Board 8 > Plum Reads (Plays?) Uminkeo The Playthrough topic 2 - Episode 7+

(+) Yeah! (+)

The "furniture can't love" thing is definitely intended to refer to Yasu's inability to have "proper" sex

Leonhart4 posted...

The "furniture can't love" thing is definitely intended to refer to Yasu's inability to have "proper" sex

Well, I mean it could also be referring to it psychologically.

After reading the manga chapters 2 things are clear to me

1. Reading the manga is way less exciting than the VN. The pace is all wrong
2. It was way more interesting with it being more vague

I kind of wish he didn't do that, because it leaves it more ambiguous. There are definitely some things I wish were more spelled out like the exact mechanics of some of those closed room murders, but I liked how you had to infer that Shannon and Kanon was the same person

...

Even if it took the purple truth puzzle to finally make it all make sense.

Anyways

FINAL RATING:

8/10 (With the good graphics. Don't make me rate what the original would have been)

I thought it was good! It was worth reading! Is it my favorite visual novel? No. Does it have some extreme pacing issues? Absolutely. Was it a fun time after a pretty horrendous first 30 hours or so? Definitely

Episodes 4 and 7 were especially great. Episodes 1 and 2 were especially terrible.

Honestly I wish books were more like video games and people embraced making changes after they were published. I think you could edit the story in a way to make is a 10/10 masterpiece. Cut some of the fluff especially around some of the anime fight scenes and speed up the pacing a little bit. Maybe add in a few more hints here and there.

But hell, some people already think it is a masterpiece so maybe I'm in the minority here

masterplum posted...

Well, I mean it could also be referring to it psychologically.

Pretty sure Ryukishi has gone on record saying that's what it's referring to

And also that George would have accepted the truth of Yasu no matter what

masterplum posted...

Honestly I wish books were more like video games and people embraced making changes after they were published. I think you could edit the story in a way to make is a 10/10 masterpiece. Cut some of the fluff especially around some of the anime fight scenes and speed up the pacing a little bit. Maybe add in a few more hints here and there.

But hell, some people already think it is a masterpiece so maybe I'm in the minority here

I do think it's a 10/10 VN and one of my favorite works of fiction, but there are lots of ways you could improve it. My least favorite episode in retrospect is EP4 because so much of it is tied up in truly meaningless magic battles. Ange's part works, but the gameboard is so empty of anything that it sucks the enjoyment out of the goofy boxing power levels and such. I'm sure stuff like that could be cut out. But there's still so much going on with Umineko, it's a tremendously ambitious story, and I love ambition.

Sceptilesolar posted...

I do think it's a 10/10 VN and one of my favorite works of fiction, but there are lots of ways you could improve it. My least favorite episode in retrospect is EP4 because so much of it is tied up in truly meaningless magic battles. Ange's part works, but the gameboard is so empty of anything that it sucks the enjoyment out of the goofy boxing power levels and such. I'm sure stuff like that could be cut out. But there's still so much going on with Umineko, it's a tremendously ambitious story, and I love ambition.

I thought at least the magic battles in 4 were entertaining. The magic battles in 2 I thought were pretty jarring.

oh also I forgot

Addendum to tier

Garbage Tier
The stupid Rabbits

Rabbits were always terrible. Stakes of purgatory were usually terrible but at least they had some interesting plot points like revealing they couldn't kill if Angie couldn't do it herself

The Ange part of Episode 4 sucked. The cousins banding together to take down Beatrice is the best part of the series.

Leonhart4 posted...

The Ange part of Episode 4 sucked. The cousins banding together to take down Beatrice is the best part of the series.

I thought the Angie part of 4 was one of the best parts of the game!

But then again I was always complaining whenever it veered away from pure mystery

I think Ange in general drags the mood down whenever she shows up. Not a fan of her character at all.

Ange segments were also my favorite parts of episode 4. Some of the segments with the stakes dragged on, but everything else, especially with Maria and Rosa, were fantastic.

Also yeah, the rabbits suck, but they have the best music so I can't hate whenever they show up :x

Ange is great.

Leonhart4 posted...

Pretty sure Ryukishi has gone on record saying that's what it's referring to

I don't think I remember ever seeing that, especially when the VN specifically says "because of this horrible injury". But yeah, it is still left ambiguous, I suppose- he's never outright confirmed it. I definitely think it leans much more toward 'was born male but raised female' than anything else however. It's possible to have the same gender identity issues without the injury factoring in, I suppose, but then why mention the injury is the cause of it at all? Kinda feels like an Occams Razor type scenario to me or whatever.

But yeah, draw your own conclusion on that whole debate I guess.

The George thing is true, though, I absolutely do remember him saying that at some point in an interview.

I do kind of agree that the answer to things were better being kept ambiguous in the VN. It's not that hard to puzzle the answers out on your own by the end, and anyone that kept up with actually trying/theorycrafting pretty much just got a "yeah, that's what I thought" reaction from reading Confession.

What really makes me love the series though is that, outside of some of the sillier comedy scenes like the aforementioned Episode 4 fights, nearly every single scene is actually relevant in some way or another. I've reread the series probably around 10 times at this point overall (especially if you count the 2 LPs I've watched other people read it in), and its really, really impressive. Even a lot of the magical combat 'going full fantasy' scenes are very important in retrospect.

Completely unrelated to the serious discussion, probably my favorite bit of trivia in the entire series: Lambdadelta got her top 3 spot after Episode 8 in the character polls after all.

She deserves it. I think episode 8 really helped lambda move from a fun but largely irrelevant character to a much more interesting one.The same way that one chapter 5? Made Natushi much more interesting

WAIT

How did Battler get saved from that closed room then. It was declared in Red where Shannon was

masterplum posted...

WAIT

How did Battler get saved from that closed room then. It was declared in Red where Shannon was

Shannon didn't save him

What

masterplum posted...

WAIT

How did Battler get saved from that closed room then. It was declared in Red where Shannon was

I think it was a timing Red Truth, iirc. Like how the eighth twilight had 'the culprit of the first twilight killed six people' came after the second twilight had happened, there was some wiggle-room for when the sealing was happening, maybe? Between the 'Shannon' and 'everyone else'? I forget.

masterplum posted...

What

The "trick" of Episode 6 is that Erika doesn't realize Shannon and Kanon are the same person. Beatrice uses that as a loophole for some of the murders (like who killed Nanjo).

Shannon and Kanon are fictional characters being performed by Sayo. Sayo stopped being Shannon and started being Kanon, left the room via the windows as was discussed in the red, Kanon saved Battler, and then Sayo stopped being Kanon.

I feel a little cheated by this answer.

Because there was a moment I started to suspect maybe they were the same person and it felt like the red truth made that impossible.

Feels like they could have written it in a way where that solution would obviously work instead of seeming to contradict the entire premise that they were the same person

After Battler left the room, Kanon reset the chain and hid in the closet. Sayo then killed off her Kanon persona

This just doesn't make sense

That's how it works though. Kanon is a role that exists or not based on Sayo's whims. Once Sayo decides they aren't being Kanon anymore, he stops existing.

Sceptilesolar posted...

That's how it works though. Kanon is a role that exists or not based on Sayo's whims. Once Sayo decides they aren't being Kanon anymore, he stops existing.

But then how would battler relock the door

No, Kanon locked the door after Battler left.

Sceptilesolar posted...

No, Kanon locked the door after Battler left.

But if Kanon ceased to exist??

masterplum posted...

I feel a little cheated by this answer.

Because there was a moment I started to suspect maybe they were the same person and it felt like the red truth made that impossible.

Feels like they could have written it in a way where that solution would obviously work instead of seeming to contradict the entire premise that they were the same person

Just because Shannon and Kanon are dead doesn't mean Yasu is dead.

Leonhart4 posted...

Just because Shannon and Kanon are dead doesn't mean Yasu is dead.

I thought this could be solved like a mystery

Beato is a master of exploiting loopholes in traditional mysteries.

Again, it goes back to the idea that Shannon and Kanon are roles and Sayo is acting according to the roles. When Sayo is being Shannon or Kanon, they exist. When not, they don't. If Sayo kills off the character, then Shannon or Kanon are dead, but they can also say that they've come back to life (implied in late EP3), and then they aren't. Though if Sayo dies, Shannon and Kanon will also die for good, like in the end of EP2. Regardless, Sayo is still there as a human, and most red truths don't apply directly to them because they're a Person X who isn't being named specifically.

masterplum posted...

I feel a little cheated by this answer.

yeah i felt pretty cheated too

especially after the red truths of like "no one is using a different name" bla bla bla

"oh well if you decide you won't use a certain personality again it's the same as them being dead" like uh huh yeah okay sure

ultimately i felt like the answer to most murders was "yeah that body that they said was dead actually wasn't" "oh, 6 people told you that door was locked but LOL they were all bribed" "oh you didn't notice that for 8 of these crime scenes we said there was no hiding spot but on this 9th one we didn't, haha yeah someone was hiding duhhhhh"

Erika would come up with a better answer

like so many of the explanations ultimately come down to "the entire servant staff was all on it and nanjo, and people who got bribed" at which point its like, well okay sure if they're all lying then i guess you can just do anything anytime, okay, sure.

That's what makes Episode 4 so wild because they tried to bribe Kyrie.

Dels posted...

like so many of the explanations ultimately come down to "the entire servant staff was all on it and nanjo, and people who got bribed" at which point its like, well okay sure if they're all lying then i guess you can just do anything anytime, okay, sure.

Which also contradicts the purple truth section of only people who murder lie

Sure that was later but at least make your rules consistent game. If you aren't going to spell it out for me then at least don't give contradictory clues like confirming in red it wasn't Shannon who saved battler

Honestly that one still bothers me the most because one of the first possibilities I considered when it said there was one less person on the island was Shannon and Kanon were the same person and the red truth made that impossible

tried to? and didn't succeed? i can't recall the details but wasn't she one of the people who said "yes we saw kinzo" and all the other stuff?

masterplum posted...

Honestly that one still bothers me the most because one of the first possibilities I considered when it said there was one less person on the island was Shannon and Kanon were the same person and the red truth made that impossible

hm yeah idk i remember i basically figured it out after they said that (though someone did give me a hint) and it was just so obviously the case that i didn't bother thinking about the red truths and stuff, figured there was some loophole or w/e so didn't really care.

Dels posted...

hm yeah idk i remember i basically figured it out after they said that (though someone did give me a hint) and it was just so obviously the case that i didn't bother thinking about the red truths and stuff, figured there was some loophole or w/e so didn't really care.

Yeah amusingly I'm almost sure it would have been more obvious in 7 if I hadn't went back and studied red truth to try to figure it out

Dels posted...

tried to? and didn't succeed? i can't recall the details but wasn't she one of the people who said "yes we saw kinzo" and all the other stuff?

Well, she played along at first, but I feel like she was partially responsible for the game going off the rails.

ah, didn't really remember.