Poll of the Day > Car free cities are descriminatory against disabled people

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd really rather not have my mobility limited to whatever is within 20 feet of the bus stop/train station

thank god I'm not from a city that is currently trying to pull this stupid shit.

pity post

uh yeah, cars are....also not the best option for all disabled people

almost like maybe a city where transit actually works and is designed with disabled people in mind would be the best solution

ConfusedTorchic posted...

pity post

you did that wrong goofus. you gotta wait more than an hour lol.

i mustve rustled your jimmies pretty good at some point, and I am absolutely not sorry, whoever you are.

ReturnOfFa posted...

uh yeah, cars are....also not the best option for all disabled people

almost like maybe a city where transit actually works and is designed with disabled people in mind would be the best solution

there is no such city. I've been to plenty that try, and they are a tremendous pain in the ass to get around in. My driver can drop me off at the front door of any establishment that is accessible by car.

have you been to cities in nations with actually good public transportation nationwide? because that is a world of a difference from even the best public transportation in all of north america

MightBeOverSoon posted...

you gotta wait more than an hour lol.

it was more than an hour

agesboy posted...

have you been to cities in nations with actually good public transportation nationwide? because that is a world of a difference from even the best public transportation in all of north america

Yes, I have. Recently even. My visit to Prague was what sparked this topic.

Not as bad as stockholm 3 years ago, but still completely inconvenient by comparison to any US city I've been to.

This is why we need those jetpacks they promised us years ago.

Everything is not discrimination. No one is targeting the handicap. There is not an evil cartoon villain rubbing his hands together in a building somewhere trying to wipe out all the the handicap tristate area. Either they thought about this and have a plan or it was at worst a bad oversight. Either way no one is doing this on purpose to hurt the handicap.

Now if you don't mind I need to finish my wheel chair ramp inator. It destroys all wheel chair ramps in the tri state area. Mu ha ha ha ha ha!

So, you're wealthy enough to have a driver, something the majority of disabled people do not have. The cities you've listed are not on any lists of 'accessible cities', so it sounds like that wasn't really your top priority in visiting these cities, and you're moreso just reflecting that those particular cities were less accessible than some American cities that you've been to. Or at least, in your experience.

Numerous American cities and numerous European cities are at the top of lists of 'most accessible' cities, and those cities cater to more people than just people like yourself, who have certain abilities relating to wealth that other folks with physical disabilities do not.

Like, blow me down with a rubber hose, Czechia is less accessible than the Netherlands!? *MIND BLOWN*!!!

also, let's address the original topic statement. Name a car-free city that has discriminated against you. Go ahead, do it. What's that city called? Is it actually car-free?

I have never heard of a city without cars.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

whatever is within 20 feet of the bus stop/train station

ideally this would be most places
I'd rather not pay $5000 a year to access the necessities of life like food but here we are in the suburbs

acesxhigh posted...

ideally this would be most places
I'd rather not pay $5000 a year to access the necessities of life like food but here we are in the suburbs

i would theoretically have to walk about 3-4 hours to get to my local grocery store, one way

rural america is fucked

agesboy posted...

i would theoretically have to walk about 3-4 hours to get to my local grocery store, one way

rural america is fucked

Yes, rural America has been fucked for years. Good luck getting affordable high-speed broadband out here.

public transit can be accessible and cheaper for people in wheelchairs than private driving. I saw plenty of people in wheelchairs on buses in Austin, which isn't the most public transit friendly place. The bus lowered and had a ramp, and the bus driver helped, when someone needed it and there is space on the bus for that (or strollers for example)

private driving is expensive that not everyone can afford. also, I've seen some places that banned private driving allow exceptions for disabled persons. then there's less traffic and less people taking up parking areas which is a benefit

more investment can be made for wider sidewalks and maintenance if streets aren't taken up as much for cars. another benefit. in Austin, again for example, sidewalks often just stopped or cars pull up onto them which blocks accessibility

you can design car free cities with accessibility in mind.

agesboy posted...

i would theoretically have to walk about 3-4 hours to get to my local grocery store, one way

rural america is fucked

Suburban America is fucked as well - it would take me about 3-4 hours to walk to my local grocery store also. And I can't imagine a scenario where I actually manage to get any of the food home.

Though at this point in my life, I can imagine a scenario where I just die on the way. I am so not in the shape for that sort of thing anymore.

Pretty sure they have accessibility options, and if they don't I'll just advocate for it too.

Sorry but car based infrastructure is just cancer. We all complain about the grimy noise pollution and traffic, there's only one thing to do about it.

I want walkable markets, town centers, and bike paths. I took a vacation to a place with bike paths everywhere, it was an amazing improvement.

Yellow posted...

I took a vacation to a place with bike paths everywhere

Which place?

Fierce_Deity_08 posted...

Yes, rural America has been fucked for years. Good luck getting affordable high-speed broadband out here.

we finally got SOME internet out in my sticks after putting up with satellite for years

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/2/5/AAGJd8AAEiaV.png
they throttle us to 2mbps upload

Car centric cities are actually discriminatory to the poor. And there have been studies that have shown cities with poor transit usually have poorer populations.

agesboy posted...

we finally got SOME internet out in my sticks after putting up with satellite for years

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/2/5/AAGJd8AAEiaV.png
they throttle us to 2mbps upload

Shit, youre almost as bad as cruise ship wifi

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/2/8/AAN-CpAAEiaY.jpg

ReturnOfFa posted...

So, you're wealthy enough to have a driver, something the majority of disabled people do not have. The cities you've listed are not on any lists of 'accessible cities', so it sounds like that wasn't really your top priority in visiting these cities, and you're moreso just reflecting that those particular cities were less accessible than some American cities that you've been to. Or at least, in your experience.

Numerous American cities and numerous European cities are at the top of lists of 'most accessible' cities, and those cities cater to more people than just people like yourself, who have certain abilities relating to wealth that other folks with physical disabilities do not.

As much as I don't want to say anything even slightly negative about someone with a disability, TC is coming off a bit whiney. To be able to even HAVE an overseas, let alone an in country vacation is a privilege. As stated above, perhaps do more research in the future? Because apparently you can also afford to recreationaly travel regularly?

yeah like go vacation in berlin or madrid or tokyo if you want public transportation lmao

i haven't been able to afford a vacation in about 15 years

Ogurisama posted...

Car centric cities are actually discriminatory to the poor. And there have been studies that have shown cities with poor transit usually have poorer populations.

I am not concerned with the poor because I am not one of them
People are interested in their own interest. That's just how shit goes no matter how much some of us try to pretend otherwise.

agesboy posted...

yeah like go vacation in berlin or madrid or tokyo if you want public transportation lmao

i haven't been able to afford a vacation in about 15 years

Prague supposedly has some of the best public transportation in the world.
It was hugely inconvenient and difficult for me to get anywhere and do anything. You know what would have been easier? Having my driver drop me off at the front door, which was simply not possible in like 80% of the city.

Public transportation is bad for accessibility, no matter how much you try to build your city around it.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

My driver can drop me off at the front door of any establishment that is accessible by car.

So... you have absolutely no concept of what the vast majority of disabled people actually have to put up with in car-centric cities. Got it. Protip: Most disabled people have to drive themselves and park significantly further away than the front door.

Even putting aside for a moment the oft-ignored fact that designing cities around transit, cycling, and walking doesn't actually mean making them "car-free" as many people seem to think, on the whole it tends to improve the experience for disabled people. Destinations can be significantly closer together when 60% of a city's land isn't taken up by parking spaces and giant roads, crossings are safer (and in many cases remain level with the sidewalk instead of dropping to the road) because roads are narrow and traffic is slower, sidewalks are wider, and in properly-designed cases you do have a bus stop within a block or two of wherever you're going (blocks that tend to be smaller because they don't have to accommodate giant parking lots). More indirectly, sidewalks tend to be in better shape because more infrastructure budget is invested in them instead of sprawling suburban stroads that fall apart overnight. On top of all that, if you are so disabled that you genuinely can't handle walking any further than a car in front of the door and you have somebody to drop you off instead of needing to move yourself independently, having fewer people driving means most of the remaining parking spots can be designated as handicapped spots, so the odds of being able to park closer to stuff increases pretty significantly.

Now, it's probably going to be worse than "my driver can pull right up to the door," but that's a standard that's neither realistic to pursue on a larger scale nor something the vast majority of people can access now. I'm fine with sacrificing a bit of quality of life for the handful of people that can afford that standard for the sake of improving the city's prosperity and everyone else's safety and quality of life across the board.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

Prague supposedly has some of the best public transportation in the world.

can you cite a single statistical source for that

i have never heard of the czech republic having good transportation options in comparison to the rest of the world

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't usually drive myself, but if I did, handicapped spaces are way more convenient than a 5+ minute walk.

agesboy posted...

can you cite a single statistical source for that

i have never heard of the czech republic having good transportation options in comparison to the rest of the world

https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/survey-ranks-prague-s-public-transport-as-the-second-best-in-the-world#

Did you even try to look yourself? It's rated extremely highly.

So is stockholm, which i visited a few years ago, which sucked even more

MightBeOverSoon posted...

https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/survey-ranks-prague-s-public-transport-as-the-second-best-in-the-world#

Did you even try to look yourself? It's rated extremely highly.

So is stockholm, which i visited a few years ago, which sucked even more

"A study that encompassed over 50 cities asked locals one question: Is it easy to get around your city by public transport? Remarkably, 96 percent of people in Czechias capital agreed."

Key point. When you ask locals if it's easy to get around by public transportation, they answer according to how easily they can get to work, run errands, and otherwise live their everyday lives by using transit instead of driving. They do not answer according to how easily a tourist who's used to being dropped at the front door by her driver can get to a museum or restaurant. Given that locals being able to live their lives efficiently generally matters a lot more than the occasional tourist being slightly inconvenienced, that metric is going to be more worth paying attention to in making city design choices.

It's also worth noting that having good public transit does not necessarily correspond with being designed well around accessibility. Moving away from car-centric design is generally better for accessibility, but there are still accessibility-specific considerations needed on top of that to make cities better for those with disabilities. I could easily believe that Prague has good public transit but has dropped the ball on accessibility-focused building codes and other aspects of making life easier for disabled people.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

I am not concerned with the poor because I am not one of them
People are interested in their own interest. That's just how shit goes no matter how much some of us try to pretend otherwise.

Prague supposedly has some of the best public transportation in the world.
It was hugely inconvenient and difficult for me to get anywhere and do anything. You know what would have been easier? Having my driver drop me off at the front door, which was simply not possible in like 80% of the city.

Public transportation is bad for accessibility, no matter how much you try to build your city around it.

So by your own logic then, most of the world shouldn't care about disabled people because most people don't have disabilities. Got it.

Bubble_Gum posted...

Is this the same person who posted on the Elden Ring forums that hard games are discriminatory to disabled people?

Lmao, I probably play harder games on harder difficulties than you. I even made a topic about it.

Bubble_Gum posted...

So by your own logic then, most of the world shouldn't care about disabled people because most people don't have disabilities. Got it.

Most people in the world still pretend to, and most people in the world still cry loudly when the world isn't laid out to convenience them.

That was a weird thing to say, and I'm not sure what point your trying to make.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/survey-ranks-prague-s-public-transport-as-the-second-best-in-the-world#

Did you even try to look yourself? It's rated extremely highly.

you are literally citing a .cz source (that is czech nationally supported news)

try again

MightBeOverSoon posted...

Most people in the world still pretend to, and most people in the world still cry loudly when the world isn't laid out to convenience them.

That was a weird thing to say, and I'm not sure what point your trying to make.

I guess I find it amusing that you created this topic whining about how car free cities are inconvenient for you personally, yet you don't have any empathy for anyone else. So then why should anyone care what you think either? I don't think my post was hard to understand, you are a part of the same problem you are complaining about.

There's a very easy case to be made that not having accessibility option in games is discriminatory (especially easy ones like subtitles, volume mixing, and colourblind mode), but difficulty is a weird middle ground in that the difficulty is often such an intrinsic part of the experience that it's kind of unavoidable that some people aren't going to have the ability to play the game that way (whether because of some sort of formal disability or because they just aren't good enough). That said, it's becoming increasingly common for games to have an easy mode that's specifically intended for people to experience their stories even if they can't handle the trickier parts of the game, and that's overwhelmingly a good thing in every possible way and I do think there's room to hold developers accountable for their decisions to ignore that idea (like calling out Yoshi P's ridiculous "pride as a gamer" justification for FFXVI's ridiculously backwards way of including accessibility options).

agesboy posted...

you are literally citing a .cz source (that is czech nationally supported news)

try again

They were citing an international study, which you would have known if you bothered to read past the url.

https://www.timeout.com/travel/best-public-transport-in-the-world

There it is, #2.
Feel like a dummy yet?

OH and look at that, stockholm, another city I hated, is number 5.

Its almost like one of us has some idea what they are talking about, because they have traveled to these places, and another doesn't, because they haven't.

Bubble_Gum posted...

I guess I find it amusing that you created this topic whining about how car free cities are inconvenient for you personally, yet you don't have any empathy for anyone else. So then why should anyone care what you think either? I don't think my post was hard to understand, you are a part of the same problem you are complaining about.

Other people pretend to care, I'm just honest.
If I've inspired you to be more honest too then I've done a good deed. If you're willing to write off every disabled person on account of meeting one mean spirited selfish bitch, that says a lot about you. You should take some time to think on this revelation I've just brought you to.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

Other people pretend to care, I'm just honest.

You say this, but you've presented this topic as being concerned about broader discrimination even though it's about nothing more than personal inconvenience with zero regard for the actual realities of designing cities around accessibility and the experiences of the vast majority of disabled people.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

I am not concerned with the poor because I am not one of them
People are interested in their own interest. That's just how shit goes no matter how much some of us try to pretend otherwise.

Prague supposedly has some of the best public transportation in the world.
It was hugely inconvenient and difficult for me to get anywhere and do anything. You know what would have been easier? Having my driver drop me off at the front door, which was simply not possible in like 80% of the city.

Public transportation is bad for accessibility, no matter how much you try to build your city around it.

this is hilariously fucking dumb

Also noting that he still hasn't mentioned a car free city.

I especially like "I don't care that the poor can't access stuff without public transportation" followed immediately by "public transportation is bad for accessibility." Remember kids: The only disabilities that count are ones that make it hard to walk.

ReturnOfFa posted...

Also noting that he still hasn't mentioned a car free city.

Got half a dozen or more geniuses to respond to here, and frankly I'm not interested in searching Google for all of you. I'm sure you can figure out how to do it though.its super easy.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

Got half a dozen or more geniuses to respond to here, and frankly I'm not interested in searching Google for all of you. I'm sure you can figure out how to do it though.its super easy.

Who asked you to search Google? You said that car-free cities you've been to are discriminatory. Name the cities you've been to that are car-free.

You've mentioned Stockholm and Prague so far, neither of which are listed on any lists I find of accessible cities.

It's entertaining to watch you complain, but I'm just trying to follow through your line of thinking.

MightBeOverSoon posted...

There it is, #2.
Feel like a dummy yet?

"19 cities with the best public transport in the world according to locals"

this is not empirical, this is clickbait lmfao

they surveyed 20k people, which is less than the number of people living in my dead-end desolate town

try again?

Some right wingers are unironically saying 15-minute cities are a bad thing because if people have every convenience within 15 minutes then they'd never leave...

umm... derr?

agesboy posted...

they surveyed 20k people, which is less than the number of people living in my dead-end desolate town

That's not how surveys work. A sufficiently random sampling of people can be representative of the whole. There's a whole statistical system for this.

shadowsword87 posted...

That's not how surveys work. A sufficiently random sampling of people can be representative of the whole. There's a whole statistical system for this.

20k is definitely too low to make any definitive statement, though, is what I meant. especially when they claim to have surveyed "more than 50 cities". that's a pretty small sample size

you definitely can't claim discrimination off that. which 50+ cities were surveyed?