Current Events > So... What is your opinion on "stamina points"?

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Like MP but for physical attacks?

In Oblivion, it costs the fatigue bar to do even basic actions at full strength. Skyrim revised it for power attacks only.

Then there are games like Star Ocean 3 where your special physical moves consume HP. It's kind of balanced with MP use because losing both can kill you.

my take on this just boils down to no basic no mp spells being the rule of the day

They are dumb

unlimited stamina always

VampireCoyote posted...

They are dumb

unlimited stamina always

That's also dumb because now your game world looks smaller.

Even worse, physical attacks use stamina, but if no stamina, they eat HP.

Avirosb posted...

That's also dumb because now your game world looks smaller.

fuck your game world

I run

I kinda liked the Oblivion way, except for jumping around all day to increase it. If it gradually increased just for being active in any way, I think it would be fine.

It's barely tolerable as a mechanism for running. Attacks? Jeeze no. Unless it's only early game and you eventually build fuck-you levels of stamina and recovery.

Souls' stamina system is literally the thing that makes them work as games and all other action games with a stamina system should just rip it off.

I dont mind it. I hate special physical attacks costing HP, though.

Like all things, it depends on how it's implemented.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

It's barely tolerable as a mechanism for running. Attacks? Jeeze no. Unless it's only early game and you eventually build fuck-you levels of stamina and recovery.

I think the opposite of this. When used to slow down exploration, it literally adds nothing aside from time. Maybe you could argue that it encourages the player to get more upgrades, but I think those are boring upgrades and it would be better if instead the player got upgrades that gave them new travel options.

In combat, it's a solid way to spice things up when done well. Someone mentioned Dark Souls earlier which is both a great example of it being done well and poorly at the same time. It's really easy to just hide behind a massive shield in DS1 and poke everything with a spear, but that's not a particularly engaging way to play the game. In DS2 onwards, you'll generally get rekt if you try that outside of very specific builds, meaning the player actually has to measure their attacks so they are able to defend themselves. It stops the game just being R1 spam.

The boring bit is definitely if the game only uses it to limit running.

Stamina is the dumbest thing in video games next to fall damage

Avirosb posted...

That's also dumb because now your game world looks smaller.

If the game world becomes THAT much smaller just because the player is allowed to run, then it was always small and you've been tricked into thinking it isn't just because you have to slowly walk everywhere.

Depending on the gameplay, it can be good to balance things out.

If a mage needs more max mana to be able to use more than 3 fireballs, than a axe fighter should also have to care about some ressource.

But it should be a bit more than "mana, but green", and it also should not be some "sprinting ressource".

I didn't care for Rogue Galaxy's stamina system, it could've used some improvement. You got 7 swings, hit or miss, then your character had to sit and wait for stamina to refill or block an attack for an instant recharge. If you could fill back up at anytime with a block then it would've been better but no you had to run out first.

I dont have any problem with stamina being a special attack resource for physical characters the way that mana/magic points is for mages. I dont think Ive ever enjoyed a limited sprint duration kind of stamina mechanic, though.

elden ring really had it right where you only spent stamina during combat, and never during exploration.

But it should be a bit more than "mana, but green"

it should regenerate fast enough to where the player is thinking about spending it so it doesn't cap.

K181 posted...

Like all things, it depends on how it's implemented.

This is the correct take.

BurmesePenguin posted...

Souls' stamina system is literally the thing that makes them work as games and all other action games with a stamina system should just rip it off.

It's... almost as if different games have different... gameplay and that what works well for one experience might not work for another.

Stamina isn't a great thing in all cases, but sometimes it is. Using SP instead of MP is a nice way of letting your martial characters have limited-use special attacks like the magic casters without running everything on MP. Or you can go the old school SMT route and give everyone anxiety about using physical skills since those drain HP. Which fits, because old school SMT combat is about giving you anxiety. Other games are better served by letting you attack forever, for example Nier Automata would not be better served by more Stamina limitations. However, for games that have souls-like systems, they should really take a page from Elden Ring and make Stamina consumption only happen in combat scenarios.

Worse than stamina for normal attacks is having to manually replenish it with consumables, like in botw/totk

K181 posted...

Like all things, it depends on how it's implemented.

This, pretty much. And most games use it poorly.

Souls games are one of the few it feels mostly good. Primarily used in combat, with chunks removed but regens fast. Elden Ring tied exploration to riding, which took away the burn on sprint.

Anything where sprinting isn't a limited core mechanic (I.e. a horror game where you have to sprint to outrun a monster), it should never be tied to stamina.

RPGs can use it well, but normally don't. I feel like #20 hit a good spot on how to differentiate it from MP. One is careful, metered use and difficult to refill, while the other is burn through it and just don't "waste" the regen by capping.

That kind of thing can also help physical and magic classes feel different, where physical abilities are great to quickly burn assorted smaller encounters but magic is overall more powerful and good to fight bosses.

Edit: Oh and any mobile trash game that limits your play time with "stamina" so they can sell you refills can fuck right off.

it works on games that could make it work

kinda hate it when a turn-based rpg has stamina in addition to mana

kinda hate it when a turn-based rpg has stamina in addition to mana

i literally tried to proof of concept this in a free rpg maker thing.

it was so janky i actually had to create a dummy/nontargetable enemy and put it into every single battle so it could regenerate the party's stamina, because i couldn't find a way to actually script that in otherwise. it worked. ugly, but it worked.

my experience with trying to make that not play like ass taught me that all you can really do with a number that goes up and down is change how the player interacts with it. you don't enter a punished state for depleting your mana, but you should for depleting your stamina. also, you should have some way to spend all of your stamina in one round. that shit is fun.

actually, the regeneration is another differentiating thing you get to play with, because that's not usually a thing with mp.