Current Events > People are getting DQ'd from Pokemon Worlds for hacked pokemon

(+) Yeah! (+)

StealThisSheen posted...

Not at all. This is a bad post and you should feel bad.

Yeah it is. You're saying building the tools to perform your gameplay is part of practicing. Switch arcade stick with pokemon

Anteaterking posted...

The hours spent in a fighting game are actually making the player better at what people would consider the actual game (the match). A fighting game equivalent is if you played Game and Watch at a melee tournament and got dq-ed because you didn't actually unlock him legitimately.

In this whole post you aren't actually arguing the lack of merits of genning or the strategic depth that comes from not genning, just the amount of work it takes to replicate.

The merits should be pretty damn clear more so since if you can just gen a Pokemon you are skipping basically the majority of the work legitimate gamers are doing. The OP is showing people crying about basically getting caught

StealThisSheen posted...

Gen'd Pokemon tend to have values you can't normally obtain in the normal game. So even if their stats are "legal," there will be a data tell that tells the game "I didn't do this legitimately." For example (and this isn't literal, just an example), but a legit Pokemon will have data that, to a machine, translates to "I leveled up this way, and I used items to get this, and so on," whereas a Gen'd Pokemon will lack that, and just have data that says "This is what I came into existence as." And the games can tell.

What?

This is partly why I don't do official tournaments. I know I have some 'mons that are poorly genned. I also mostly use legendaries, so I know I'd be told to either switch them out or get out. That, and actually traveling to the locations.

Anteaterking posted...

The hours spent in a fighting game are actually making the player better at what people would consider the actual game (the match). A fighting game equivalent is if you played Game and Watch at a melee tournament and got dq-ed because you didn't actually unlock him legitimately.

In this whole post you aren't actually arguing the lack of merits of genning or the strategic depth that comes from not genning, just the amount of work it takes to replicate.

Pokemon is a turn-based game, so the whole point of the "work" that goes into it is building the team, not practicing the actual gameplay. So, yes, the amount of effort that goes into building the team IS the point. They don't want to reward people who are lazy and skip the process, compared to those that actually... You know, play the game.

Brah

no it isn't lol

Genning should be legal IMO but you shouldn't be allowed to Gen impossible Pokemon. Like there's no way to have a 6IV Koraidon right now so you shouldn't be allowed to gen one either even if it's game rules legal.

Rath_Attack posted...

What?

I mean, this is obvious. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to disqualify these people, would they? These players aren't using impossible Pokemon, they just genned their legal teams, and yet they were found out, all the same.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Like there's no way to have a 6IV Koraidon right now

Is that really true?

Baha05 posted...

The merits should be pretty damn clear more so since if you can just gen a Pokemon you are skipping basically the majority of the work legitimate gamers are doing. The OP is showing people crying about basically getting caught

You're not describing merits of the game, you're talking about the merits of "working hard".

If I play in a Magic the Gathering tournament and my friend lends me his cards for the event, they don't take away the win even though I didn't "work hard" to open the packs and get the cards or pay money for them. (You can get banned from tournaments for playing with counterfeit cards, but it's never presented as a *strategic* advantage, just a capitalistic one)

ZMythos posted...

Is that really true?

I would assume so if they programmed it that way.

Havent read through the topic. Ill just say that there was certainly a culture of people genning moms. Many agreed that it was fine, but that was between players, not officially. I understand why they do it. Its no fun to spend like an hour grinding enough Tera shards to switch, if the one you have at the moment isnt correct. And then again to switch back. But still, its a risk they were taking, and they got called on it. The only annoying thing is that theres no reasonable method to getting a 0IV speed and attack Enamorous except by spending what is likely to be dozens and dozens of hours. This is due to it being exclusive to PLA, which doesnt measure IVs the same, so you have to transfer it out to check. So you cant just soft reset.

ZMythos posted...

Is that really true?

Uhh I mean I guess with bottle caps you can but not a natural one.

Why is it like that? That's weird

So, what if someone created a legitimate team, traded them to someone who played in the tournament and that person used them in the tournament?

They've done none of the work themselves, but they're not genned. Should they be banned from playing?

If you want to gen Pokemon and play competitive, do it all you want, they don't stop you from doing so.

But if you want to enter official tournaments, you've got to follow their rules. It's just that plain and simple. They decided they don't want to reward people who took shortcuts, and so you've got to live with that.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Uhh I mean I guess with bottle caps you can but not a natural one.

I mean, all legendary encounters have had 3 guarunteed 31IVs since at least gen 6. So you're rolling 31^3 on the last 3 which is a ~1/30k. Rare but not impossible.

djsporty92 posted...

So, what if someone created a legitimate team, traded them to someone who played in the tournament and that person used them in the tournament?

They've done none of the work themselves, but they're not genned. Should they be banned from playing?

That would presumably be fine, since the game wouldn't detect anything out of the ordinary. At the same time, though, you can obviously see why that would be a very rare thing. Few people are willing to build a team for somebody else. Unless they got compensated, I guess, but then there is nothing in the official rules to stop that, so... Have at it.

EDIT: The difference is SOMEBODY did the work, vs. nobody doing the work, in the case of genning.

As someone that plays a lot of VGC I'm usually on the side of breeding your own Pokemon, and it has gotten a lot easier the past few gens. But, breeding/catching for 0 IVs is complete bullshit, especially if it's a legendary.

And it's completely necessary when you want to breed a Pokemon as slow as possible for Trick Room teams. One of the guys that TC posted got in trouble for his Ursaluna which is a Trick Room Pokemon, and I assume he didn't want to go through the trouble of breeding a 0 IV mon.

GameFreak is on the right track with Rental Codes, but what they need to do is make a tool or mode that you can unlock when you finish the game (or through DLC) that allows you to make your own team similar to Pokemon Showdown. Make it so that you can only use those Pokemon in battles, not in game at all or in trades. So basically you make the team and it cranks out a Rental Code, that would be perfect.

Anteaterking posted...

You're not describing merits of the game, you're talking about the merits of "working hard".

If I play in a Magic the Gathering tournament and my friend lends me his cards for the event, they don't take away the win even though I didn't "work hard" to open the packs and get the cards or pay money for them. (You can get banned from tournaments for playing with counterfeit cards, but it's never presented as a *strategic* advantage, just a capitalistic one)

Which is part of the game.

And shitty comparison isnshitty because with any Trading Card games its all luck based or out right borrowing or buying cards. There are no means of cheating in the same manners as being done with Pokemon (Mind you it doesnt change people from cheating but that is more sleight of hand shit which isnt real magic)

StealThisSheen posted...

That would presumably be fine, since the game wouldn't detect anything out of the ordinary. At the same time, though, you can obviously see why that would be a very rare thing. Few people are willing to build a team for somebody else. Unless they got compensated, I guess, but then there is nothing in the official rules to stop that, so... Have at it.

Several world champions have dedicated teams of people theorycrafting, teambuilding, and pokemon creation working alongside them. It's a lot like chess in that regard.

Hacking also lets you get old shit. Want a Chansey with Wish that would go well with your team? Too bad! If you didnt get the event in Gen 3 and transferred it throughout the years, you're just FUCKED. That door for strategy is closed to you because you had the audacity to get into pokemon after that

Unless you hack! Then bam! Everyone is on even ground. It's your skills and teambuilding that are put to the test, not your no-lifeing for obscure event pokemon

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Hacking also lets you get old shit. Want a Chansey with Wish that would go well with your team? Too bad! If you didnt get the event in Gen 3 and transferred it throughout the years, you're just FUCKED. That door for strategy is closed to you because you had the audacity to get into pokemon after that

Unless you hack! Then bam! Everyone is on even ground

You have no clue what's changed in recent times.

Your Chansey with Wish will forget it and never be able to learn it if you transfer to Scarlet/Violet. Movepools have essentially been reset. Only the available moves by level up, TM, and breeding are available to any given mon in the newest games.

So your point is completely moot.

Then think of a move that applies. I aint some pokemon guru lol. You do the example legwork for me bruh

ZMythos posted...

Several world champions have dedicated teams of people theorycrafting, teambuilding, and pokemon creation working alongside them. It's a lot like chess in that regard.

But they do so legally, and SOMEBODY is putting in the work, regardless of who, which differentiates it from genning. If you want to pay somebody to do the work for you, as long as they do so legally, it's not against the rules. Genning a Pokemon, and therefore NOBODY putting in the work, is against the official rules.

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Then think of a move that applies. I aint some pokemon guru lol. You do the example legwork for me bruh

There is no move that applies. Event moves are locked to Home and anything prior to SwSh now. There's no reason to get an event chansey and bring it up to SV.

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Then think of a move that applies. I aint some pokemon guru lol. You do the example legwork for me bruh

It doesnt really apply in general now is what he means. Every Pokemon has had their moveset cut down for Scarlet and Violet. Theres nothing much like that anymore, maybe Fly Pikachu?

StealThisSheen posted...

But they do so legally, and SOMEBODY is putting in the work, regardless of who, which differentiates it from genning.

Yep. And that's perfectly fine. Often these teams split the prize money.

So should tournaments only allow own trainer IDs then? Several of the people complaining of being banned are saying they got their Pokemon in trades. Eggs can be used for any Pokemon that doesn't exist in game. And you can't breed legendaries so those can be exempt because you can just mint / bottlecap to do what you need.

PerseusRad posted...

It doesnt really apply in general now is what he means. Every Pokemon has had their moveset cut down for Scarlet and Violet. Theres nothing much like that anymore, maybe Fly Pikachu?

Fly Pikachu was the first event in ScVi.

ZMythos posted...

There is no move that applies. Event moves are locked to Home and anything prior to SwSh now. There's no reason to get an event chansey and bring it up to SV.

Oh really? There isnt any event only moves anymore?

ZMythos posted...

Yep. And that's perfectly fine. Often these teams split the prize money.

Exactly. If you want to compensate somebody for the work, you are free to do so. The only issue the official tournaments have is if NOBODY does the work, which is what genning is.

EDIT: Like said, nothing is stopping you from genning and playing online competitive. If you want to enter an official tournament, though, then you've gotta follow their rules. It's pretty much the definition of "Fair, next."

Tyranthraxus posted...

Fly Pikachu was the first event in ScVi.

I know, and thats what I mean. I dont think you can get a Fly Pikachu now, so youd have to generate one, but thats the only unique move that Im aware of that exists at the moment for these games.

Tyranthraxus posted...

So should tournaments only allow own trainer IDs then? Several of the people complaining of being banned are saying they got their Pokemon in trades. Eggs can be used for any Pokemon that doesn't exist in game. And you can't breed legendaries so those can be exempt because you can just mint / bottlecap to do what you need.

Trading should be legal, but to avoid the "I didn't know it was hacked when I traded it" dilemma, there should be an ingame check for legality of a pokemon.

And they should have been performing this check long before the world championship. Identify illegal mons at the regional level and give a warning before a band for anyone using them.

My pokemon all are natty, get fucked!

PerseusRad posted...

I know, and thats what I mean. I dont think you can get a Fly Pikachu now, so youd have to generate one, but thats the only unique move that Im aware of that exists at the moment for these games.

Sure but like if you wanted one (why?) It wouldn't be as onerous as grabbing a Chansey from Gen 3. I'm sure you could find a trade out there.

Look all I'm getting at is that Team Rocket is right: Pokemon are tools that are a means to an end >_>

Why bother wasting hours making a pokemon when you can do it in minutes and have it be digitally indistinguishable if you do it right? It just gives me more time to practice strats with it instead of wasting time breeding one only to realize that it doesnt work because I miscalculated a matchup and I gotta start over. Or I can bake a pie and eat it or something.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Sure but like if you wanted one (why?) It wouldn't be as onerous as grabbing a Chansey from Gen 3. I'm sure you could find a trade out there.

Sure, it was more pointing out there was one thing like that, but its pretty much completely irrelevant. I was confirming that you were right beyond one exception.

ZMythos posted...

Trading should be legal, but to avoid the "I didn't know it was hacked when I traded it" dilemma, there should be an ingame check for legality of a pokemon.

And they should have been performing this check long before the world championship. Identify illegal mons at the regional level and give a warning before a band for anyone using them.

I do agree, but in the same light, it's very hard to get a Pokemon you legitimately do not know isn't legit. To get a Pokemon with an abnormal move in the first place involves a direct trade with somebody. And if you're directly trading with somebody, you should probably check them out and make sure they're legit before including their Pokemon in an official tournament team.

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Look all I'm getting at is that Team Rocket is right: Pokemon are tools that are a means to an end >_>

Why bother wasting hours making a pokemon when you can do it in minutes and have it be digitally indistinguishable if you do it right? It just give me more time to practice strats with it instead of wasting time breeding one only to realize that it doesnt work because I miscalculated a matchup

This is literally the plot of Pokemon Live!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mocsc_BsAdI

DKBananaSlamma posted...

Why bother wasting hours making a pokemon when you can do it in minutes and have it be digitally indistinguishable if you do it right?

It's not digitally indistinguishable, which is entirely the reason these players got caught. Clearly, based on this, it's currently impossible (or, atleast, very hard) to make it digitally indistinguishable. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten caught.

In gen 4 I played competitively and definitely hacked my teams. I almost entered VGC 2010 with a hacked team, only reason I didn't play was because there were too many competitors ahead of me. And I definitely agree that cheating should be banned in official tournaments. Battlers got too complacent with those sysbots to do the genning for them. If you gen correctly you will not be caught this easily.

Basically, gen better or git gud. If you can't get something, then don't use it.

StealThisSheen posted...

I mean, this is obvious. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to disqualify these people, would they? These players aren't using impossible Pokemon, they just genned their legal teams, and yet they were found out, all the same.

Nope. You just have such a fundamental lack of understanding of what you are talking about that you are confusing.

And anyone that thinks that not being able to Gen for Worlds at this point is trash at Pokemon to the point that it doesn't matter. They'd never be able to make it anyways.

ZMythos posted...

Trading should be legal, but to avoid the "I didn't know it was hacked when I traded it" dilemma, there should be an ingame check for legality of a pokemon.

And they should have been performing this check long before the world championship. Identify illegal mons at the regional level and give a warning before a band for anyone using them.

The issue is there are legitimacy check, they just suck and there are workaround to certain ones. From what I understand the main issue here was that certain Pokmon were marked by Home.

ellis123 posted...

Nope. You just have such a fundamental lack of understanding of what you are talking about that you are confusing.

And anyone that thinks that not being able to Gen for Worlds at this point is trash at Pokemon to the point that it doesn't matter.

Please explain why you think these players got caught, then. They weren't using illegal Pokemon, which means somehow, they were caught despite that.

StealThisSheen posted...

It's not digitally indistinguishable, which is entirely the reason these players got caught.

Yeah, cuz they fucked up! Like that one guy using a Dream Ball on a pokemon that cant possibly have it because he wanted to be unique or some flowery bullshit like that. Just keep your ego in check and you can make the pokes correctly >_> Cold and calculating like Giovanni would like.

Rath_Attack posted...

The issue is there are legitimacy check, they just suck and there are workaround to certain ones. From what I understand the main issue here was that certain Pokmon were marked by Home.

I'm guessing the trap was someone got a pokemon in ScVi that was impossible without trading it to home from an earlier generation but they genned it directly into ScVi.

StealThisSheen posted...

Please explain why you think these players got caught, then.

Because it defaults some information, such as where it was caught, and they never bothered to change it from that. Nothing BS like how they leveled up.

ellis123 posted...

Because it defaults some information, such as where it was caught, and they never bothered to change it from that. Nothing BS like how they leveled up.

...So, in other words, you're arguing with me because I only gave some examples of where they could fail checks, instead of all of them?

What? What even is the point?

All this talk about "doing the work" is what the hangup is.
On one side doing the work is all the bullshit tedium.
On the other doing the work is actually playing and winning the Pokemon battles.
It's just a fundamental difference in how people see the game. Personally I don't think either view is wrong, but they want to run official tourneys with non-genned pokemon and that isn't wrong either. You just gotta deal with it.