknowledgment that there were Jewish natives to the region than you're already starting off on the wrong foot.

Now if you're talking about their settlement and expansion, I absolutely agree. But you'll notice that the Palestinian response in the West Bank isn't nearly as aggressive as in gaza, when the West Bank is the actual place where the settlements are being built. Again, the starting point of relations between Israel and the people who lived in Gaza was a fundamental rejection of their right to exist and an attempt to finish them off. Then they tried again in two decades. Then they elected a leader who said it was his goal to do that. Then Hamas took over and literally put it in their charter.

No one is disputing that there were Jewish people in the area. But those aren't the people that set up Israel or the people that mostly populate it now. That was primarily done by Jewish people from Europe. And before that, the primary population of the area was Palestinian Arabs. Those Palestinian Arabs were killed or pushed out by the early settlers, who by definition, came from elsewhere. Their connection to the area was religious/ancestral and was enforced at gunpoint, as it still is now.

The Palestinians as a whole combine all the oppression they face into their overall grievance, but different people face different conditions and constraints on the ground. Settlement is awful, but Gaza is a site of even more intense oppression and concentration. That tends to breed desperation, hopelessness, and anger, the exact cocktail that leads to terrorism.

Why shouldn't the people of Gaza rejected Israel's right to exist there? Would you accept the right of some genuinely oppressed group to take over the state you live in and kick you out by force? Again, we're just kind of accepting the idea that that should have been chill with the Palestinians.

There are reports confirming that at least 40 Israeli children aged 2 and below have been beheaded by Hamas

They are lucky that a response like this is not taken for such measures. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjFG-4Ge668

Palestine should find themselves lucky if all that happens is they are put in reservations,like Native Americans are in America...there's no way the current situation will be allowed to continue...

Necronmon posted...

Palestine should find themselves lucky if all that happens is they are put in reservations,like Native Americans are in America...there's no way the current situation will be allowed to continue...

Native Americans were the victims of genocide. There was nothing 'lucky' about it.

legendary_zell posted...

Why is any group of people entitled to establish an ethnostate with an enforced majority by displacing and oppressing the preexisting population? That has a lot to do with the aggression that Israel has been "forced" to set up apartheid to deal with. Yeah, when you're not "nice" to the people you did that to, they're gonna be mad at you.

So we can safely assume the actual position of everyone too afraid to state theirs is that israel has no right to exist?

IceCreamOnStero posted...

You've shown exactly 1 post defending Hamas.

In his mind, not supporting Israel 100% in everything they have done and will do is equal to defending Hamas.

legendary_zell posted...

Why shouldn't the people of Gaza rejected Israel's right to exist there?

Nvm

So what is your solution for the 9.4 million citizens of israel that don't want to get murdered by their neighbors?

Alteres posted...

So we can safely assume the actual position of everyone too afraid to state theirs is that israel has no right to exist?

Does Israel's existence hinge on being a colonial apartheid state?

Hornezz posted...

Native Americans were the victims of genocide. There was nothing 'lucky' about it.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/7/4/AABUaRAAE66S.jpg
We killed 90% of their population.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Does Israel's existence hinge on being a colonial apartheid state?

If people are going to keep saying that Hamas was formed by Israel's actions, then you need to take it a step further and also explain how Israel's actions were formed from aggression against them.

After the 1948, when a league of Arab nations declared war on Israel the day they were formed, Egypt was placed in control of Gaza. Israel withdrew all their forces and left Egypt to manage the region. Israel then captured Gaza in 1967 during the 6-day war when, again, a league of Arab nations joined together to try and wipe them out. They controlled Gaza directly until the Oslo accords in 1993 when administrative control was handed over to the Palestinian government. They pulled all their troops out in 1994 and then Yassir Arafat was responsible for the region. Arafat, by the way, was the one who rejected the two State solution in the 70s and stated "Our basic aim is to liberate the land from the Mediterranean Seas to the Jordan River.... The Palestinian revolution's basic concern is the uprooting of the Zionist entity from our land and liberating it." Even during the Oslo accord, when some kind of formal piece was established along with joint recognition, the Palestinian government stated that it was only a temporary measure until they could find the means to fully eradicate israel. Arafat was also the one to reject the camp David agreement in 2000 and refused to continue negotiations. The main sticking point was he insisted on a full Palestinian right to return, which would have allowed any Palestinian from anywhere, including the descendants of people who had previously left, instant Israeli citizenship and also the right to any land that they claim was their descendants. It would have turned the Jewish population in Israel into a minority which would have had serious consequences on Israeli government.

Hamas won a surprise election in 2006, overthrew the government, and then established themselves as the entity with absolute control over the region.

So when we're talking about Israeli actions in gaza, we really shouldn't pretend like they just woke up one day and decided to be oppressive. We're talking about decades of attempts to wipe them off the face of the Earth, dating all the way back to literally the day they were founded, and a region that has only partially been under Israeli control and often ruled by people who openly declared their intent to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. These are the people that Israel is being told they have to be nicer to.

So what is your response to this then? (sorry for the shitty quote, it was on the last page for me)

Alteres posted...

So we can safely assume the actual position of everyone too afraid to state theirs is that israel has no right to exist?

If you mean exist as an ethnostate with a majority enforced through apartheid, settlement, and violence, then no. But that's not because of Israel, rather it's because no one has that right. Do you disagree with that statement?

If they want to be a normal country with a real democracy rather than an ethnostate, then that's the way forward. That's going to be very difficult, but that's largely a consequence of how the country was established. Everything flows from that process and has been entirely foreseeable.

Israel packing up and leaving and setting up an Israel somewhere else is not a realistic outcome and they're not gonna do that because that would likely lead to a catastrophe on the way out. But the way things are set up now is not legitimate. I don't like enforced ethnostates whether it's the USA, Israel, Hungary, or anywhere else. That's no way to run a society, no matter how noble the intentions.

Cool it with the arguments. Valid updates will be pushed behind. Keep it short or make your own thread if you want to do long debates, I ask once more.

• BREAKING: Syria may be attacking Israel now as well. A 4th country joining the fray. This is getting really ugly really fast. https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1711833308890386570

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/8/8/AAb-t6AAE66g.jpg

Sorry, I'll stop.

To zell: read my last two posts then.

Takuya_Lee posted...

There are better ways than this. You. Know. That

Are there? It's the most immediate and overwhelming threat that they can also retract at any time. Would there a faster or more secure way of getting as many hostages back as possible?

VFalcone posted...

Cool it with the arguments. Valid updates will be pushed behind. Keep it short or make your own thread if you want to do long debates, I ask once more.

* BREAKING: Syria may be attacking Israel now as well. A 4th country joining the fray. This is getting really ugly really fast. https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1711833308890386570

Any chance of Syria meddling without Russia's consent?

VFalcone posted...

Syria may be attacking Israel now as well

Jesus. G-d forbid, is it possible we're witnessing the end of Israel? I know they have the capabilities to defend themselves, but at what point is the sheer volume of "being attacked on all sides" become too much?

darkace77450 posted...

Any chance of Syria meddling without Russia's consent?

I don't know. Not much word on it yet as it just happened within the hour... If it continues like this though, we may have the whole middle east attacking Israel

MatzoTov posted...

Jesus. G-d forbid, is it possible we're witnessing the end of Israel? I know they have the capabilities to defend themselves, but at what point is the sheer volume of "being attacked on all sides" become too much?

We've got a carrier strike group nearby and I can't fathom we'd sit it out if multiple countries start dog-piling our ally.

Israel has a nuke doesn't it?

darkace77450 posted...

We've got a carrier strike group nearby and I can't fathom we'd sit it out if multiple countries start dog-piling our ally.

Right. Forgot about that. Good.

legendary_zell posted...

If you mean exist as an ethnostate with a majority enforced through apartheid, settlement, and violence, then no. But that's not because of Israel, rather it's because no one has that right. Do you disagree with that statement?

Have you ever stopped to consider what would happen if this policy changed? It would take roughly a generation for Israel-Palestine to go from the last remaining Jewish majority nation to Nazi Germany part 2.

In a perfect world, a world without antisemitism and where all peoples could coexist in peace and harmony, it would not be necessary. But even on the path to that perfect world, I feel like you should have bigger fish to fry than the one place in the middle east where Islam is not the majority religion. When the Iranians are free, when the Saudis are free, when that entire part of the world is a bastion of freedom and democracy and Israel is the biggest tyrant on the block, let's revisit the issue.

ironman2009 posted...

Israel has a nuke doesn't it?

I believe so, but one nuke won't be enough to save you if you're getting attacked by many countries. You can only nuke one of them..

ironman2009 posted...

Israel has a nuke doesn't it?

Okay, so basically we got China, France, India, Israel, Pakistan, Russia, the UK and us with nukes.

ironman2009 posted...

Israel has a nuke doesn't it?

I'd put my money on them having more than "a" nuke.

Xenogears15 posted...

I'd put my money on them having more than "a" nuke.

Well yeah, I guess I should have said has nukes.

Alteres posted...

So what is your response to this then? (sorry for the shitty quote, it was on the last page for me)

That doesn't answer my question. Its a simple yes or no.

ironman2009 posted...

Israel has a nuke doesn't it?

It reportedly has multiple nukes.

It also (allegedly) has something called the Samson Doctrine where when Israel is deemed about to fall, they let fly with the nukes and destroy their neighbors and every major European city they can hit...

itcheyness posted...

It reportedly has multiple nukes.

It also (allegedly) has something called the Samson Doctrine where when Israel is deemed about to fall, they let fly with the nukes and destroy their neighbors and every major European city they can hit...

Well, shit

itcheyness posted...

It reportedly has multiple nukes.

It also (allegedly) has something called the Samson Doctrine where when Israel is deemed about to fall, they let fly with the nukes and destroy their neighbors and every major European city they can hit...

Literally any country with nukes would use them against the invading countries if they were in danger of being conquered by them (if not sooner).
The part where they'll just indescriminately wipe out all their neighbors and Europe sounds like bull shit Antisemitism straight out of the Protocols.

Block_that_Kick posted...

Okay, so basically we got China, France, India, Israel, Pakistan, Russia, the UK and us with nukes.

And North Korea.

UnrivaledKoopa posted...

Have you ever stopped to consider what would happen if this policy changed? It would take roughly a generation for Israel-Palestine to go from the last remaining Jewish majority nation to Nazi Germany part 2.

In a perfect world, a world without antisemitism and where all peoples could coexist in peace and harmony, it would not be necessary. But even on the path to that perfect world, I feel like you should have bigger fish to fry than the one place in the middle east where Islam is not the majority religion. When the Iranians are free, when the Saudis are free, when that entire part of the world is a bastion of freedom and democracy and Israel is the biggest tyrant on the block, let's revisit the issue.

I've already acknowledged why they did it. We all know that you can't maintain a toe hold in a hostile region without violence and oppression. But the question becomes why did you choose to do that? And can you really expect the people you're doing it to to just be fine with it?

Yes, there was and continues to be preexisting virulent antisemitism that exists regardless of any actions Israel takes or does not take. But you understand that anywhere where Israel was established against the will of the local population would then have an even bigger surge in antisemitism, mixed in with entirely legitimate grievances about being ethnically cleansed, imprisoned, embargoed, stripped of citizenship, etc by that same state?

At the end of the day, you're all essentially arguing that Israel had/has the right to displace everyone in Palestine and enforce their will forever, and the Palestinians should just accept that because....why? No one would accept that, just like no one would accept what Hamas did to innocent Israelis, and like no one would accept an occupying force bombing their neighborhood in response.

darkace77450 posted...

Any chance of Syria meddling without Russia's consent?

Russia would probably encourage Syria hoping republicans divert Ukraine funding to Israel instead.

On topic about Russia, apparently Hamas met with Putin in March:
https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-says-violence-israel-palestine-shows-us-failure-middle-east-2023-10-10/

Moscow has long-standing ties with the Palestinians, including Hamas, which last sent a senior delegation for talks in Moscow in March. But it also has "a lot in common" with Israel, including the fact that many Israelis are former Russian citizens, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

That's far enough away that its likely not related to this attack, but given everything in Ukraine even a tacit "we won't do anything if anything happens" could have played a part in their decision to act.

So let me get this right: Israel is now going to demolish and occupy Gaza, invade at least aouthern Lebanon, and may even invade the West Bank?

Well damn, guess that rally around the flag saved Nettenyahu in the end. Sigh.

legendary_zell posted...

I've already acknowledged why they did it. We all know that you can't maintain a toe hold in a hostile region without violence and oppression. But the question becomes why did you choose to do that? And can you really expect the people you're doing it to to just be fine with it?

Yes, there was and continues to be preexisting virulent antisemitism that exists regardless of any actions Israel takes or does not take. But you understand that anywhere where Israel was established against the will of the local population would then have an even bigger surge in antisemitism, mixed in with entirely legitimate grievances about being ethnically cleansed, imprisoned, embargoed, stripped of citizenship, etc by that same state?

At the end of the day, you're all essentially arguing that Israel had/has the right to displace everyone in Palestine and enforce their will forever, and the Palestinians should just accept that because....why? No one would accept that, just like no one would accept what Hamas did to innocent Israelis, and like no one would accept an occupying force bombing their neighborhood in response.

Its a part of the world where might makes right. They dont have to accept it but if theyre going to fight, well, its a fight.

streamofthesky posted...

The part where they'll just indescriminately wipe out all their neighbors and Europe sounds like bull shit Antisemitism straight out of the Protocols.

Yeah, antisemitism from Israeli military theorist Martin van Creveld:

We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.

We have Hamas beheading babies and slaughtering innocent people and everyone is hand waving it because Israel has a history of repressing the people of Palestine. Im sorry but Ive been very sympathetic to the plight of Palestine throughout my years but we arent talking about a few bottle rockets here flying over the walls. This was a straight up coordinated mass attack which has left 700+ plus innocent Israelis dead.

This wasnt about fighting for freedom on the Palestinian side. This was about derailing the talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Cant we just take a second to stop the false equivalency and just mourn the loss of innocent life on both sides. Fucking hell. 40% of Palestine is under the age of 14. 50% under the age of 19. Anyone who is trying to use this to troll or gain cheap political points needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.

itcheyness posted...

Yeah, antisemitism from Israeli military theorist Martin van Creveld:

Never heard of him. What was his role in the Israeli government/military?

*checks Wikipedia*

Life and career

Van Creveld was born in the Netherlands in the city of Rotterdam to a Jewish family. His parents, Leon and Margaret, were staunch Zionists who had managed to evade the gestapo during World War II.[citation needed]

In 1950, his family immigrated to Israel, and Creveld grew up in Ramat Gan. From 1964 to 1969, he studied history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and earned an M.A. From 1969 to 1971, he studied history at the London School of Economics and received a PhD.[1] His thesis was titled Greece and Yugoslavia in Hitler's strategy, 19401941.[2]

Van Creveld's doctoral dissertation on Hitler's strategy in the Balkans during the early years of World War II was published as a book in 1973: "Hitler's Strategy, 194041. The Balkan Clue." After completing his PhD in 1971, van Creveld returned to Israel and began teaching at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He became a professor in 1988. In 2007, he retired from teaching at Hebrew University, and began teaching at Tel Aviv University's Security Studies Program.[3]

Van Creveld has been married twice and has three children. He lives in Mevaseret Zion.[1]

Oh... he has none. He's just a tenured professor spouting insane views, like plenty of others have.

Should I find something insane a black professor in the U.S. said and use it to smear all black people?
Or is it only ok when we do that w/ Jewish people?

Unsuprised_Pika posted...

Russia would probably encourage Syria hoping republicans divert Ukraine funding to Israel instead.

Instead thats probably going to end up getting the Ukranian funding passed by the House.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Israel literally prevents them from doing that.

The problem is that while concrete and steel rebar can build apartment buildings... it is also what is used to build bunkers. So unless you have total control over the construction process, how can you trust HAMAS to use it for the benefit of their people?

They've proven, time and time again, that they want to maximize civilian suffering.

streamofthesky posted...

Never heard of him. What was his role in the Israeli government/military?

*checks Wikipedia*

Oh... he has none. He's just a tenured professor spouting insane views, like plenty of others have.

Should I find something insane a black professor in the U.S. said and use it to smear all black people?
Or is it only ok when we do that w/ Jewish people?

Dude, not everything is a plot to smear Jewish people. It's not unreasonable to cite a prominent Israeli military theorist and historian on what the Israeli military's strategy is. You're on one with this entire thing, which is understandable considering how horrific this whole situation is, but damn.

Tom_Joad posted...

The problem is that while concrete and steel rebar can build apartment buildings... it is also what is used to build bunkers. So unless you have total control over the construction process, how can you trust HAMAS to use it for the benefit of their people?

They've proven, time and time again, that they want to maximize civilian suffering.

So? Point is that Israel prevents Palestine from building any serious infrastructure, so "why didn't they build any themselves" isn't a good excuse for Israel's war crime of starving them.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

So? Point is that Israel prevents Palestine from building any serious infrastructure, so "why didn't they build any themselves" isn't a good excuse for Israel's war crime of starving them.

You do realize that they have a border with Egypt, right? So while Israel isn't going to give them concrete and rebar, they can get it from Egypt.

And there's not much Israel can do about that.

Further, if you are going to bring up how the Egyptian border is frequently shut... you might want to ask why a fellow Arab country would feel the need to close their border with another Arab territory.

Tom_Joad posted...

You do realize that they have a border with Egypt, right? So while Israel isn't going to give them concrete and rebar, they can get it from Egypt.

And there's not much Israel can do about that.

Israel puts strict building restrictions on the area, and WILL bulldoze shit that doesn't go through their hoops. It isn't about not giving them materials, they actively prevent Palestine from building.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Israel puts strict building restrictions on the area, and WILL bulldoze shit that doesn't go through their hoops. It isn't about not giving them materials, they actively prevent Palestine from building.

Israel isn't (wasn't, now) in the Gaza Strip. You're confusing the West Bank with the Gaza Strip.

---

Furthermore, you're acting as if Palestine is a unitary government. It isn't anymore. Not since 2007.

HAMAS runs the Gaza Strip. They killed all the FATAH members in the Gaza Strip when they took over.

Whereas FATAH controls the West Bank. Whatever they do in Ramallah *IS NOT FOLLOWED* by HAMAS in the Gaza Strip. And vice versa.

Tom_Joad posted...

Israel isn't (wasn't, now) in the Gaza Strip. You're confusing the West Bank with the Gaza Strip.

---

Furthermore, you're acting as if Palestine is a unitary government. It isn't anymore. Not since 2007.

HAMAS runs the Gaza Strip. They killed all the FATAH members in the Gaza Strip when they took over.

Whereas FATAH controls the West Bank. Whatever they do in Ramallah *IS NOT FOLLOWED* by HAMAS in the Gaza Strip. And vice versa.

They also dont allow any building (by Palestinians) in the West Bank and they do bulldoze homes there.

They also never go into Gaza so they wouldnt be bulldozing anything there.

Gaza does get material smuggled in though - military equipment but also all of the humanitarian supplies.

divot1338 posted...

They also dont allow any building (by Palestinians) in the West Bank and they do bulldoze homes there.

They also never go into Gaza so they wouldnt be bulldozing anything there.

Gaza does get material smuggled in though - military equipment but also all of the humanitarian supplies.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get across here.